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They're pretty awesome, but only when you're also using blob squads. Alone they'll get very little done. I've done an army with 2 blobs and 4 penal squads (Meh, only 320 points. Less than certain terminator set-ups).

The blobs did most of the firing, but the penal guys got ALL of the assault dirty work. Half of them got the second rule. The others got the last one.

They have their niche, I'll say.

Ailaros wrote:touche.

After this works exactly once and everyone realises that you're doing it, THEN you won't be able to use this tactic anymore.

Yes but as has been stated it forces your opponent to take steps to negate it and this in it's own way is a big advantage.

this would be true, of course, if penal legionnaires actually did anything. I mean, if you do the above complicated thing AND get first turn without getting seized, all you're going to do to a slugga boys mob is give them a free D6" of movement before they get their first player turn.

I mean, yeah, as illumini said, at least they could get 10 free frag grenade hits on rear armor, but that's not exactly all that difficult to stop.

Ailaros wrote:this would be true, of course, if penal legionnaires actually did anything. I mean, if you do the above complicated thing AND get first turn without getting seized, all you're going to do to a slugga boys mob is give them a free D6" of movement before they get their first player turn.

I mean, yeah, as illumini said, at least they could get 10 free frag grenade hits on rear armor, but that's not exactly all that difficult to stop.

Except Penal Legion don't have grenades.

To be fair I was arguing that you can get a first turn charge. If you are going to do it then you are far better off using vets with demolitions 10 autohitting melta bombs for the win.

Ailaros wrote:touche.

After this works exactly once and everyone realises that you're doing it, THEN you won't be able to use this tactic anymore.

Your arguing againt a tactic that has proved successful in the past tense. You can't turn around and say; 'X happened last time so I'd better do Y' as what happens if your enemy implements tactic Z? Will you be happy to be caught off guard again only to lose the game, shake your fist and exclaim; 'Next time!...next time!' It might be a one-trick-pony tactic, but it worked against you in the game that 'mattered' (I use that with the most dripping amount of irony possible) so thats the most important thing.

You cannot exclude a tactic due to its one-time-use availability; doesn't a Deathstrike Missile slot into exactly the same category?

L. Wrex

It's a tactic like the four move checkmate in chess: it's not that works once, it's that it only works if your opponent allows it to work.

Polonius wrote:It's a tactic like the four move checkmate in chess: it's not that works once, it's that it only works if your opponent allows it to work.

QFT.

L. Wrex

exactly, except in chess, when you get your sneaky thing off, you win. In this case, you bounce a KP off of something, or just temporarily inconvenience your opponent at the most...

Uh huh, or force him to dedicate a portion of his force to deal with this 'inconvenience' thus granting you that extra turn of shooting that just may prove decisive.

L. Wrex

My friend fields exactly one penal legion squad. He holds it in reserve, prays it arrives turn 3 or 4, and sneaks it up near an objective to distract his opponent. Failing that, he doesn't lament the wasted eighty points.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:or force him to dedicate a portion of his force to deal with this 'inconvenience' thus granting you that extra turn of shooting that just may prove decisive.

This is basically THE motto of harassment units, like sentinels, and ratlings, and conscripts. The hope against hope is that you're annoying enough to your opponent that they will make a bunch of mistakes that you will soundly capitalize on.

Of course, even though it MAY prove decisive, it very rarely ever does, which is why so few people take sentinels, ratlings, conscripts, or penal legionnaires.

MekanobSamael wrote:Failing that, he doesn't lament the wasted eighty points.

Given that it's 2/3ds the price of a basilisk, which is actually likely to do something every game, perhaps he should...

Ailaros wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:or force him to dedicate a portion of his force to deal with this 'inconvenience' thus granting you that extra turn of shooting that just may prove decisive.

This is basically THE motto of harassment units, like sentinels, and ratlings, and conscripts. The hope against hope is that you're annoying enough to your opponent that they will make a bunch of mistakes that you will soundly capitalize on.

Of course, even though it MAY prove decisive, it very rarely ever does, which is why so few people take sentinels, ratlings, conscripts, or penal legionnaires.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I know plenty of people who have made good use of sentinels, ratlings and penal legionnaires (conscripts however, are junk). The issue is that it is difficult to qualify why these units are good outside of saying 'I once saw X do Y and it won me the game!' Looking at the units on paper they aren't that great, but this is why some units are terrible on paper and yet can perform surprisingly well on the table; its a matter of player skill at the end of the day.

