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OK, I've used search function and read the assault section of the FAQ document and can't find an answer (could have missed it for sure). New player here, please forgive the assumptions I've made below if they're way off base.

A space marine has 1 attack, a boltgun and a bolt pistol. Does the bolt pistol add one additional attack or, because there isn't another CC weapon specifically designated in his equipment, does he only get his one attack?

Part of me says it's clear in the rules that the bolt pistol confers and additional attack, but a couple of other things confuse me and have led me to post the above question here.

Confusing thing one: in the SM codex for the Honor Guard section, it says they have a power weapon, a bolt gun and a bolt pistol. Then it says the Chapter Champion may replace his boltgun with a combat blade for free. I take the meaning from this combat blade option to be that it would somehow be a CC weapon and then the Chapter Champion could benefit from +1 attack by virtue of also owning a bolt pistol. I am probably wrong, but it's confusing to me to even have this option.

Confusing thing two: the SM codex does not list space marine tactical units as having a close combat weapon. The Chaos SM Codex does list their tactical units as having a close combat weapon. This would seem deliberate to me and suggest that CSM get one more attack in CC but regular SM do not; even more fundemental, it suggests to me that inclusion of a close combat weapon listed in equipment is somehow relevant to number of attacks in CC. This in spite of the fact that I realize a model does not need to have a CC weapon listed in its equipment in order to participate in CC and have an attacks statistic.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Normal Tactical Marines get only 1 attack in CC, because the Bolt Pistol is the only mentioned CC weapon.

Chaos Marines and Grey Hunters have Bolter, Boltpistol and CCW - the latter two both count as CC weapons, so they get 2 attacks base. Just for comparison.

memphisto wrote:OK, I've used search function and read the assault section of the FAQ document and can't find an answer (could have missed it for sure). New player here, please forgive the assumptions I've made below if they're way off base.

A space marine has 1 attack, a boltgun and a bolt pistol. Does the bolt pistol add one additional attack or, because there isn't another CC weapon specifically designated in his equipment, does he only get his one attack?

Part of me says it's clear in the rules that the bolt pistol confers and additional attack, but a couple of other things confuse me and have led me to post the above question here.

A model gets exactly the number of attacks on his profile, except for the bonuses listed on p37 of the main rulebook. A Space Marine only has a single close combat weapon (the bolt pistol), so does not gain an extra attack in close combat.

Confusing thing one: in the SM codex for the Honor Guard section, it says they have a power weapon, a bolt gun and a bolt pistol. Then it says the Chapter Champion may replace his boltgun with a combat blade for free. I take the meaning from this combat blade option to be that it would somehow be a CC weapon and then the Chapter Champion could benefit from +1 attack by virtue of also owning a bolt pistol. I am probably wrong, but it's confusing to me to even have this option.

That option has no benefit whatsoever, as far as I can see. He would already have +1 attack since he already has two close combat weapons; additional close combat weapons after the first two provide no benefit.

Confusing thing two: the SM codex does not list space marine tactical units as having a close combat weapon. The Chaos SM Codex does list their tactical units as having a close combat weapon. This would seem deliberate to me and suggest that CSM get one more attack in CC but regular SM do not; even more fundemental, it suggests to me that inclusion of a close combat weapon listed in equipment is somehow relevant to number of attacks in CC. This in spite of the fact that I realize a model does not need to have a CC weapon listed in its equipment in order to participate in CC and have an attacks statistic.

Thanks in advance for any help!

It was deliberate, to make CSM notably better in close combat than a Space Marine. This partially makes up for their lack of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

As a further comparison, Space Wolf Grey Hunters also get the three weapon combo, so also get +1 attack in combat.

A tactical marine equipped with a boltgun and bolt pistol gets 1 attack in cc (2 if charging) you need 2 close combat weapons (pistols included) to gain an additional attack. check out the section on cc weapons in the rule book as some special cc weapons you need 2 of to gain an extra attack. Yes chaos marines get an additional attack as the seemingly unlimited resources of the imperium of man cant see fit to give its best warriors a pointy stick.

Thank you all! Perhaps this shouldn't have been as confusing to me as it was...but it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spongemonkee wrote: Yes chaos marines get an additional attack as the seemingly unlimited resources of the imperium of man cant see fit to give its best warriors a pointy stick.

lol. totally - this is how I felt playing against CSM and getting ripped to pieces in CC....

memphisto wrote:Confusing thing one: in the SM codex for the Honor Guard section, it says they have a power weapon, a bolt gun and a bolt pistol. Then it says the Chapter Champion may replace his boltgun with a combat blade for free.It's confusing to me to even have this option.

