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Finally! after a long, long quest for the origins of a game I spend the better part of my teens with, I found the 2nd edition rules of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Some weeks ago, I also came across a site with old white dwarfs (WD 1 to 89).

FYI, I was 1 years old at the time of it's release.

I'd like to share some fun facts with you

1. Games Workshop's policy on scheduling releases has improved greatly
Far ahead of time, 80's GW announced a few supplements for their warhammer game, like Rogue Trader and the Lustria supplement. These supplements were often released in during the next edition of the game, like Rogue Trader (3 years) and the Realms of Chaos books Slaves to Darkness (3 years) and The Lost and the Damned (5 years). But one supplement is the winner of the contest is the Lustria supplement.
The Lustria supplement was announced in the pages of the 2nd edition book. I even think it was intended for release during the 2nd edition as GW was at the time, steering the background to be about an age of exploration similar to the real world renaissance and the discovery of America. The starter scenario for 2nd edition, "The Mighty Sven" was set in Lustria and was in fact "the magnificent Seven"/seven samurai with Dwarves and Norse as the magnificent seven/seven samurai and the Slann as the robbers. Also, the Campaign Pack "Bloodbath at Orc's Drift" was set in what we now call Nagarroth, featuring a human/elf/dwarf colony and their orc rivals. Two other Lustria based scenario's appeared in the Citadel Compendiums of that Era, one of which was called "Kremlo the Slann" the other "the Shrine of Rigg" which featured the Amazones and Norse (source: http://www.solegends.com/citadel/index.htm)

However, I think that the giant frog thing never really took of and only after 5 other editions did GW find they had established a popular enough race in the Lustria region to finally release a campaign supplement for Lustria aptly named "Lustria"... Was it worth the 20 years wait?

weeell... not if you were waiting for an all-slann frog fighting men army, Norse settlers or the Amazons

I guess they learned to curb their enthusiasm a little. It's always a let-down if you build expectations for the result of a grand project recently started, only to realize halfway it's not getting anywhere or is actually not as cool for your audience as you think. (though, I can't imagine the scenario's mentioned weren't played, they appear to be quite fun).

2. Everyone was Stubborn! unmodified leadership tests for all fighters!
Well, not exactly, but in 2nd edition warhammer, the only modifier on a break test was Rank bonus. Another aspect of losing combat was being pushed back 2" and the enemy being allowed to follow-up.

3. Chaos Warriors were far more powerful and had a seemingly appropriate points value
Chaos today is just not what it used to be. It has become so weak! There was a time a Chaos warrior had WS 6, S4, T4, W2 (yes, 2), 2 attacks and LD 9. True, a Chaos Warrior was 40 points, but could also be taken as a champion for any evil or Chaotic unit, a characterful use of such a powerful evil creature I'd like to see return... Instead of units of warriors, you get marauders with warriors of chaos as champions.

4. Freedom or freeform!
Potentially, you could include whatever you liked in a warhammer army. The battle bestiary gave some pointers on "fighting battalions" organized by race, but you were free to come up with other organizations and units. The point system (with all it's funny fractions like Dwarfs for 7,75 points) for DIY creatures was quite accomodating to your own immagination it appears.
... heh... a Vampire is 1250 points in 2nd edition, and could be of any race with most stats +3, shapeshifting abilities and lvl 4 magic. FYI, a Fighting Battalion is according to the rules, a force of up to 1000 points ("teehee! you can't include the vampire") and 3 of those make an army (how'bout now?).

5. GW claimed to strive for realism
Really they did! hence rules like "push back" and weapons that gave initiative bonuses?

okay, but they did say so.

6. It was much harder to hit and kill things in CC
The to hit chart was like the 7th edition "to wound chart", though you could get scores of 7-9 by rolling a 2nd d6 after first rolling a 6...
Hitting a creature with equal weapon skill or up to 1 point higher: 5+
Hit a creature with ws 1 point lower: 4+
2 points lower: 3+
3 points or more lower: 2+
minimum score to hit: 2+
The to wound chart has remained largely unchanged

7. Albion is actually nothing but medieval Britain, rather than pre-historic Britain
The immensly fun-read campaign pack Tragedy of McDeath was released for 2nd edition... and is based on McBeth (and players can get up to 3 extra victory points if they speak in rhyming verse!). An evil human warlord, his black sorceress wife and her Chaos hound and Orc and Goblin Minions face off against the son of the murdered king, his illegimate daughter and the great Earl of Hark Ness and clans McEwan and McCoughlagan!
Citadel made Highland Clansman models for this campaign!