Would I say the above units aren't that great simply because their usefulness isn't immediately apparant? No. I would say that it depends entirely on the skill level of the player using that unit, and how it amalgamates into his/her overarching battle plan.

L. Wrex

Be careful with dicussions about units that bring in player skill. There are units that become better in the hands of skilled players (melta vets are a good example), and then there are units that a good enough player can simply win despite having.

Actually I found penal legions more efficient than blob infantry most of the time. (Hard statement maybe but I never missed blobs nor did I fear them...)

How to use them is the key to get them heroic.

They have a big problem. They need many other supporting units in order to be effective. Which are:

Astropath -> CCS (Standard)
Storm troopers with meltaguns
long range support
more penal legions
faster scoring units already on the board

Their biggest advantage is, that the opponent does not know where the legion/s strike at the start of the game. So the legion player decides when to strike where and what.
And he can decide NOT to strike at all. This is very important.
If he has the choice, legions shouldnt fight at all, they should march. And if they fight, put 3 units of them at one target complementing each other and you will find them more effective than blob infantry.

Their advantage is they are stubborn MSU with first strike.

If you add points, you will see that a usefully equipped 30 man blob (commissar, 4 powerweapons 3 meltaguns) will be a small bit more expensive than 3 penal legions. Rather equal. But with 3 penal legions you do more than with a 30 man blob. You outshoot them with gunslingers (mobile 2 shots 24" is better than immobile frfsrf, you kill them in assault using all 3 of them or decide to tarpit them with 1 unit scoring with 2 others or you ignore them. And most important: The penal legions decide what they do, the blob reacts)

Still they have to be protected from rapid fire and flamers. Long range is not dangerous in the current metagame. So you need flanking melta chimeras to fill their anti vehicle lack and to have a shield. (storm troopers) and you need reliability in your flanking manoeuvering. (astropath) and morale for defending legions (standard).

So: Yes you have to build an army around them to be effective and you have to be experienced with them.

I recommend 3 of them together with 1-2 units of mechvets 1 CCS and 1-2 units storm troopers for a sneaky and highly versatile backbone and some selective big guns for the big damage. The rest is personal gusto.

Be careful with dicussions about units that bring in player skill. There are units that become better in the hands of skilled players (melta vets are a good example), and then there are units that a good enough player can simply win despite having.

To be honest: A good player can win with almost everything. I have seen a player getting top 5 with a store army and I have seen players lose mercylessly with top tier armies against rather decent opposing armies due to not understanding their army.

But there is a performance curve for every unit. There are units that increase their performance proportionally to the players skill.
And there are units that increase their performance exponentially compared to the players skill level.
And there are units that dont increase their performance significantly skilled player or not.

Example for 1: Almost every unit (a CSM unit with bolt pistols and chainswords and bolters and krak and frag grenades can be very deadly and a melta vet unit can perform very badly depending on the players skill)
Example for 2: penal legions (they can be weak guardsmen but they can also be a steamroller. It depends on the player.)
Example for 3: Manticore? (He stops getting more dangerous as soon as the player discovers he can fire directly and he can fire indirectly at the side armour with LOS without scattering disadvantage)

The leaders are called custodians for a reason. to clean up the remains after they get destroyed.

If you could pick their ability, even if for an additional say 10 points, then that woudl be worth it. Concern is that thier best use is determined on a dice roll prior to deployment ...

Their best use is harassment or scoring, no matter the die roll. You just have to be prepared to play them different ways.

schadenfreude wrote:

The most important thing to keep in mind with these guys is diminishing returns. The first squad of them is the most likely to be used in the best possible way, the 2nd less than the first, the 3rd less than the 2nd, and so on....

Ahh economics in wargames I love it

My good friend uses 2 units. They are great as a harassment unit and stubborn...keeps me from willing assaults from killing 5+ more guys in the assault....still damn LD9.....they also score.....and in a Valk/Vend......they can voom up and contest....and maybe hold the Obj.

They are LD8 which is actually the only downside of them.

The most important thing to keep in mind with these guys is diminishing returns. The first squad of them is the most likely to be used in the best possible way, the 2nd less than the first, the 3rd less than the 2nd, and so on....

I would argue to the contrary.

If all 3 kinds work together they are most devastating. 1 legion is nothing to worry about, 30 angry stubborn guys are hard to stop. (Their advantage over regular blob infantry is the possibility to choose whether to act together or separated and the ability to outflank. otherwise they work the same and (if you do the math) they are not less powerful if they need to act)

so we have the same situation as with blobs. 10 men are nothing, 30 are very annoying.

