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< taken by the void dragon >

It's really not that much more complicated than the current one.

In fact I'd prefer 2 separate vehicle tables, one for transports and one for other vehicles.

Transports:
1. Can't move
2. Can't move or shoot
3. Roll another d6, 1-2: Weapon Destroyed, 3-4: Transported troops take d3 Str3 Ap -- hits, 5-6: Your choice
4. Roll another d6, 1-2: Immobilized, 3-4: Transported troops take d3 Str3 Ap -- hits, 5-6: Your choice
5. Vehicle Destroyed
6. Vehicle Explodes d6", Str3 Ap-- hit to all passengers

Tanks:
1. Can't move
2. Can't move or shoot
3. Roll another d6, on a1-2: Weapon Destroyed, 3-4: Immobilized, 5-6: Your choice
4. Roll another d6, on a 1: Weapon Destroyed, 2: Immobilized, 3-6: Your choice
5. Vehicle Destroyed
6. Vehicle Explodes d6" Str4 Ap --

I will take this one step further and say that Id love to see tables for EVERY type of vehicle.

More complex? Yup.

GW needs to stop dumbing down the game for people and start putting depth back into the game.

Not 100% sure it's "dumbing down" so much as just trying to make it simple (Impossible when squads roll so many dice), but I otherwise agree with you there jp400. Different vehicle types should react to damage in different ways. I was ???'d to see that the Glancing table managed to go MIA sometime between 3rd and now.

M.

Yeah,

I say dumbing down cause when I started playing the game, on an eldar viper for example.... you could kill the driver and roll to see if the gunner could take over his spot before he crashed ect ect.

Fun and full of flavor with a touch of depth? Oh hell yeah!

Now it's roll to hit, glance/pen, roll on that chart, result.

I find this new style of play rather stale. Which might be why I have spent a total of 0$ on GW since 5th came out.

I only use rules as such when I'm playing me and my friend's version of Necromunda where it's supposed to be more of a story playing out.

Ever seen the Book of the Arbitrator? We use that as a base for the game and change it up a ton to suit ourselves.

Che-Vito wrote:I think it is probably the worst scenario to receive an "Immobilized" result against a gun platform, or a "Weapon Destroyed" against a transport.

I understand it's more complicated, but I'd like to see this instead.

Damage Table:
1 - can't move
2 - can't move or shoot
3 - (roll a d6, on a 4+ choose either to immobilize the vehicle or destroy a weapon)
4 - (same as 3)
5 - wrecked
6 - plodes!

Still doesn't sound very friendly. How about this?

1 - Hugs!
2 - Smiles!
3 - Flowers!
4 - Ice-cream!
5 - Free booze!
6 - PUPPIES!!!

Funny stuff but let's stay on topic here. Thanks!

I'd prefer something like this, to emphasize the +/-1 mods from AP- and AP:1 weapons.

0 or less - May fire one less weapon than normal
1 - Can't shoot
2 - Can't move or shoot
3 - Weapon System Damage: each player rolls d6. High score picks which weapon destroyed (tie to attacker)
4 - Drive System Damage: each player rolls d6. If defender wins, vehicle reduced to half speed. If attacker wins, vehicle immobilized (tie to attacker). Additional results on half-speed vehicles are automatically immobilized.
5 - Vehicle Wrecked. Vehicle damaged beyond repair, passengers must disembark, but no further effects.
6 - Vehicle Destroyed. Severe damage. Passengers must disembark and take pinning test.
7 - Vehicle Explodes. Catastrophic damage. Vehicle explodes in d6 radius. Passengers take each take S4 hit (S3 if open-topped) and must pass pinning test. Test is at -1 Leadership if unit takes any casualties from explosion. All models in blast radius take S3 hit.

