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They seem to be more closely in scale with historical miniatures, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but I remember lots of backers had mentioned that they didn't want the miniatures to be too thin and that something closer to DKoK would be their preference.
Given some comments on the kickstarter I think launching the follow up kickstarter might not be the best approach as some of the negative feedback might prevent some backers from pledging this time.

Must be a kick in the nuts to pledge an amount comparable to the cost of a 3d printer and receive 3d prints.


Shield Wolf, you really need to find a place that will make injection molds for you cheaper. If Wargames Atlantic can make random gak like giant spiders in plastic, there must be a way for you to afford something as relevant as plastic alternative Guardsmen. You have great sculptors and selling 3d prints is such a depressing step down from what you used to do.

Hi guys!

Just seen this :-)
They are all cast, nothing is 3d printed, we only use 3d prints to make our masters. We would have never imagined to 3d print 20,000 miniatures when we have casting facilities of our own after all.

The new project is now live and a last update is posted on the Immortalis to clear any questions one may have, we are far from flawless but decent hard working guys with a vision and a driving passion.
We know we won't please everyone (we have had comments that the Ogres are great and other comments that the Ogres are out of scale. Go figure...)
Shieldwolf Miniatures has always assumed any responsibility and will continue to do so. If you have more questions please stand by as in the coming days a number of YouTube videos is going to be launched from various independent reviewers, we invite you to watch them.

Thank you all for your consideration and support :-D

@Shieldwolf Miniatures: What is the major difference between the infantry and the larger items like ogryns in terms of casting?
You mentioned it is a different casting type, is it because of a different resin material, a different mix?
Mostly curious because colour and detail seem different between both types of models, in the previous pictures, more than I have typically found between resin models of the same producer.

@GreenScorpion
Yes, the infantry was cast in a thicker resin mix of our invention (we have experimented a lot and have been a few years now) that works for much larger temperatures. That's the downside, the good thing is the mould holds on for a LOT of production. The greyish color has nothing to do with it, we could pint it red if we wanted to. We found it nicer with a grey tint, that's why we went for that.

We find it holds details well but perhaps the pieces are too small and too many to tell. If we did this for larger miniatures perhaps it wouldn't even cause a discussion.
Of course it's the backers decision if they see it our way. Hopefully you will :-) If too many mention it, we can always cast like the Ogres, cannons etc. We are in possession of both methods and in our facilities.

The main problem with wolfcast is once the mould (which I'm not at liberty to reveal how it's made, only it's a pretty time-consuming process and heavy) is not used, after a few days it shows... production flaws. And we have no choice than to make another one. As long as we keep using it the mould works just fine. We are still trying to find out what is causing it to deteriorate and what we can do to fix it. When (and if) we do, we can cut costs down a lot and that would transfer to the overall retail pricing of the entire produced range. It will also discourage recasters from replicating our miniatures, small as we may be we have seen this happen and it's a costly affair we currently can do nothing about.

If you take a look at the video we just revealed today to coincide with the new "Immortalis - Desertum" KS, we think it's a pretty cool army and can be painted up very nicely and look pretty cool on a table.
(Disclaimer: this is ours by the way, not an "independent" YouTube channel. Independent reviews will show up in the coming days, we have sent production samples to a number of channels)




For any questions please don't hesitate to ask!
Thank you.


PS. It's late here in Athens, and it has been a long, snowy day. Therefore going to bed. Looking forward to 17 very interesting days ahead of us!

Not printed but cast? well you got me there, I was sure it was a (good quality) print, but I guess the lack of casting gates and the colour tricked me

looking forwards to seeing what you've got in store this time round

wonder if the issue with the wolfcast moulds is down to them being empty when your not actively using them ? Could you try leaving the final pour in situ? having the cavity filled would stabilise the shape, and keep the air away from the inner face of the mould... of course I've no idea how the mould will react to the resin if its left in there for ages

Funny the Imperium Desertum name has been bugging me for a while now, it just didn't look like a proper Latin name.