8. Striking in initiative order is sooo 1984!
It's true, in WHFB 2nd Ed. none of that "charger strikes first" we've come to know since 4th edition! and now it's back, GW truly goes retro with edition number 8.

...

Maybe that means they're going to abandon their release schedule and finally release Warhammer Armies: Amazons!

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this info.

Awesome read, really fun to see how GW has evolved (or devolved in some respects).

Hey, really appreciate this post. Entertaining read!

Thanks for the kind responses. I'll try to get in some more fun facts on fantasy soon... It seems that 1st edition 40k gets all the fun while older editions of WHFB are only seldom mentioned.

Makes me nostalgic. I first had 3rd edition which sounds very similar. The bestiary was made up of monsters and races that simply described their alignment, such as god, neutral or evil etc, and you could ally anything that was fairly similar. There were a lot more mounts, you could have a regiment of giant slugs ridden by goblins if you wished.

The one thing I didn't care for was having four different psychological stats; Ld, Int, Cl and Wp. It was a definite improvement to just use Ld, especially as in many cases the stats for all four were the same number anyway.

The link below is for something contemporary to 2nd edition and you'll see the stats and the strange points values - 73½ - really?! Why not...74½? Or just...74???

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312556.page

You really had to buy White Dwarf then too, it was a real gaming supplement magazine, it detailed the months releases and the rules and background for them.

I will say that the half points, while perhaps foolish for something up around 73 or 74 points is a *great* idea for cheap troops. Putting half point upgrades in the skaven book is an excellent idea.

When it comes to cheap troops like goblins, who wants to increase their cost by 33% for a spear?

The push-back rule is incredibly realistic BTW, pushing enemy lines back is what would actually happen if you won combat, you don't stay locked in if you can help it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know this because i'm actually a foot soldier in the fantasy universe. Yeah, it happened.

Sigged!

Howard A Treesong wrote:

You really had to buy White Dwarf then too, it was a real gaming supplement magazine, it detailed the months releases and the rules and background for them.

Very much so. The downside being that old copies of WD became very ragged and tattered with pages clipped / torn out and kept in a binder for play. I remember having such a file with loads of Epic minutiae printed in it but it did my WD's no good! (back in the day when few people had access to photocopiers).

The only things we cut out were the new board tiles for space hulk because you couldn't photocopy them. Black and white could be done on occasion, but colour copying of a reasonable standard was unheard of.

Ordo Dakka wrote:The push-back rule is incredibly realistic BTW, pushing enemy lines back is what would actually happen if you won combat, you don't stay locked in if you can help it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know this because i'm actually a foot soldier in the fantasy universe. Yeah, it happened.

Oh that's rich.

Enjoyed this thread by the way. It was entertaining to note the differences.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Makes me nostalgic. I first had 3rd edition which sounds very similar. The bestiary was made up of monsters and races that simply described their alignment, such as god, neutral or evil etc, and you could ally anything that was fairly similar. There were a lot more mounts, you could have a regiment of giant slugs ridden by goblins if you wished.

The one thing I didn't care for was having four different psychological stats; Ld, Int, Cl and Wp. It was a definite improvement to just use Ld, especially as in many cases the stats for all four were the same number anyway.

Those psychological stats have become redundant over-time. Of the four, Ld was prominent for the break test and most psychology and WP was the stat that drove the magic system. Cl (coolness) was used on some psychology, like Frenzy, but could be overruled by Ld (of the unit leader) and Int was only there for the stupidity test. At least in WFRP 1st edition int was a more widely used stat and quite important to the magic system as it determined how many spells a wizard could know.

In WFB, Int could have it's uses (spot-checks? identify?) depending on the scenario, but otherwise, a waste of ink. WP was instrumental to the magic system but became redundant when GW turned it into a card game and subsequently the dice based system we have now.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
The link below is for something contemporary to 2nd edition and you'll see the stats and the strange points values - 73½ - really?! Why not...74½? Or just...74???

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312556.page

You really had to buy White Dwarf then too, it was a real gaming supplement magazine, it detailed the months releases and the rules and background for them.

I read that one on Stuff of Legends. Really awesome.

Practically all 80's era warhammer scenario's came with cardboard counters and terrain. The 3 campaign packs of 2nd edition had them too. I think GW was then, more a Game company with a miniatures range than a miniatures company with game rules. It's as if they understood that only a marginal group of their audience (15 years old boys at the time) would be able to game these scenario's out of the box without first investing in a lot of miniatures... and they wanted these games to be played. Hence their accommodating attitude... Though, the "starter-set with miniatures" is of course, a lot better then a few books and a heap of tiny pieces of coloured cardboard... the Terror of the Lichemaster counters are awful! It's like they've been drawn by a zombie with one eye!