I would agree that GW has taken too much depth out of the game and the Vehicle damage table is a prime example. There seems to be fluff comming back into it with more current armies in spots but there's no major rules changes that affect the game. I play Orks and if my trukk takes a hit and doesn't suffer damage maybe one of my boyz clinging to the side caught the round in his head? It would be nice to see fluff take over in a way and have some proper fun, but the fact that it's simple so younger people, who are apparently to stupid to grasp abit of fluff, can also line GW's pockets.

jp400 wrote:Yeah,

I say dumbing down cause when I started playing the game, on an eldar viper for example.... you could kill the driver and roll to see if the gunner could take over his spot before he crashed ect ect.

Fun and full of flavor with a touch of depth? Oh hell yeah!

Now it's roll to hit, glance/pen, roll on that chart, result.

I find this new style of play rather stale. Which might be why I have spent a total of 0$ on GW since 5th came out.

Yeah, my friends and I use something called "reflex rolls," where you roll against the unit in question's LD to see if their reflexes are good enough to do this. It can add a nice spin to the game. A good example is, when a 'nid player uses a biovore to fire a spore mine, the unit being targeted can make a reflex roll to try and shoot the spore mine out of the air.

< taken by the void dragon >

The game is being simplified so that games don't take as long. Does it take away some of the depth and fluff of the game? Yes. Does it mean we can play a 2500pt game in less than 8 hours? Also yes.

Back to OP: I don't quite get Che-Vito's damage table. So, on a 3 or 4, you roll a d6 and on a 4+ get to either immobilize or destroy a weapon? I take it to mean the attacking player chooses? And, in the case of a 3-, does nothing happen?

I'm confused why we want transports to be better. Mech is all anyone ever takes.

That being said, hopefully next edition it'll be like

1: Shaken(Squad inside takes a s4 hit)
2: Stunned(Squad inside takes a s4 hit)
3:Weapon Destroyed(Squad inside takes d3 s5 hits)
4:Immobilized(Squad inside takes d3 s5 hits)
5:Wrecked(Every member takes a wound, armor saves)
6:Explode(Every member takes a wound, invul saves)
7:Atomized(Remove squad and tank from play)

LordWaffles wrote:I'm confused why we why transports to be better. Mech is all anyone ever takes.

That being said, hopefully next edition it'll be like

1: Shaken(Squad inside takes a s4 hit)
2: Stunned(Squad inside takes a s4 hit)
3:Weapon Destroyed(Squad inside takes d3 s5 hits)
4:Immobilized(Squad inside takes d3 s5 hits)
5:Wrecked(Every member takes a wound, armor saves)
6:Explode(Every member takes a wound, invul saves)
7:Atomized(Remove squad and tank from play)

I'd call that overkill.

And, you're missing the result of an 8. By continuing your theme, I'd make it:
8: Existence Failure (Remove squad and tank, and replace any models these units had previously killed)

Grakmar wrote:
I'd call that overkill.

And, you're missing the result of an 8. By continuing your theme, I'd make it:
8: Dicks everywhere D:

It might need to be toned down but I definitely think that would halt mech lists if you start losing the guys on the inside to concussions.

LordWaffles wrote:

Grakmar wrote:
I'd call that overkill.

And, you're missing the result of an 8. By continuing your theme, I'd make it:
8: Dicks everywhere D:

It might need to be toned down but I definitely think that would halt mech lists if you start losing the guys on the inside to concussions.

Oh, it definitely would. But, with what you wrote, it'd end up like 4th edition, where no one ran mech. Mech should be a viable option, but not required. 4th was too anti-mech, 5th is too pro-mech. We need a good balance.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Prediction for next edition is even more mech, those transports are some of the least dollar/point effective things ever. Hell you pay a dollar per point with rhinos.

I think that the damage table is too friendly to all vehicles. my proposal:

1)Shaken: same
2)Stunned: same
3)Damaged: Choice of weapon destroyed or immobilized. (no one aims for the storm bolter on a rhino, or for the tracks on a basilisk)
4)Destroyed Wrecked: same
5)Destroyed explodes: same
6)Destroyed Very Explodes!: same as explodes but passengers take a S6 AP2 hit, models in the blast radius take a S6 AP- hit, and roll 2D6 for the blast radius and pick the highest.