So I looked it up.

Latin for desert is in fact Desertum. Huh. Learn something every day. Same root as deserted.

Etymology. English desert and its Romance cognates (including Italian and Portuguese deserto, French désert and Spanish desierto) all come from the ecclesiastical Latin dēsertum (originally "an abandoned place"), a participle of dēserere, "to abandon".

@Shieldwolf Miniatures: You likely have considered this already, but if the casting process is done at a higher temperature and it is fine while you keep doing it, perhaps it is an issue related with thermal shrinkage/expansion?
As it cools off and waits in storage microscopic cracks could appear at first and when you heat it again it just gets "destroyed".
If that was the case a slower cool off process in an oven or something would likely attenuate or fix the issue.

I'll be frank, the price point for the stls is....not particularly great. Take the not-Krieg as the more valuable of the two sets. It's £53 for a dozen infantry, half a dozen cavalry, an artillery kit, and three not-gryns.

Right now, I can pick up Maker Cult's Valour Korps (not-Krieg). No faffing about with pledges and waiting. They'll do me the infantry squad for £11, the not-gryn squad for £10, and the riders for £10. They don't have the artillery kit, but I can pick up any variety of tank kits from them for a tenner. So you're about a tenner behind them in value on a day to day purchase; when you're a kickstarter? I mean, not only that, they knock 30% off their prices two or three times a year if I'm willing to put up with a little hassle.

The Tallarns are even worse, because it's a dozen infantry, half a dozen cavalry, and a quad bike. In other words, the deal is about twenty quid worse than the competition for IG stls.

I can get your 'everything combined deal' and shave it down to £88 for both sets. But really, I'm still overpaying compared to the competition. And that's just when we're discussing regular store price vs kickstarter here. In reality, I'll be subscribed to a patreon and have say eight months worth of Makers Cult for £88. Which consists of somewhere in the region of seven times the content of what you're offering for multiple armies.

Even purely on Kickstarter itself, it's poor value for money. Check out the Lunar Auxilia one up right now:-
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thatevilone/lunar-auxilia?ref=user_menu

I'm essentially getting about five times the KS content you're offering for two thirds of the price from a studio made up of one guy who also runs a Patreon on the side. I guess what I'm saying is that when your best-value tier Kickstarter offers me worse value for money than the full-price post-Patreon release of other artists and waaaay behind compared to other KS'ers and regular patreon releases, I just don't think I can indulge. Trust me when I say that not-krieg stls are not hard to find. I can think of two other producers than Makerscult, and one of them is actually free - though I accept that 'free' is hard to beat and that's why I used one of the other stl businesses as the point of comparison.

But as a consumer who spends a lot on stl's, I feel like you've really misjudged the current market value of those sculpts. I went to your page, looked at the stuff, thought it looked alright, and was ready to pledge. Then I looked at the price, and had to double check the page to make sure I hadn't missed two thirds of the army somewhere at that price point. As it is, it's just nowhere good enough a deal for me to get another round of not-krieg or some not-Tallarns. You might find a handful of people out for the Tallarns specifically (the only stls for Tallarns I know about are only just about to be released next month by one Patreon). But you've cut out the casual buyers.

Since the Desertum are new this KS the amount of stuff for them will increase as the KS funds just as the Imortalis did last time

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Since the Desertum are new this KS the amount of stuff for them will increase as the KS funds just as the Imortalis did last time

They'd need to add at least two full proper kits to either faction to bring them in line with the top price end of the market right now. And there's no indication in the stretch goals that such things are in the offing. If they chucked me a Chimera and Russ kit, I'd consider it, but as things stand right now, I'd be genuinely surprised to see them pull the sort of stl crowd that the Lunar Auxilia are right now or Gridwars just did. I suspect this one will primarily fund for and by the people who want resin casts, with a handful of print Tallarn devotees.

@Green Scorpion
The strange thing is that if we leave the moulds unused for 2-3 days, casts continue to be good.
If we leave them for 10 days or such, they will have problematic casting. It's something we are working on to figure out!

