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(we all love GW, but we all complain about it, but things could be a lot worse. Let's check in and see how they're doing in an alternate universe...)


So with Target clearing out their 40k booster packs at 40%, 50% off I've been stocking up. Last night I cleared out my local Target and got 10 packs! Most of them were from last year's Siege of Vraks release but I got 2 Battle of Macragge boxes and even a beat up old Dark Millennium box that must have been in the storeroom since GW switched to the collectable format back in 99. It's weird to see the old cards and models and some of the dropped factions like Chaos Eldar and Genestealer Cults.

Anyway as usual I got a lot of crap, 4 Death Korps, 6 Blue Horrors (and no Pink Horrors of course, why did they make the Pink rares and the Blue commons? Was it just to mess with us?), 2 Ratling Cooks and a Rhino gunner – HELLO! There hasn't been a Rhino released since the Grim Darkness huge sets 4 years ago! And no one uses them! But they put a Rhino gunner in Vraks and even made him an uncommon. I don't know what they're thinking sometimes. The Death Korps are just guardsmen with 20 wounds so I don't know if they're worth the extra 2 points. And what's with putting a Striking Scorpion in the set? This is supposed to be an Imperial vs Orks & Chaos set, why waste a slot with one Eldar? Why not save him for Doom of Iyanden next year?

But there was some gold in there, I got 2 Marneus Calgar-Hero of Ultramar and swapped one for Sly Marbo-One Man Army. I tried running Sly with St Celestine, Eisenhorn-Hereticus and a Blood Axe Warboss and did pretty good. My buddy runs a Horus/Bloodthirster tag team that usually kicks my butt but Sly's 'He's Behind You' rule finally let me get him. Calgar ain't bad either but Marneus Calgar-Master of the Ultramarines from Armaggeddon War is a lot better. A guy at my shop runs him with Leman Russ-Wolf Lord and 3 Rough Riders and he wins like 90% of the time.

Like I said the Dark Millennium box was pretty cool. One funny thing is how much better the sculpts were back then, I guess GW is getting cheap now, we hardly ever see complex figures or detailed paintjobs, now most marines have just 3 colors on them and they stopped making Catachans back around the time Horus Heresy came out and replaced them with Death Korps cause coats are easier to paint than skin. I got a Genestealer Hybrid (pretty cool, a Tyranid model with a heavy stubber!), a Chaos Eldar Warrior (I don't have any other Chaos Eldar so he'll go on ebay), an Ultramarine with a Plasma Gun (always useful), a Catachan Captain (50 wounds, stealth, power weapon and gives +2 attack to Catachans within 6 squares), a grot (like I don't have a million of them already, still it's cool to see the old sculpt), an Arbites (seeking shells ignore cover! Totally overpowered in today's metagame), and my rare was Norkk Deaddog! I can't decide between keeping him (bodyguard and 110 wounds? Yes please!) or ebay ($30 for a model? Yes please!).

By the way, speaking of old models, last week some guy came into the shop with old pre-collectable GW stuff. They were wierd made of like stiff plastic and metal and pretty ugly too, it looked like he'd painted them himself or something. Anyway he tried to play them using stats he'd printed off the internet but we didn't let him. We were like if you want to play pick up the Assault on Black Reach starter and some Fall of Medusa V boosters and let's go but take your little homemade army men away. The guy just left, didn't even buy anything, what a dork.

Anyway got some great buys and I can't wait to try out my new Crisis Suit/Eisenhorn Renegade/Kroot squad this weekend!

Im litterally so confused after reading this...

fire4effekt wrote:Im litterally so confused after reading this...

(in the alternate universe 40k is a pre-painted collectable game)

fire4effekt wrote:Im litterally so confused after reading this...

He is talking about the Emperor's Tarot cards used by the Imperium and how they predict the thoughts and will of the Emperor.

So in essence, he is doing the will of the Emperor.