@ElCheezus

Their best use is harassment or scoring, no matter the die roll. You just have to be prepared to play them different ways.

QFT especially the last part sums it all up.

Although I'll go on the record as lamenting the "Gunsligners" roll. Last game I played I really could have benefited them coming on and taking out a vehicle, but both rolled for Assault 2 lasguns. With S3 and no grenades at all, they can only do that if they get either rending or FC. They ended up getting used for scoring, so they weren't useless by any means, but man they really need frag grenades sometimes. That 240 point Pask Vanquisher w/ Plasma Sponsons and HK was a juicy target. . .

That's why I like al'rahem. BiD with meltaguns has killed probably at least half of my vehicles.

I'd actually think that penal legionnaires would do well as a support unit to other outflankers. Al'rahem shows up with a bunch of dudes while creed throws in a couple demolishers, or a few sentinels show up, or some stormies show up to help, or some penal legionnaires arrive as a screen.

By themselves, I don't envision penal legionnaires doing all that much (just like outflanking a single scout sentinel or two), but, like adding another piece of AV12 to an AV12 wall, adding in some more outflankers to an outflanking mob would actually add some synergy.

Although I'll go on the record as lamenting the "Gunsligners" roll. Last game I played I really could have benefited them coming on and taking out a vehicle, but both rolled for Assault 2 lasguns. With S3 and no grenades at all, they can only do that if they get either rending or FC. They ended up getting used for scoring, so they weren't useless by any means, but man they really need frag grenades sometimes. That 240 point Pask Vanquisher w/ Plasma Sponsons and HK was a juicy target. .

Personnally I like psychos the least. The problem is with ini 4 they suffer most from the lack of grenades and they need their charge and this charge must be decisive. Against vehicles they dont do enough damage, they can only glance so you just win a turn with a not moving enemy vehicle but you are vulnerable to countercharges against a valuable scoring unit.

I love a screen of gunslingers. They are able to keep pace if advancing or retreating and still pour constant lasgun fire into the enemy out of a safe distance. If they get decimated you can still fall back behind your tanks and use them to score.

I'd actually think that penal legionnaires would do well as a support unit to other outflankers.

Or the other way round But, yes penal legions without support are far less powerful than with a good chimera shield that gets you the melta you desperately need to attack anything (storm troopers).
This is the advantage a blob has, he brings his meltaguns (if the enemy is arrogant or foolish enough to place any unit within 12" of the short edge).

That's why I like al'rahem. BiD with meltaguns has killed probably at least half of my vehicles.

Yes Al'Rahem has also some funny potential. Meltaing and then retreating out of counterdistance for example with his special order. But what I dont like about him is, that his platoon MUST outflank. This narrows his role, and for some reason I dont like platoon infantry (but that is personal ).
And I am not perfectly sure that his whole platoon is rolled for together concerning the side they arrive. (Rolling for reserves of course, but the roll where they arrive is after rolling for reserves and it is made unit per unit) If they reliably walk in at the same edge they are quite nice. If not, they are not so useful.
And I fear its the second.

I was shaking between Al Rahem and Penal Legions. I took Penal Legions for style reasons and today I dont want to miss them. Their dirty work is too essential and I love their strategic flexibility. Although I dont think they are better than Al'Rahems flanking force. I would estimate about the same performance.
And I am desperate enough to play even footguard without platoon infantry (well they get points problems if it gets to higher numbers though and they get little armoured support, but no chimeras... )

-Nazdreg- wrote:And I am not perfectly sure that his whole platoon is rolled for together concerning the side they arrive. (Rolling for reserves of course, but the roll where they arrive is after rolling for reserves and it is made unit per unit)

Pg.37 of the guard codex that the decision to blob is "made at deployment" after which they count as a single unit. Whilst waiting to arrive in reserves, they're already just a single unit.

Meanwhile, on pg. 96 of the codes, it says that platoons are "rolled for collectively when determining reserves".

Al'Rahem shows up with everybody all at once on the same side.

Thats true for blob squads in particular. Whats not 100% concrete is if, say, you had 3 x PIS in Chimeras and Al'Rahem in a Chimera whether they'd all get a single roll as to which board edge they arrive on or whether they all have to roll seperately (due to them being one 'selection' but multiple 'units')

L. Wrex