On a personal note, it reminds me of something else: +/-1996, having no Warhammer models yet, and deeming 1/72 miniatures unsuitable for the job, I actually made my own paper High Elves and Goblins to play the introductory rules I got in a free leaflet from the LGS. These "miniatures" were pencil-drawn, a bit off-scale ('bout 2" tall) on normal A4 sheets and had a square base (of roughly proper size) also of normal paper. Just adequate for the purpose (1 model vs 1 model and 10 goblin archers vs 5 high elf spearmen were the "scenario's")... however, a deep sigh, a sneeze from one of the players, a swinging door or any other minor gust of wind could mess up the whole game!
I fear I have thrown them away at some point (got the real stuff), shame. Must have spent a whole saturday morning making them as I did not make just one of each and photocopy but drew each one separately... My intention was to actually make the whole starter set that way, in my own cartoony drawing style... but after drawing and basing some 30 odd paper figures I realized how cracking insane I was to attempt such a thing!

but then, I didn't really have something better to do at that rainy saturday morning

Red_Zeke wrote:I will say that the half points, while perhaps foolish for something up around 73 or 74 points is a *great* idea for cheap troops. Putting half point upgrades in the skaven book is an excellent idea.

When it comes to cheap troops like goblins, who wants to increase their cost by 33% for a spear?

There used to be a rule that troops under 5 points were able to buy their gear at half the standard cost. So while two handed weapons cost two points for regular troops, they only cost one point for goblins.

It was a pretty solid idea, although it did end up with the strange result that crappy troops tended to be as well or better equipped as decent ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordo Dakka wrote:The push-back rule is incredibly realistic BTW, pushing enemy lines back is what would actually happen if you won combat, you don't stay locked in if you can help it.

It's one of those interesting ideas that would end up pretty fiddly in play. I mean, it's cool that you can see the left flank start to cave in while the centre advances... but really? Shifting everything 2" (when movement trays were rare) just doesn't seem worth it.

Thanks for posting that was very fun to read!

I agree, very cool read . The "soooooooo 1984" line is funny to me, since I would've been 1 at the time

Herohammernostalgia wrote:Thanks for the kind responses. I'll try to get in some more fun facts on fantasy soon... It seems that 1st edition 40k gets all the fun while older editions of WHFB are only seldom mentioned.

You´re right there! I also love GW´s older games and editions and once had a "40k 2nd edition memories" thread going. But - like mentioned - I have never seen a WHFB thread. How about opening a general WHFB-nostalgia thread in the General Discussions Forum?

RiTides wrote:I agree, very cool read . The "soooooooo 1984" line is funny to me, since I would've been 1 at the time

Heh, I was already 2 then, ya youngin!

bigfood wrote:

Herohammernostalgia wrote:Thanks for the kind responses. I'll try to get in some more fun facts on fantasy soon... It seems that 1st edition 40k gets all the fun while older editions of WHFB are only seldom mentioned.

You´re right there! I also love GW´s older games and editions and once had a "40k 2nd edition memories" thread going. But - like mentioned - I have never seen a WHFB thread. How about opening a general WHFB-nostalgia thread in the General Discussions Forum?

TBH, I had considered to post the thread over there, but decided to put it over here because I deemed the topic WHFB Background

Another 8* fun trivia!

Today a look at the Slann, Amazons, Lizardmen and Troglodytes
1. The Old Slann Ones
In the darkness of the far future there are magic frog-men!
The Slann mage priests we know today, used to be a separate race in the first 3 editions of WHFB and in RT. In fact, it was the Slann who tied the two systems to each other!

The fluff is that the slann were this ancient race we now call "The Old Ones", who engineered all worlds of the universe. One such world was the Warhammer world. In 2nd edition, the Slann were powerful wizards (high int and wp) and were also rather able warriors on their own (comparable to humans), and mortal enemies of the lizardmen who they'd driven to live underground (more on that later)!
They also had access to science fiction weaponry (power weapons), Slann could take boltguns, laspistols, force weapons etc. In fact, almost the whole 40k arsenal of small arms would be available to them! Unfortunately, no rules for these weapons were available during 2nd edition... and the appeal of an army of giant frog-men alludes me... Maybe because I'm not a Bretonnian.

2. Amazons vs Beserkers
Now here is an odd-ball race of WHFB! A race of human-like women-warriors created by the Slann. Oddly enough, these Amazons could reproduce without the aid of men by some design of the Slann, but retained all functional body parts to that purpose for enjoyment (and the battle bestiary continues to tell us that most Amazons are too shy to do such things).
Being linked to the Slann, the Amazons could also use 40k weaponry. In addition the Amazon sisterhood included a sect of beserkers known as the Koka-Kalim.