@Ketara
We don't aim at the STL crowd in particular, never have done that. The companies you mentioned above may not have casting facilities nor knowledge to operate them even if they did, plus they avoid all the issues with physical miniatures (QC, shipping, etc) which requires intense labour hours. On the minus side, the backers get to do all the work and pay for the materials, plus the cleaning up which as you probably know isn't the easiest or fastest way of going about.
We do listen to what people ask us for and we continue to try our best to serve them. Some asked for STL files? Sure, we can do that! With the amount of stuff prepared if the project manages to unlock even half of the SGs planned for, the value will be more than competitive.
On top of that, we again keep our stretch goals very close one to the other and we just launched, so we are very optimistic it is going to go well.
Upcoming YouTube videos featuring the new ranges will help boost this even higher :-)

@Kid_Kyoto
We all do learn indeed! :-D

(Edited for spelling mistakes) #blush

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

@Ketara
We don't aim at the STL crowd in particular, never have done that. The companies you mentioned above may not have casting facilities nor knowledge to operate them even if they did, plus they avoid all the issues with physical miniatures (QC, shipping, etc) which requires intense labour hours. On the minus side, the backers get to do all the work and pay for the materials, plus the cleaning up which as you probably know isn't the easiest or fastest way of going about.
We do listen to what people ask us for and we continue to try our best to serve them. Some asked for STL files? Sure, we can do that! With the amount of stuff prepared if the project manages to unlock even half of the SGs planned for, the value will be more than competitive.
On top of that, we again keep our stretch goals very close one to the other and we just launched, so we are very optimistic it is going to go well.
Upcoming YouTube videos featuring the new ranges will help boost this even higher :-)

If you've got sufficient extra content that starts piling up from people who want resin committing, you may well increase the value for the stl buyers to the point they pile in en masse. I can't see the goals, so I've no idea, and my comments were made purely in line with the original offering. At the same time, I believe your company has been stung before in expecting pile ons and stretch goals from people pledging, and then just watched it never actually materialise.

Otherwise, what you've effectively just said to me is 'Even if you're only buying digital files, we're increasing their cost to support our other unrelated overheads linked to physical production. Take 'em or leave 'em, but we're doing the customers a favour just by making them available'. Which, I suppose, is certainly a strategy, but I'm not sure it's the best marketing one! You might want to keep it on the quiet in future. I understand it, but others might start frothing a bit.

@Ketara: Kickstarter is crowdfunding platform and while some people are using it as a pre-order website or store front (like that lunar auxilia example), Shieldwolf is using to fund the entire project (3d models, production, handling, shipping...) and as such the objective is always the same regardless of the pledge type.
In essence that means that both stl and resin pledges are contributing to the same goal.
I am not saying I agree with the prices or anything, just that it does make sense from a crowdfunding perspective as opposed to someone who is essentially paying for 3d modelling hours spent (the lunar auxilia guy got more money in a week than I earn per year, so digital artists are not always poorly paid...).

@Shieldwolf Miniatures: I think one of the issues with the previous kickstarter was a lack of engagement to get the stretch goals running, even if you vote for them, there is no visibility to the list of potential goals coming up. A more forward vision should help reach higher funding, like a line up of the next 10 potential goals depending on the voting. In the previous one sometimes the goal was reached and there was no indication of what came next so funding stalled.

I am rather sure you already know this system, but would Siocast https://www.siocast.com/ be something for massproduction of your miniatures?

 GreenScorpion wrote:
@Ketara: Kickstarter is crowdfunding platform and while some people are using it as a pre-order website or store front (like that lunar auxilia example), Shieldwolf is using to fund the entire project (3d models, production, handling, shipping...) and as such the objective is always the same regardless of the pledge type.

