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So for 80pts you get.

1. Ld 8
2. 9 Legionaires and a custodian
3. A troop choice
4. Special rules, Scouts, Stubborn
5. The Desperadoes crazy special rule e.g
1/3 chance of Lasguns counting as ASSAULT 2 not RAPID FIRE.
1/3 chance of Counter Attack, fleet and Furious charge.
1/3 Extra close combat weapon (oh and its rending!)

Seriously why is no one totting a 50+ of these as Troops they would literally tear things apart. Back them up with Tanks and Chimera's and you have a wave of sociopaths coming at you.

On another note I was thinking of making Colonel Schaeffer as a counts as Lord Commissar? Maybe using these models as they positively scream schaeffer IMHO, question is which one should i go for?
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290045

T3, +5 Armor, No power weapons, Only 10 guys, No Heavy/Special weapons. They can't take chimeras.
Powerblobs are almost always better. Also, generally you want at least 1-2 squads of meltavets to deal with vehicles.

Lord Commissar is generally a fairly substandard choice. If you want to run CC Guard, use Colonel Shaffer as either Creed or Straken. Furious Charge helps immensely.

Also, posting fairly exact rules is frowned upon here, I think. Just a heads up.

What, something like this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Ian%27s_Drade_117th_Suicide_Legion_%28IG%29

Outflanking rending guardsmen. Always good for a giggle!

I use a squad or two on occasion and they always deliver something, even if its not a game winning action. A look of genuine surprise on my opponents face usually lol

Ok so they are not uber brilliant, but they pack a nasty sting at a very cheap cost.

Maybe you could be interested in this one:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica%20Penal%20Legions

It is a try from me to sum up the capabilities of this unit (I play them almost since the codex came out)

Start by comparing them to their points in regular guardsmen.

Assault 2: 20 prisoners throw down 2 marines, and then charge in for another 2, (unless they get horribly mauled because they don't go first), or 7 GEQ. 30 guardsmen kill 3 marines with rapid firing or 10 GEQ. Damage-wise, they're roughly equal.

Fleet+FC: 20 prisoners charge into close combat and kill 1.5 marine or 9 GEQ. 30 guardsmen kill 4 marines or 10 GEq, just like last time. The guardsmen do more damage.

Rending+1 A: 20 prisoners charge into close combat and kill 3 Meq, or 10 guardsmen. Guardsmen do 4 or 10 again.

What we see is that the penal legionnaires do roughly the same amount of damage as their points in guardsmen, except they reduce their durability by 33% in order to gain outflanking.

Outflanking is nice, and there are times I'd consider taking them for non-fluff reasons, but legionnaires pretty much break even with their guardsman compatriots. Then when you add on things like that they can't be upgraded in any way and a bunch of other lost potential, you can see why few people take them.

That and...

Irdiumstern wrote:Powerblobs are almost always better.

For only 5 points more, you can buy 20 dudes with a commissar. When they charge, they kill 4 MEq and 9 GEq. They don't do any more damage right away, but as combat drags on over several player turns (which it usually does), the power blob pulls way out ahead. Plus, unlike taking 3 penal legionnaires, it doesn't leak KP like a sieve (especially once morale checks start being made).

It's not that penal legionnaires are BAD, it's just that they don't offer anything particularly "wow" when compared to other troops choices.

Penal legion are very much a "support unit," not a damage dealing unit. The squad pays a decent premium for the ability to scout and stubborn, and thus loses nearly all true damage capability. Toss in being the proverbial "third guy in a porn scene" next to the much more potent Veterans or Platoon, and they simply don't show up as a unit to build an army around.

Veterans do more damage, platoons hold objectives cheaper, and power blobs are more reliable in assault. Use penal legions for what they're good at: disruption and sheer opportunism.

They also compete with melta vets for the same force org slot.

5 units of penal legionaries seems like a bad idea to me, but 1 unit seems like an excellent idea. Yes the blob squad is better, but outflanking + stubborn + low point cost is very useful. 80 points makes them completely expendable, and they don't have to win to win. They are perfect for charging devastator squads or ork lootas in the back field, and even if they lose they win...example being if they charge long fangs and kill 2 of them before being wiped out after 4 rounds of CC they damaged a heavy weapons squad and stopped them from shooting for 2 turns.

Leadership 9 stubborn on an outflanking unit is where a lot of their points are. They can easily tarpit a defiler without extra CC weapons, a wraithlord, or a venerable dreadnought.

The most important thing to keep in mind with these guys is diminishing returns. The first squad of them is the most likely to be used in the best possible way, the 2nd less than the first, the 3rd less than the 2nd, and so on....

Its a shame that these poor fellas cant be in larger squads and "carry" demolition charges. What am I going to do with those old models? (no offense btw!)

schadenfreude wrote:

Leadership 9 stubborn on an outflanking unit is where a lot of their points are. They can easily tarpit a defiler without extra CC weapons, a wraithlord, or a venerable dreadnought.

Penal legion are only LD8. They still break ~27% of the time.

And as they don't have a commissar or are unlikely to be near a regimental standard, they don't get rerolls.

Like sentinels, they're harassment weapons. Useful, but you shouldn't take out too many points out of your meat and potatoes.

I think they're also more useful in infantry heavy armies that don't want to include an alraheem platoon. They allow some mobility and ability to reach a backfield that nothing else in an infantry gunline will have.

right, or if you're trying to run some sort of mass-outflanking army with al'rahem and creed and scout sentinels and harker vets and some vendettas, etc.

The big weakness is the lack of options for special weapons and their small numbers on the KP issue. However I think they have a real sting for what looks like a expendable unit. But best of all, they are troops so can capture objectives which is great if you draw an army out and then swoop in turn 3 or 4 off the board straight to the objective. This gives the Guard Army 2 turns to blast the units defending the objective and make their assault easier. All told though the IG have so many options they are brilliant.

schadenfreude wrote:They also compete with melta vets for the same force org slot.