Far as I can tell it's only so you can have all the stuff on the model for the Chapter Champion. Here:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440271a&prodId=prod1050236

Re SM Codex: I cannot believe even Chapt Champ still has I4. Chaos Marine Sorcerors have I5 and they spend all their time scheming!

Re: CC, yeah marines in CC are really disadvantaged having all forgotten their chainswords when they left the strike cruiser. What makes up for it in my opion is how good the TH/SS termis are. They are your front line, hide your tacticals in the back.

We touched upon the whole CCW thing in the guard thread, so I wont drag it here.

On the subject of marines, yeah they're really forgetful with their weapons. You'd think they'd be equipped for CC and ranged combat, but all they can do is pistolwhip some poor shmuck.

For the Chapter Champion, note that he can take a Relic Blade (which forbids him from using two CCWs in close combat due to being a 2 handed weapon). In this case you can exchange the boltgun for a Combat blade, so your champion has the option of either using S6 Power weapon hits, or gain an additional attack. However he can only choose to use one of those options per turn, not combine all of their effects. While any of the Honor Guards can take a Relic Blade, only the Chapter Champion has the option of switching between a Relic Blade and two CCWs during a game. However I kinda doubt an additional attack is better than having a S6 Power weapon.

Mecha that is untrue(the choice of S6 PW or 2 CCW attacks); When you have a Special CCW you only use that Special CCW.

Additionally when you have 2 different Special Close combat weapons(such as purchasing a Relic Blade for the Chapter Champion, who already has a Power Sword) you can never claim the 2 CCW bonus attack(Clearly stated on page 42 of the BRB)

Honestly taking the Relic Blade on any of them is a bad idea since you Lose 1 Power weapon attack per model so upgraded, and trade it for the S6(which could be beneficial depending on what you are facing).

P.S. All honor Guard have power weapon, bolt pistol, and Bolter; so all of them get the bonus attack for 2 CCWs. The Chapter Champion adding a Combat Blade(as a 3rd CCW) is just for Fluff and to fulfill WYSIWYG(which certainly applies here as the Champ is an Upgrade Character).

MechaEmperor7000. you're thinking of 3rd or 4th edition rules. In 5th edition if you have a special close combat weapon, you can't choose to make a normal attack, though if you have multiple weapons you can pick which one to use. If you have a weapon like a lightning claw, power fist, or relic blade, you can't get get extra attack for a second weapon, regardless of how many weapons you have.

Kel, I don't know why you're saying the relic blade is a bad choice for the honor guard squad, the basic point of the relic blade is to trade off 1 attack for a higher ST. Unless you're fighting T2 opponents, the relic blade does more wounds on average than the power weapon, and it's able to hurt things like drednoughts and MCs that a regular power weapon is completely or mostly ineffective against. Being able to get relic blades on guys is one of the main perks of the honor guard squad, otherwise you can only get them on a captain/commander and variant marine chapters can't take them at all.

For me it is the near Cost of another marine for 1 less power weapon attack just to gain +2 Str; I usually do not take honor guard to begin with, but if i did i would send them after Mooks and ICs, not Big-bads.

This also leads me to the other (mostly) useless upgrade for the Champ: Digital lasers. Against Mooks you shouldn't really need it, Vs ICs he already has a better benefit of always re-rolling the failed wounds.

but this is getting more into tactics than rules.

p.s. bearers: power Fists, lightning Claws, and thunder Hammers can benefit from a Bonus attack; If you buy them a second of the exact same weapon

I think you guys misinterpreted what I said. What I meant was that he can either use just the Relic Blade, or use the Combat Blade and Bolt Pistol, but not the two options together. he counts as having three weapons and can use any of them in valid combinations. He's not shutting off the relic blade to use it as a CCW, he's using an entirely different set of weapons he had.

I think you misinterpret what the rulebook says on page 42.

He must always use the Relic blade, or the Power weapon(he does not lose the power weapon you know); and with Either Choice He never gets the Bonus attack because he is armed with 2 different Special CCWs.

Now in the case of buying the Relic blade and switching the bolter for a Combat Blade the Champion will have 4 CCWs: Relic Blade, power Weapon, Combat Blade, and bolt pistol.

Bolt pistol and Combat Blade are Both considered normal, 1 handed CCWs Which would grant a bonus attack in their own right(unupgraded Sgts who take the option, Assault Marines, and Scouts who cake the option have these weapons).
A relic Blade is a 2 handed Special Close Combat weapon; so when you have this and any other 1 handed ccw weapon(Normal or Special) you will never gain the bonus attack in close combat. it does not matter how many 1-handed Normal Close combat Weapons you have; if you have 1 2-handed Special Close combat weapon you never receive the bonus and always use the Special weapon by default(again Page 42, brb)

Kel's right: if you have two different special close combat weapons, you never gain the +1 attack for two single-handed weapons.