That's well and good, but if there was say, a separate option for a pack of dice, I wouldn't expect to see it sell at £100 on the basis that I'm supporting the resin casting of the models. Likewise, I don't usually expect to see a virtual computer file funding resin casting and given an inflated price as a result

I can understand the rationale of the owner, but that doesn't translate to being willing to support it as a consumer. At the end of the day, I have other options at better prices.

I am not saying I agree with the prices or anything, just that it does make sense from a crowdfunding perspective as opposed to someone who is essentially paying for 3d modelling hours spent (the lunar auxilia guy got more money in a week than I earn per year, so digital artists are not always poorly paid...).

It actually doesn't make sense that the crowdfunder would be more expensive. Normally, you expect a discount for helping bring a project to fruition. This is the very opposite. Furthermore, a crowdfunder is -theoretically- to pay for future developmental costs, in this instance, the product is already made. Shieldwolf already knows exactly what the costs were purely for creating the digital files. Even if the stl costs cover that section alone and nothing else, they'd still be subsidising the resin end of the project (as you don't need another set of models 3d sculpted).

The fact that the stl backers are expected to fork out not only to cover the sculpting costs for the resin buyers, but also the resin production costs? That's why the price is so high for stl buyers, and that's why I won't touch it as a result. I respect the decision of the owners to try and make an extra buck, and I respect their decision to try and get a separate segment of their consumer base to underwrite the expenses of a separate more expensive process. But again, that respect does not equate to access to my wallet.

If a substantial chunk (i.e. double what's currently there) of additional stuff unlocks, I'll happily revise my opinion, but until then, I'm afraid that's the way it is.

For people who like hard data, here is the current numbers for the resin pledges in terms of models, price and price per model. This includes stretch goals unlocked and all individual models are counted as 1 (terrain models, artillery pieces, soldiers...).



The desert troops have more infantry based forces, so model increases.

@Ketara
I don't understand why you misinterpeted so much what we are saying and therefore drawing conclusions that are not true.
We said that we got contacted from people whose only interest was in STL files. We had never done that (you can check if you don't believe me), we have after all invested time and funds to have our own casting facilities, we provide resin miniatures and work with Renedra for our plastic kits. Why bother with digital files? Regardless, we decided to supply STLs all the same. The prices are what they are, we did the best we could. Math is what it is and we are very scrutinous and methodical when it comes to numbers, that's why we always are 100% sure we will deliver, we have a perfect track record and we mean to keep it.
If you believe we should have done better, very well, you have stated so. Don't take me wrong, feedback received and feedback is something we are looking for. You saying however we are "using STL backers to support the resin production" is something we never said nor implied. We did the best we could to service that section of the market that would have never pledged on our project had we not provided what they asked for, I think it's as simple as that, surely you'll agree on that. :-)

@Grobotz
We have been looking into developing our own casting technology but also looking into working with others, yes. Siocast is someone we have heard of, not done any business with them however.

@GreenScoprion
You are right. We'll see how to inform people of the following unrevealed pile of SGs in the next update.

On a different note, here's a first review from the Immortalis project




Thank you everyone :-)

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:
@Ketara
If you believe we should have done better, very well, you have stated so. Don't take me wrong, feedback received and feedback is something we are looking for. You saying however we are "using STL backers to support the resin production" is something we never said nor implied.

Errr....what? You said earlier:-

The companies you mentioned above [i.e companies which deal in stl files] may not have casting facilities nor knowledge to operate them even if they did, plus they avoid all the issues with physical miniatures (QC, shipping, etc) which requires intense labour hours.

This was the reasoning you provided for the high prices. The only reason that casting facilities would figure into the pricing equation for selling stl files; is if you were using funds gained from selling stl files to subsidise resin production. Otherwise, why mention it? It's irrelevant. Your costs for digital sculpting don't go up because you have a guy casting three doors down. If anything, they reduce the stl costs to virtually nil, as you've already got stl files to hand from getting ready to make models to resin cast.