5 units of penal legionaries seems like a bad idea to me, but 1 unit seems like an excellent idea. Yes the blob squad is better, but outflanking + stubborn + low point cost is very useful. 80 points makes them completely expendable, and they don't have to win to win. They are perfect for charging devastator squads or ork lootas in the back field, and even if they lose they win...example being if they charge long fangs and kill 2 of them before being wiped out after 4 rounds of CC they damaged a heavy weapons squad and stopped them from shooting for 2 turns.

Leadership 9 stubborn on an outflanking unit is where a lot of their points are. They can easily tarpit a defiler without extra CC weapons, a wraithlord, or a venerable dreadnought.

The most important thing to keep in mind with these guys is diminishing returns. The first squad of them is the most likely to be used in the best possible way, the 2nd less than the first, the 3rd less than the 2nd, and so on....

I agree, 1 or 2 squads should be it......

As I prefer platoon units over mechvets, it's not difficult to add penal legionnaires in my builds...I've used a single squad several times, and they were OK....not spectacular, but not lousy too...

mwnciboo wrote:This gives the Guard Army 2 turns to blast the units defending the objective and make their assault easier. All told though the IG have so many options they are brilliant.

The only problem with this is that if you're only taking like 1 unit, and the purpose is to get it onto an objective, then you really need an astropath to ensure that they arrive on the proper side of the board. Of course, if you take an astropath, they're pretty likely to show up on turn 2, before you've had a chance to do much damage to the enemy.

hmmm....I think a Mechanised Vet force with tanks as the main Armoured thrust, with 2-3 squads of penal legion as a distraction on the flank and some Artillery? My thinking is that hopefully the opposing player will be concerned with the flank and distract himself away from the main armoured assault. If he ignores it they can pile in to the Rear Echelon and cause some havoc.

I quite like my penal legion they are always funny and often usefull once in a while they are outstanding. Last game vs Blood Angels you should have seen the look on the BA players face when my penal legion came in from the flank multi assaulted 2 vindicators and ripped the main guns off both and immobilised one stunned the other(rending for the win). Important to note they don't get grenades.

Stubborn + outflanking with some extra ability for 80 points is a bargain for the IG. To get a similar combination would require some fancy list building involving some special characters and commissars. Of course they will not win the battle for you all their own. But soften the enemy back line or flank with shooting before the legionnaires arrive and they will be a pain. Support units with heavy weapons are especially allergic to this treatment.

I put mine into a Valkyrie. Scout the Valkyrie and then scout the legionnaires out for a ridiculously large potential deployment zone. Then they serve mostly as a sacrificial gimmic as they try to wipe out my enemies supporting units. It has worked pretty well for me in the past, but I tend to play with lots of deep strikers and scouts (sentinels and storm troopers) so lots of my force is around to help pretty quick.

I put mine into a Valkyrie. Scout the Valkyrie and then scout the legionnaires out for a ridiculously large potential deployment zone

You can actually do this?

No, you can't.

Scout moves work like normal movement, and I have yet to see where you can move after you disembarked out of a transport that moved 12".

Of course, this is all a touch silly, as you have to stay over 12" away from your enemy anyways, so it's not like you're able to get a 1st turn charge in with them or something.

Ailaros wrote:
Of course, this is all a touch silly, as you have to stay over 12" away from your enemy anyways, so it's not like you're able to get a 1st turn charge in with them or something.

Er yes you can get a 1st turn charge even with normal troops from a valk/vendetta. Scout 24" be 12" from enemy; turn one disembark 2"(more like 3" only sliver of base has to be within 2") move 6" and charge.

1st, it doesn't work because voluntary disembarking is done during the movement phase.

2nd, I'm pretty sure you can't pull off a 1st turn charge from a Valk. I've always measured the scouts 12" requirement to the hull, though you disembark from the base. Never really tried that hard to assault, though. /shrug

ElCheezus wrote:1st, it doesn't work because voluntary disembarking is done during the movement phase.

2nd, I'm pretty sure you can't pull off a 1st turn charge from a Valk. I've always measured the scouts 12" requirement to the hull, though you disembark from the base. Never really tried that hard to assault, though. /shrug

1st you disembark at the start of your movement phase (ie after the free 24" turbo boost which occurs before the 1st turn).

2nd I always use the base for measurement as it's more accurate (as opposed to trying to measure on a diagonal up into the air).

If you could disembark with your scout move (which you can't after the vehicle is moved), you can never use your scout move to get within 12" of an enemy model, regardless of if you're disembarking or not.

Sorry, but you just can't use this tactic and play by the rules at the same time.

You can 1st turn charge with guard.

1. scout move valk 12" away from target
2. during first turn, disembark = almost 3"
3. move 6" as you disembarked from a non-moving vehicle
4. assault 6"
5. blow up a stationary tank with meltabombs

The penal legion disembarking from scouting valk is of course not cosher

touche.

After this works exactly once and everyone realises that you're doing it, THEN you won't be able to use this tactic anymore.

Yeah, it's not extremely hard to deny, but it can catch opponents off guard. Some armies might also struggle somewhat with denying this. BW orks f.ex. will most often want to start as close to you as possible, and they might not have the units to stop it. (a guy that is successful with BW orks in my tourneyscene only have 4 BW's with guys inside at 1500pts, so he will struggle to deny it) As all BW's want to be within range of the KFF, they are often clumped up too, so you might get a multicharge.

Not something to be relied on, I think I've done it once or twice, but it is another trick the vendetta brings to the table. (doesn't help the penal legion though, vets are better for this assaulting role)