Kinda screws over Marneus Calgar, but them's the shakes.

Mecha, you're wrong about how close combat weapons work in 5th edition, again you're using rules from old editions or house rules. First, if you have a relic blade, lightning claw, or powerfist, you don't get the bonus for a second CCW unless you have two of that special weapon. There is no exception to the rule about only getting a bonus attack from two of the same weapon. Second, if you have multiple special close combat weapons you can choose between them, but there is no option to use a normal close combat weapon instead of a special weapon, if you have any weapons with special rules, you can't make a regular close combat weapon attack. If you think that you can, cite the rule that allows you to - you'll find that there simply isn't one in 5th.

Kel, you're right on getting a bonus attack from two of the same weapon. For the 'bad idea' part, I'm not a fan of honor guard in general, it's just usually 'bad idea to take it' in YMDC means that there is something wrong with the option, not just that you don't like it. Taking a relic blade is fully functional and provides an actual benefit for the points, it's not like taking storm bolters for Sternguard where you're destroying a primary unit ability for almost no gain or taking hellfire rounds for a character who doesn't have a bolter to fire them in.

Heh, again with this old can of worms.

A modle equipped with multiple weapons is not the same as a model fighting with with multiple weapons. The rules on pg 42 detail how and why a model doesnt get a bonus if they are fighting with two single handed weapons that both give bonuses. These rules do NOT discuss a model that is armed with more than two weapons, so the rules thereby imply that there can be a choice as to which two weapons a model is actually fighting with during a round of combat.

Now some people do believe that if a model is equipped with more than two weapons the rules on pg 42 still apply. So that is why this issue still raises a mighty debate here on dakka.



Sliggoth

Lol never noticed that an SM Honor guard could actually have 4 close combat weapons (Relic Blade, Power Weapon, Combat Blade, Pistol). This suffers from the age old debate of equipped vs. weilding.

At his point the game breaks because it doesn't tell you what to do if you have have more then 2 CCWs as the paragraph these guys are pointing out is "Two different special weapons" not "Two or more different special weapons". it could be interpreted that that paragraph is talking about using the Relic Blade and Power weapon in conjunction thus negating your +1 attack or merely having more then one special weapon negates your +1 attack. It could also be interpreted that you choose which two weapons your character is wielding that round and if it is two different specials or relic blade + CCW you lose your +1 attack, but power weapon + pistol would give you your +1 attack.

There is no winner here

I think what he is saying is that a model with a pistol, ccw and relic blade has some options. Say he's charging. He can choose to use the pistol and CCW, basically discarding the relic blade, so that he gains +1 attack at his normal strength. Or, he can opt to use the relic blade, keeping the normal number of attacks at +2 strength.

M.

Infantryman wrote:I think what he is saying is that a model with a pistol, ccw and relic blade has some options. Say he's charging. He can choose to use the pistol and CCW, basically discarding the relic blade, so that he gains +1 attack at his normal strength.

I know what he's saying, the problem is it's not legal in this edition of the game - what you described is not an option allowed under the 5th edition rules. If you have one special close combat weapon, you have to use it. If you have two, you can pick which one, but still can't choose not to use a special one. The rules are very clear on this, there is no option of 'don't use a special close combat weapon and instead just use a normal one'. Further, if you have a weapon like a relic blade, then you cannot get an extra attack from a second weapon unless the second weapon is also a relic blade. The rules don't have any exception for whether you're using the relic blade's bonuses or not, the 'cannot get an extra attack' rule applies whenever you are equipped with a relic blade.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

Infantryman wrote:I think what he is saying is that a model with a pistol, ccw and relic blade has some options. Say he's charging. He can choose to use the pistol and CCW, basically discarding the relic blade, so that he gains +1 attack at his normal strength.

I know what he's saying, the problem is it's not legal in this edition of the game - what you described is not an option allowed under the 5th edition rules. If you have one special close combat weapon, you have to use it. If you have two, you can pick which one, but still can't choose not to use a special one. The rules are very clear on this, there is no option of 'don't use a special close combat weapon and instead just use a normal one'. Further, if you have a weapon like a relic blade, then you cannot get an extra attack from a second weapon unless the second weapon is also a relic blade. The rules don't have any exception for whether you're using the relic blade's bonuses or not, the 'cannot get an extra attack' rule applies whenever you are equipped with a relic blade.