Do they have actual rules that update periodically and fix truly underpowered models and armies? Do they run forums and answer rules questions? Do the answers to pertinent questions that make massive differences in army list and play happen in under 12 months? Do they issue FAQs that directly contradict RAW and break entire armies?

Because the awfulness of this universe (beyond the fact that the CCG format doesn't work for minis) has not at all been proven.

That being said, I would like to see a Star Wars Miniatures version of Warhammer 40k. Maybe I'll go design that right now!

Point costs will have to be a no-no for right now.

Kid Kyoto, if you're interested I will send you stats for Marines and Guard for SWM later.

RisingPhoenix wrote: (beyond the fact that the CCG format doesn't work for minis)

Well, D&D got it to work for 10 years. Also, Star Wars had a good run.

RisingPhoenix wrote:Do they have actual rules that update periodically and fix truly underpowered models and armies? Do they run forums and answer rules questions? Do the answers to pertinent questions that make massive differences in army list and play happen in under 12 months? Do they issue FAQs that directly contradict RAW and break entire armies?

Because the awfulness of this universe (beyond the fact that the CCG format doesn't work for minis) has not at all been proven.

In the Alternate Universe rules for each model are printed on cards and, except for rare erratta, do not change. Underpowered models are just not played while overpowered ones are just not reissues and become valuable in the secondary market. Sometimes a new model is created to specifically nerf an old overpowered one the way Captain Sern-Gray Knight Hero was designed to counter Angron squads or how Horus-Lord of Chaos was designed to beat Sanguinius-Blood Angel Primarch.

That being said players tend to graviate towards a handful of proven squads like Eldrad/Jayne Zarr or Loyalist Horus+Solar Maccharus. There is of course no such thing as fluff or cheese in a game like this, if it's legal people play it.

As for collectable minis, D&D, Star Wars and Hero Clix have all done well, several others have had fair to middling runs. If it can happen to Battletech don't for one second assume it can't happen to 40k.

Hold on - in the alternate universe, is 40k actually Warmachine?

nah, its MageKnight

Kid_Kyoto, that was worthy of a place as a one-shot short in 2000AD! The horror! The horror!

Kid_Kyoto wrote: Underpowered models are just not played while overpowered ones are just not reissues and become valuable in the secondary market. Sometimes a new model is created to specifically nerf an old overpowered one the way Captain Sern-Gray Knight Hero was designed to counter Angron squads or how Horus-Lord of Chaos was designed to beat Sanguinius-Blood Angel Primarch.

That being said players tend to graviate towards a handful of proven squads like Eldrad/Jayne Zarr or Loyalist Horus+Solar Maccharus. There is of course no such thing as fluff or cheese in a game like this, if it's legal people play it.

I don't know about Eldrad/Jain Zar, they were a good combo until "There Is Only War" if you threw in some Dire Avengers but most savvy players liked the Harlequin spam. Of course both of those builds are pretty obsolete with the Culexis Assassin/Inquisitor with Psycannon builds. In fact the Eldar just haven't really been the same in my area since the Inquisitor with Psycannon was released.

That being said, I'm not sure what the designers were thinking. The Inquisitor has 55 wounds (waaay too good, even if he is an Inquisitor!), a suit of concealed powered armor, AND a psycannon. I'm not even including the digital weapons and the combat drugs. Pretty much a fething tank. I bet that he could take on the Emperor. Seriously, I looked on eBay and he's around 50-60 bucks. That's if you're lucky. Even "Angron, Chosen of Khorne" only hit 45 and he was more or less unstoppable.

That's why I am now including a couple Imperial Guardsmen with Vortex Grenade Launchers in my lists now, so that I can take out bastards like that. Of course, then again one of them goes for around 15-20 bucks and they're uncommons. Yeesh.

:edit: Hey KK, have you had problems with people cherrypicking the Catachan Devils in "Death Worlds of the Galaxy"? The things are so damn heavy that you pretty much know if an adult male Catachan Devil is in the booster. I want one for an Ambull list but I have yet to pull one and I don't feel like paying the 40 bucks on a website to buy one.