This allows glances to destroy vehicles and makes transports dangerous to ride in. Every army should have to choose if you want to ride in tanks or not instead of just deciding how many tanks to take in your army. If you chose to take a tank, you gain mobility and some protection, but you have a small chance of having a horrible accident.

The top armies are the ones with the best tanks (guard) or the best people to put in tanks (Wolves) while the Tyranids are gimped because they have no tanks at all.

jp400 wrote:Yeah,

I say dumbing down cause when I started playing the game, on an eldar viper for example.... you could kill the driver and roll to see if the gunner could take over his spot before he crashed ect ect.

Fun and full of flavor with a touch of depth? Oh hell yeah!

Rolling a bunch more dice to see if this event happens or that event happens, without any additional decision making on the part of the players can be fun, but it isn’t more deep. Depth requires the balancing of tactical priorities.

Now you can argue 40K lacks tactical depth, and I’d agree, but the game is about as deep as it’s ever been, and no amount of dice rolling on a damage chart is going to change that.

Now it's roll to hit, glance/pen, roll on that chart, result.

I find this new style of play rather stale. Which might be why I have spent a total of 0$ on GW since 5th came out.

Fair enough, if you prefer more simulationist, make believe style play then I can see you’d feel 40K is moving away from you. But that doesn’t make the current design ‘dumbed down’.

Grakmar wrote:Oh, it definitely would. But, with what you wrote, it'd end up like 4th edition, where no one ran mech. Mech should be a viable option, but not required. 4th was too anti-mech, 5th is too pro-mech. We need a good balance.

Balance is almost impossible with 40K’s design. Thing is, every unit is measured in it’s ability to survive, and in it’s ability to kill. There’s been an effort to differentiate unit troops by making them the only unit able to hold objectives, but it’s a half measure at best.

Some unit types will always have a slight advantage over the others, that’s unavoidable. And because every unit basically performs the same task, kill the enemy, there is no need to balance your infantry against armour, artillery and aircraft. So the optimum build will always be to minimise your exposure to all but one type of enemy fire – and that means focussing on taking one unit type only.

Until the game actually introduces genuinely unique unit types, the best lists will always be spam lists.

Hi all.
There is a REALY simple alternative to the current damage tables, that can cover a wide range of diverse vehicle types.

Each vehicle is given a nuber of structure points (think of them as wounds for vehicles.)
These structure points are divided into molbilty and armament.

Eg A land raider has 3 structure points in mobilty.
And 3 structure points in armament.

For each structure point the land raider looses in mobility it reduces its movment by 2".

A land raider with ...
3 SP moves 6"
2 sp movesd 4"
1 sp moves 2 "
0 sp imobilised.

Each armament structure point represents one weapon system on the land raider.(TLLC, TLHB,TLLC.)
So as the land raider looses armament sp they loose a weapon.

Roll the penetration dice ands add it to the str of the weapon as now.
The deduce the AV value of the vehicle.
This gives the ' penetration value' of the weapon hit.

EG melta gun str 8 pen dice 3 and 4 = 15.
15 -14 = 1.
Penetration value of 1

A result of less than 0 has no effect.
A result of 0 causes a crew shaken result.
Attacker roll a D6 on the roll of 5+ , the result is upgraded to crew stunned.

A value of 1 or more , vehicle looses this many structure points.
Attacker rolls a D6 , on a 5+ he decides which structure points are removed from the vehicle.Otherwise the vehicle owner allocates damage.

When a vehicle looses all its structure points it is destroyed.
If a vehicle looses more structure points than it has remaining it explodex on the roll of a 5+.

This way transports (all mobility and no armament,)and weapons platforms(No mobility and all armament) and ALL vehciles in between can be covered with ONE simple resolution method.

TTFN

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
There is a REALY simple alternative to the current damage tables, that can cover a wide range of diverse vehicle types.

Each vehicle is given a nuber of structure points (think of them as wounds for vehicles.)
These structure points are divided into molbilty and armament.

Eg A land raider has 3 structure points in mobilty.
And 3 structure points in armament.

For each structure point the land raider looses in mobility it reduces its movment by 2".