We said that we got contacted from people whose only interest was in STL files. We had never done that (you can check if you don't believe me), we have after all invested time and funds to have our own casting facilities, we provide resin miniatures and work with Renedra for our plastic kits. Why bother with digital files? Regardless, we decided to supply STLs all the same. The prices are what they are, we did the best we could. Math is what it is and we are very scrutinous and methodical when it comes to numbers.

There's two ways you could be accounting and squaring the price and sales of your stls. It has to be one or the other, and I'm getting confused which it is.

The first regards the stl sales as a mere incidental to a resin model Kickstarter project. You did some digital sculpting to make masters, which you then resin cast for the KS. Meeting the design and resin casting costs out of resin sales is the goal, and that's your primary target/market. If you achieve this in your KS, objective fulfilled. This is what the above post indicates is the case.

If that is the situation, then any stl income is just a bonus. It's extraneous. It's not factored into the financial planning for the project, and it costs the project absolutely nothing, because the files were already made for the design step in resin casting. Any income from it is surplus and basically the equivalent of sprinkles on your resin ice cream. You hope that you'll make the most extra money by charging the existing price for the stls, but don't really care one way or the other. If it works, great, if not, well, you met your financial goals on the resin sales, so it doesn't really matter.


The second way of accounting for this is to incorporate it all together (as your first post suggested). When doing the financial planning for your Kickstarter, you sat down and estimated X income from stls, and Y income from resin sales. You're combining the projected income of the KS from both revenue streams, and then discounting the cost of the project against it. If this is the case, then you set your stl prices with the intent of using the income from their sales to offset the combined cost of the other parts of the project (which includes the resin casting and production side of the KS). At which point, stl sales are helping subsidise the resin casting end of the business.


You've implied now that both are the case, but both are not possible. Which is it? Are the stl prices as high as they are because the income is extraneous and prices are set where you think they'll bring maximum extra profit? Or because they're a fundamental part of the financial calculations for the whole project, and they have to sell at that for the project as a whole to break even?

In either case, my saying that the stl's are too high for my casual spending (and I spend probably £200 a month on them) is valuable data. If enough other people feel the same as me, (which they may not, I might just be an outlier) it means (1) you're either not getting all the possible extra cash you could (if the income was surplus), or (2) you've fundamentally miscalculated the market price for stls (far more dangerous if it's an integral part of the project breaking even).

I actively want you to succeed in selling stls right now, not so much for my own case (I have several stl armies of IG), but because you guys make good stuff. If the prices are just too damn high, and people consequently don't bite; you may well conclude that stl sales are too minimal to be worth pursuing and just drop them as an option in the future. And that cuts down on my options for purchase in the future!

@Ketara
Perhaps we did price the STLs too high? We don't know, we have no prior experience on this type of service. This is however what we calculated and that's the price tag we placed.

Just to be clear, I do believe you that you mean well for us, you wouldn't be writing all this to explain your reasoning if you didn't care.
What I was saying above regarding casting facilities (we have absolutely no issue whatsoever with people providing solely STLs, just to be crystal clear on that!) is that since we have already established a way of providing physical miniatures to our supporters, perhaps STLs are not the way for us. Or they are, and we have simply not got it right? Probably?
After the project has concluded (because the last thing we'd ever do is change something on a live project, we keep with the numbers we calculated, always!) we will re-consider, restudy, revisit (I don't know what sounds better, probably the last). :-)
Detailed feedback like yours can make a whole lot of a larger difference for us and the progress of a future project. We respect that.

On another note, yet another video from an independent reviewer was published today (SPOILERS!)

@Shieldwolf Miniatures: I have some questions on your kickstarter, so if for example I pledged for a gold reward level and later added on the pledge manager funds for another gold reward level, would I get twice the unlocked goals? Would it be different if I pledged for immortalis and desertum or just 2 of the same type?
Does the pledge manager allow the usage of things like paypal to add additional funds?

 GreenScorpion wrote:
@Shieldwolf Miniatures: I have some questions on your kickstarter, so if for example I pledged for a gold reward level and later added on the pledge manager funds for another gold reward level, would I get twice the unlocked goals?