I gotta say, I like knowing what's in the boxes and blisters I buy... they're much better than booster packs!

(one thing about collectable games is popular characters like Superman or Darth Vader get multiple releases so you have dozens of versions and have to remember that Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi General is different from General Obi Wan Kenobi. Also each wave gets its own name so you might have Stormtrooper from Galaxy at War, who's different from the Stormtrooper in Rebels and Imperials.)

Vladsimpaler wrote:

I don't know about Eldrad/Jain Zar, they were a good combo until "There Is Only War" if you threw in some Dire Avengers but most savvy players liked the Harlequin spam. Of course both of those builds are pretty obsolete with the Culexis Assassin/Inquisitor with Psycannon builds. In fact the Eldar just haven't really been the same in my area since the Inquisitor with Psycannon was released.

That being said, I'm not sure what the designers were thinking. The Inquisitor has 55 wounds (waaay too good, even if he is an Inquisitor!), a suit of concealed powered armor, AND a psycannon. I'm not even including the digital weapons and the combat drugs. Pretty much a fething tank. I bet that he could take on the Emperor. Seriously, I looked on eBay and he's around 50-60 bucks. That's if you're lucky. Even "Angron, Chosen of Khorne" only hit 45 and he was more or less unstoppable.

I think you're overstating it, Psyquisitor is good against Eldar but that's pretty much what he was born to do. Any solid beatstick like Ghazgull-Conqueror of Armageddon or even your garden variety Dreadnaught will squish him. Against some of the low-end Emperors like Emperor-Unifier of Terra will go down but not the real Emperors like Emperor-Master of Mankind or Emperor-Star Child. Sure he can probably take down Emperor-Prisoner of the Golden Throne but let's face it if you're letting someone get LoS on Throney you deserve to get taken down. Throney is there to be a psy-battery for Ravenor or Mephiston and stay out of sight. Alternately you can use him with an Astorpath spam force but that's a one-trick pony.

That's why I am now including a couple Imperial Guardsmen with Vortex Grenade Launchers in my lists now, so that I can take out bastards like that. Of course, then again one of them goes for around 15-20 bucks and they're uncommons. Yeesh.

Yeah but the reason for that is the VortIG was an uncommon in Rogue Trader. That set was even before Dark Millennium and never got released outside the UK, I think that was when they were still debating between going with collectible minis or staying with the old kind. I've even seen totally unplaying figures like the Squat Bezerker (a melee fighter with a move of 3?) go for $5 on ebay just for collectors market. And of course VortIG is totally overpowered in numbers. Sure 1 guy who might vortex you on a 16+ is fair, they never really considered that a singles market would appear and people would be able to put together squads with 10 vortIGs. That's why they banned all Rogue Trader models from GenCon.

Hey KK, have you had problems with people cherrypicking the Catachan Devils in "Death Worlds of the Galaxy"? The things are so damn heavy that you pretty much know if an adult male Catachan Devil is in the booster. I want one for an Ambull list but I have yet to pull one and I don't feel like paying the 40 bucks on a website to buy one.

Tell me about it, my buddy and I split a case of Death World boosters and didn't draw one. I wonder if the staff at the store aren't cheery picking them before they put them out. Also I never managed to draw a drop pod from the Planet Strike release. My buddy got one and practically uses it every game - BAM! Turn 1 and you've got Leman Russ, an Ironclad Dread, a Catachan with a Heavy Flamer and 3 servo skulls in your face. Sure I could take a Guardsman with a Quad Gun but with an Attack of +4 he's not going to hit, so then you need the Van Saar Weaponsmith, a mystic and a sage. Before you know it you're sopending 85 points to stop 1 30 pt drop pod. Sure if you get off the AA shot he's screwed but then you've got 85 points that are almost useless against a normal squad. Now that's broken.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:(one thing about collectable games is popular characters like Superman or Darth Vader get multiple releases so you have dozens of versions and have to remember that Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi General is different from General Obi Wan Kenobi. Also each wave gets its own name so you might have Stormtrooper from Galaxy at War, who's different from the Stormtrooper in Rebels and Imperials.)