3. Captain Caveman and the Leaping Lizards
The poor lizardmen in 2nd edition! The book tells us that the Lizardmen were the original inhabitants of the Warhammer world, but found unworthy by the Slann and driven underground, even below the Goblin lairs! The Lizardmen also had a subrace of Troglodytes, who were larger lizards. Nowadays we call these Lizardmen Saurus and Kroxigor... and in the Lizardmen army of today, the big scaly humanoids are in fact created by the Slann as warriors and workers, rather than being some barbaric race that should be tucked away in the deep bowels of the world!

4. Nothing is easier than casting a spell... provided you have sufficient constitution points
Instead of dice or cards, 2nd ed. wizards had "Constitution points", usually 10 CP's per level. Each spell costs a number of CP's to cast.
As long as your wizard has more than 12 constitution points, spells automatically succeed (!). If he has less than 12 he must roll below the total number of CP's he has left to cast a spell successfully. There is no miscast table.
Effected creatures could make a saving throw against magic by passing a Will Power test, this could be further modified by a casting or defending wizard by expending extra CP's.

well... that seems simple enough, doesn't it?

5. Today's Beastmen are so uniform!
Nowadays, all beastmen have the features and hind-legs of Goats and Sheep. in 2nd edition a Beastman could have aspects of any animal. That would make a unit of beastmen far more diverse for sure and suitably Chaotic.

6. Countless Magical weapons!
In contemporary Warhammer gaming, each race has about 50 magic items unique to them and access to slightly more than a dozen common magic items. Each of these items has a name and fixed rules.
How different things were in 1984! No single magic item needed to be the same!
How?
Magic items could be generated using a d100 table. Each d100 roll provided a special ability for the magic weapon, such as being extra effective against certain races, improving stats, decreasing stats etc. etc. Each ability cost a certain amount of points so you could fairly incorporate these random things into your army. The guideline was a to keep the number of magical weapons limited to about 2 for each side... yeah, let's keep things simple here

7. Hobgoblins are not what they're used to be
"AGAIN! Why does the Herohamnos keep going on about how everything was better in the 80's?!!!"

well... Straight from the battle beastiary:

Hobgoblins are large relatives of Goblins. They are almost as
aggressive as Orcs; quicker but not quite so steady in combat.
They are proficient, if crude, metal workers and often live amongst
other goblinoid creatures as smiths or miners. Like Orcs, they love
slaughter, preferring to slay captives in individual combat rather
than by slow torture as is customary amongst other goblinoids.
Hobgoblins speak the common Goblin tongue.
Physique. Hobgoblins are the second largest of the goblinoid races,
often reaching 6' and occasionally almost 7'. They resemble
humans more closely than an Orc or Goblin. Their faces are quite
human, although painfully ugly and sickening to look upon. Their
leathery, blemished skin is usually a deep yel lowish brown, and,
unlike most Goblins, they have a full head of black hair.

Same stats as Orcs except for -1 BS
They were also subject to Frenzy.
Now, they're the back-stabbing, over-cowardly slaves of the Chaos Dwarves, they used to be the elite of Goblin-kind, know they're just scum!

8. And one for the road
2nd edition featured a rule concerning Alcoholism. This was a variant on the stupidity rules. drunken units were unpredictable (and often overslept), and if they came near a possible source of liquor, they would go in and search for booze! Characters who got really boozed up obviously became quite useless.
Imagine an army of Norse bezerkers fighting a battle: a quarter of them hung-over, half the blokes not even turning up and the rest haring off to the Coaching Inn nearby to get another drink!

^ new Trivia!

Cool Keep it coming!

Sweet! Makes me want to get a hold of a 2nd edition rulebook now for funsies

I didn't want to necro this thread however this has been bothering me forever:

What's with the + statistics for personal characteristics?

For example if a model has a LD 10+3, Int 10+3 Cl 10+3 WP 10+3.

What does this mean?

Or if a model had a LD 9+2. If I could be enlightened as to what this means that would be fantastic!

I always wanted to start an undead army... lacking money...



those +x things are a bonus a character provides to the unit he is with if I am not mistaken. However I have the old books not at hand (PDF's, different computer) so need to check that. IIRC Only characters had these kind of stats so, yeah.

I just put Kremlo the Slann up for sale on ebay.co.uk along with some other rares (space santa and the motley crew Death Jester).
The item number for Kremlo is 290562824634 is anyone is after him. Yes, i know that was a blatant plug but I need to buy some more paint.