Affirmative.

 GreenScorpion wrote:
Would it be different if I pledged for immortalis and desertum or just 2 of the same type?

If you pledge for the Immortalis, you get all the freebies associated with that pledge. If you pledge for two Immortalis bundles that both have the Gold medaglion, e.g. 1x Starter Army and 1x Campaign Army you will receive the freebies unlocked for the Immortalis twice. If you instead pledge e.g. for 1 x Starter Army Desertum and 1 x Garrison Army Immortalis then you get 1 x the freebies for Gold that are meant for the Immortalis and 1 x the freebies under the Gold level that are meant for the Desertum!

 GreenScorpion wrote:
Does the pledge manager allow the usage of things like paypal to add additional funds?

Affirmative.

Going well, although we expect a slow Sunday to come with the inevitable KS slow down after the initial launch.
On another note, here's a new YouTube video with painting tutorials, this time from Spain! (thankfully for us who don't speak Spanish there are English subtitles)

Values for the updated pledge levels for resin, based on the current unlocked stretch goals:

I was going to point that Angel weathering video. I was wondering where that mini came from. Lol

I have a box full of old Tallarns and am looking forward to Ogryns and special/heavy weapons to supplement them!

@Shieldwolf Miniatures: Any chance you’re thinking about making the pseudo-camels available without riders to allow those of us with desert nomad style guardsmen to have them ride the same mounts as your Imperium Desertum models? I had a solution I was planning on using with the 10 RR models i currently have, but I’d be interested in them if the pseudo-camels were available as an option.

I saw there were some pack options, but I’d be looking for pseudo-camels with saddles to allow riders to fit.

Valete,

JohnS

@SlaveToDorkness
We really like Angel's work and we think collaborating with these channels (that make the hobby so much more worth it) is a right step for all parties involved; the sponsoring company, the artist who runs the channel and the viewers who follow it and that way support it! :-)

@cygnus
We'd love to service you but that's not possible I'm afraid. We have listened to feedback and one of the requests was to make lesser parts and facilitate assembly. We get better because you make us. Everything in this project has been designed that way (and camels are one of the bigger models so more parts involved). This is what you are asking looks like! :-)

Just to chime in here on what Ketara has been saying - the STL prices are inded quite high. I don't know how you guys calculated them, but perhaps a better method of "calculation" would simply to have been to take a look at what others charge for similar numbers of files.

Additionally, I'm not sure if stretch goals work so well when tied to the concept of STL files. An offering needs to be worthwhile from the initial day and get better from that point onwards - just like it does with physical models. That looks like it would mean starting with a much lower price for the STLs from the first point, or more STLs on offer than physical models.

I mean, I'm only posting this here since I saw the discussion between you and Ketara, and specifically the bit where you said he's the first to mention it to you. Most people will take a look, shrug, and then just quietly move on rather than letting you know. Hell, that's what I did until the above.

 Shieldwolf Miniatures wrote:

@cygnus
We'd love to service you but that's not possible I'm afraid. We have listened to feedback and one of the requests was to make lesser parts and facilitate assembly. We get better because you make us. Everything in this project has been designed that way (and camels are one of the bigger models so more parts involved). This is what you are asking looks like! :-)

Spoiler:

@Azazelx
We appreciate once more the feedback, we know you mean well for us. Well, at this point it is what it is but we will be revisiting it next time. We can only learn after all from each of our projects!

@cygnnus
We might have not succeeded some times in our communications but we try being as open as possible to avoid any misunderstandings. Like we said above, we are what we are because of you :-)

Moving on to our next stretch goal and establishing the "Add-on Monday" in our Kickstarters, meaning every Monday we will be showing off add-ons to help boost the armies.
Here's the one for the Immortalis and a teaser for next Monday's Desertum add-on. Thank you all once again for the consideration.

Overall picture of how we are doing, we appreciate the support and think you've already done a great job so far! :-D





and the official video that went up :-)



Thank you!