So there are things in these collectible games that have the same name, but different rules between releases?

Wow... that really is different from GW rules.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:(one thing about collectable games is popular characters like Superman or Darth Vader get multiple releases so you have dozens of versions and have to remember that Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi General is different from General Obi Wan Kenobi. Also each wave gets its own name so you might have Stormtrooper from Galaxy at War, who's different from the Stormtrooper in Rebels and Imperials.)

So there are things in these collectible games that have the same name, but different rules between releases?

Wow... that really is different from GW rules.

They have slightly different names and different rules. But it doesn't really matter since the rules are either on a card or for Clix on the base.

Or was that sarcasm

Have you guys seen what preorders for the Decapitator are going for on ebay? I mean sure people are excited to finally get a model for him again since they haven't released one since Dark Millennium, but really he doesn't seem that great, I mean come on 25 wounds with no armour?

I love the detail on some of upcoming minis from "Return of the Dark Kin" though, haven't seen something like it in years.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Or was that sarcasm

What do you think?

Im not sure which is more confusing...

1. Lack of sufficient structure to the OP.

2. The fact the OP is happy to buy Pre-painted Plasticrap

3. The fact GW has been proven to release this crap at all.

RisingPhoenix wrote:Do they have actual rules that update periodically and fix truly underpowered models and armies? Do they run forums and answer rules questions? Do the answers to pertinent questions that make massive differences in army list and play happen in under 12 months? Do they issue FAQs that directly contradict RAW and break entire armies?

Because the awfulness of this universe (beyond the fact that the CCG format doesn't work for minis) has not at all been proven.

Yes, there is a large computer called the Games Workshop Adjustment Rationaliser which collects game stats and calculates how to change the next run of cards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AvatarForm wrote:Im not sure which is more confusing...

1. Lack of sufficient structure to the OP.

2. The fact the OP is happy to buy Pre-painted Plasticrap

3. The fact GW has been proven to release this crap at all.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:As for collectable minis, D&D, Star Wars and Hero Clix have all done well, several others have had fair to middling runs. If it can happen to Battletech don't for one second assume it can't happen to 40k.

D&D minis cannot fail. Literally, the rules can be crud, the armies can be uninspiring, the entire game can be frakked beyond 40k and fantasy combined, and the game will still sell on the basis that D&D players use the minis for their characters and encounters. And the CCG system STILL managed to damn near kill it because DMs can't buy what they need.

As for HeroClix and Star Wars, all I'll say is that I've seen plenty of Warmachine. I've seen a ton of Malifaux recently. Flames of war is fairly popular despite balance issues on the scale of 40k.

I've never seen anyone play either SW or HeroClix. Maybe my area is unusual. Maybe... it's not.

RisingPhoenix wrote: Flames of war is fairly popular despite balance issues on the scale of 40k.

LOL whut? Flames of War is way, way more balanced than 40k. They barely warrant a comparison in that regard. Or are we still in the alternate universe?



As to the original post, I think I'm going to go throw up now.

why bother with this?

RisingPhoenix wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:As for collectable minis, D&D, Star Wars and Hero Clix have all done well, several others have had fair to middling runs. If it can happen to Battletech don't for one second assume it can't happen to 40k.

D&D minis cannot fail. Literally, the rules can be crud, the armies can be uninspiring, the entire game can be frakked beyond 40k and fantasy combined, and the game will still sell on the basis that D&D players use the minis for their characters and encounters. And the CCG system STILL managed to damn near kill it because DMs can't buy what they need.

As for HeroClix and Star Wars, all I'll say is that I've seen plenty of Warmachine. I've seen a ton of Malifaux recently. Flames of war is fairly popular despite balance issues on the scale of 40k.

I've never seen anyone play either SW or HeroClix. Maybe my area is unusual. Maybe... it's not.