As per my previous post this may or may not be correct, it depends on how you look at the situation and this topic has been played out in many many other threads. I will however point out that the relic blade states "... a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack..." thus the debate about wielding vs equipped goes back into play.

To break things out in simple terms, the section "Fighting with Two Single-Handed Weapons" can be broke down into three interpretations all of which could easily be right:

- Game breaks as the makers didn't forsee more then 2 CCW

or

- Being "equipped" with 2 or more special weapons negates any of them from having +1 attack

or

- You may choose which two weapons you "wield" for that round of CC, work out if you get a +1 or not based on the weapon selection.


IMHO, the third one makes the most sense fluff wise since you could easily be carrying a two handed power sword, power sword, and pistol but have the twohander sheathed across your back while you use the powersword and pistol.

RAW the first bullet happens and no GW FAQ has said otherwise.

BlueDagger wrote:I will however point out that the relic blade states "... a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack..." thus the debate about wielding vs equipped goes back into play.

They use the word 'equip' in the main rules abotu similar weapons, there are no rules in 5th edition for wielding, so it's obvious that the use if 'wielding' in the SM codex is simply a matter of word choice, not a rules reference. As I've pointed out, you don't have an option not to use the relic blade in 5th edition - if you have a special CC weapon, you have to use it. You're trying to use old 3rd (maybe 4th) edition rules for melee weapons, where there were rules for wielding, in 5th edition with a 5th edition codex, where there aren't any such rules.

[b]- Game breaks as the makers didn't forsee more then 2 CCW

Saying 'the game breaks' doesn't magically mean the game breaks. The game only breaks if the rules can't handle a situation, but the rules apply fine here, you just don't like the result. In the 'block his table edge' situation, the rules say that you 'must' come in, but there is no legal way to come in, so the game breaks. There is no 'must but can't' situation with extra CCWs, you either get a bonus or don't under certain conditions.

Bluedagger -this has nothing to do with the rules talking about extra attacks, but a page back stating that you must use special weapons i fyou have them.

YOu CANNOT choose NOT to use a special weapon in favour of a normal weapon. You have NO choice in the matter.

This thread makes my brain hurt D:

Could you please cite the page and location of where you are forced to use all special weapons you have?

Page 42. . . ?

Relic Blades can never get +1 attack, even if you ahve a second one, as it's a two-handed weapon. Power Weapons with a single CCW can still give you +1 attack. Also, I am well aware of the 4th edition rule where you can opt to "turn off" a Special CCW, therefore making it count as a normal CCW instead of whatever it was suppose to be (which made it kinda jarring when the Power Fist suddenly struck at normal initiative while the servos powering it went dead). However I was refering to using a completely different set of weapons. There is nothing that says you MUST use a Special CCW if you have other options, but it's a pretty stupid thing to do so I guess the Writers let common sense take over. The option in the examples never came up at all.

On another subject, I didnt know he would keep the Power Weapon. Assuming that the Chapter Champion bought the Relic Blade, kept his Power Weapon, and still had a CCW (either the combat blade or the Bolt Pistol), he could either choose between using the Power Weapon and CCW (and thus ignoring armor while gaining +1 attack) or solely use the Relic Blade (Having S6 and Ignoring armor). That would provide him with a distinct advantage against tougher enemies, as he can either choose to inflict more wounds against a target or crack open a tough nut with his relic blade. However the fact that he gets to keep his Power weapon kinda moots my point, since the onyl way the combination would work is if he took the Thunder Hammer, Bolt Pistol and Combat Blade.

Page 42 states that if a special weapon and a non-special weapon are both equiped the special weapon is used.

If two special weapons are equiped, one must be chosen.

One may never attack with a "normal" ccw if one has a special ccw.
(Barring any actual weapon that states otherwise--as should be obvious. Not that I can think of any)

Editing to add:
Page 42 of the main rulebook.

I dont get the problem here haha. It states in the rulebook that you MUST use the special weapon the model is equiped with. So why are people still trying to say other wise?

Now if a model takes 2 special weapons then he may pick.

The rules assume that you only ever had two CCWs.

It also mentioned that you dont get an extra attack for having an extra CCW if you're wielding a Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, or Lightning Claw unless the extra CCW is a duplicate.

It never said you could not use the CCW by itself. The writers never even touched upon what would happen if you had more than 3 weapons, other than you could only use a maximum of 2 weapons (and both of which had to be one-handed) in a given turn.

EDIT: They actually dont touch upon the 3+ weapon loadout at all. They just said that 2 handed weapons dont get the +1 for having another CCW.

Check Tri's avatar.