I've never seen anyone play it either, however, the fact that the concept has been around for years and they have done Horror, Superheroes, and Halo seems to show it is selling to someone. I suspect it doesn't appeal to wargamers like us. (The pre-painted haet, for example.)

I bought a bunch of the Halo figures cheap to use for SF games.

Kyoto, I can't believe you did it.
I can't believe you spent all that money on the collectible GW miniatures. I warned you what was coming a year ago, when I sold all mine off.

I got my "GW Insiders" newsletter in the mail today. As I predicted, they've finally done it. GW is phasing out their miniatures line entirely. Since buying chessex, they've been looking into a new dice game (Grimdice). They've finally seen the way gaming is going.

When Gygax (thank God for those lottery numbers!) came up with the cash to buy back the controlling stake in TSR, he saw that dice games were the new thing. Now that D&D is 100% die based (thanks to the huge success of their early Dragon Dice game), it's what everybody wants to play. GW is trying to cash in on the market. I just hope they're not too late.

I already preordered my Black Templar & my Orks booster cases, along with a half case of Terrain Dice boosters. when the new GT Tourney season kicks in, I'm golden!

Eric

Speaking of dice games, I hear they're making an RP spin-off of Cthulhu Dice called Call of Cthulhu. Can anyone confirm?

They're calling it a Roll Playing Game, whatever that means.

MagickalMemories wrote:Kyoto, I can't believe you did it.
I can't believe you spent all that money on the collectible GW miniatures. I warned you what was coming a year ago, when I sold all mine off.

I got my "GW Insiders" newsletter in the mail today. As I predicted, they've finally done it. GW is phasing out their miniatures line entirely. Since buying chessex, they've been looking into a new dice game (Grimdice). They've finally seen the way gaming is going.

When Gygax (thank God for those lottery numbers!) came up with the cash to buy back the controlling stake in TSR, he saw that dice games were the new thing. Now that D&D is 100% die based (thanks to the huge success of their early Dragon Dice game), it's what everybody wants to play. GW is trying to cash in on the market. I just hope they're not too late.

I already preordered my Black Templar & my Orks booster cases, along with a half case of Terrain Dice boosters. when the new GT Tourney season kicks in, I'm golden!

Eric

Huh?

Wha?

Geeze you had me going there for second, but the bit about terrain dice gave you away. Terrain dice? I can't believe that any game would include something as silly as terrain dice!

Kilkrazy wrote:

RisingPhoenix wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:As for collectable minis, D&D, Star Wars and Hero Clix have all done well, several others have had fair to middling runs. If it can happen to Battletech don't for one second assume it can't happen to 40k.

D&D minis cannot fail. Literally, the rules can be crud, the armies can be uninspiring, the entire game can be frakked beyond 40k and fantasy combined, and the game will still sell on the basis that D&D players use the minis for their characters and encounters. And the CCG system STILL managed to damn near kill it because DMs can't buy what they need.

As for HeroClix and Star Wars, all I'll say is that I've seen plenty of Warmachine. I've seen a ton of Malifaux recently. Flames of war is fairly popular despite balance issues on the scale of 40k.

I've never seen anyone play either SW or HeroClix. Maybe my area is unusual. Maybe... it's not.

I've never seen anyone play it either, however, the fact that the concept has been around for years and they have done Horror, Superheroes, and Halo seems to show it is selling to someone. I suspect it doesn't appeal to wargamers like us. (The pre-painted haet, for example.)

I bought a bunch of the Halo figures cheap to use for SF games.

I would disagree with the bolded bit; the key that I have observed at our venue is that for all of these games, there is a needed nucleus, sometimes just one dedicated gamer, that acts as an advocate for the game and encourages others to play. When that nucleus is present, games like Warhammer, HeroClix or Star Wars Minis get off the ground, when it is not, people gravitate to games like Magic the Gathering.

The people I see that show up as followers are the same gamers, it's the advocates that change.

As an aside, I play all 4 of the games mentioned above, and you would be surprised at the amount of crossover.

Kilkrazy wrote:

What... What is that?

And why does it have big red lips on the box?