A land raider with ...
3 SP moves 6"
2 sp movesd 4"
1 sp moves 2 "
0 sp imobilised.

Each armament structure point represents one weapon system on the land raider.(TLLC, TLHB,TLLC.)
So as the land raider looses armament sp they loose a weapon.

Roll the penetration dice ands add it to the str of the weapon as now.
The deduce the AV value of the vehicle.
This gives the ' penetration value' of the weapon hit.

EG melta gun str 8 pen dice 3 and 4 = 15.
15 -14 = 1.
Penetration value of 1

A result of less than 0 has no effect.
A result of 0 causes a crew shaken result.
Attacker roll a D6 on the roll of 5+ , the result is upgraded to crew stunned.

A value of 1 or more , vehicle looses this many structure points.
Attacker rolls a D6 , on a 5+ he decides which structure points are removed from the vehicle.Otherwise the vehicle owner allocates damage.

When a vehicle looses all its structure points it is destroyed.
If a vehicle looses more structure points than it has remaining it explodex on the roll of a 5+.

This way transports (all mobility and no armament,)and weapons platforms(No mobility and all armament) and ALL vehciles in between can be covered with ONE simple resolution method.

TTFN

Is this trolling, or do you actually think that is a "Really simple alternative?

Magister187 wrote:

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
(blah blah blah)

Is this trolling, or do you actually think that is a "Really simple alternative?

its certainly not simpler, but it does make a lot of sense to me...

You all try playing a game with 15+ vehicles and one of these proposed new rulesets and see how long it takes you. The current rules may not be accurate and they may not be fluff, but they are very easy to remember and very fast to work out. I dont want to spend 10 minutes trying to work out what happens every time someone shoots at a vehicle.

Magister187 wrote:

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
There is a REALY simple alternative to the current damage tables, that can cover a wide range of diverse vehicle types.

Each vehicle is given a nuber of structure points (think of them as wounds for vehicles.)
These structure points are divided into molbilty and armament.

Eg A land raider has 3 structure points in mobilty.
And 3 structure points in armament.

For each structure point the land raider looses in mobility it reduces its movment by 2".

A land raider with ...
3 SP moves 6"
2 sp movesd 4"
1 sp moves 2 "
0 sp imobilised.

Each armament structure point represents one weapon system on the land raider.(TLLC, TLHB,TLLC.)
So as the land raider looses armament sp they loose a weapon.

Roll the penetration dice ands add it to the str of the weapon as now.
The deduce the AV value of the vehicle.
This gives the ' penetration value' of the weapon hit.

EG melta gun str 8 pen dice 3 and 4 = 15.
15 -14 = 1.
Penetration value of 1

A result of less than 0 has no effect.
A result of 0 causes a crew shaken result.
Attacker roll a D6 on the roll of 5+ , the result is upgraded to crew stunned.

A value of 1 or more , vehicle looses this many structure points.
Attacker rolls a D6 , on a 5+ he decides which structure points are removed from the vehicle.Otherwise the vehicle owner allocates damage.

When a vehicle looses all its structure points it is destroyed.
If a vehicle looses more structure points than it has remaining it explodex on the roll of a 5+.

This way transports (all mobility and no armament,)and weapons platforms(No mobility and all armament) and ALL vehciles in between can be covered with ONE simple resolution method.

TTFN

Is this trolling, or do you actually think that is a "Really simple alternative?

Are you mentally ill?

Hmmm, interesting.

How about 2D6;

0-3 - Shaken; cannot fire.
4 - Stunned; cannot move or shoot
5 - Weapon destroyed; attacker chooses
6 - Crew compartment hit. Any embarked units suffer D6 S4 hits. If the vehicle has no passengers, treat this as a weapon destroyed result. (A las-blast ricochets dangerously inside or superheated metal causes dangerous burn injuries)
7 - Immobilised.
8 - Careens. Roll for scatter (2d6) and move the vehicle directly in that direction. Any units caught in its path must take a tank shock test. Vehicle is thereafter immobilised. (If the unit was stationary the shot has engaged the drive system, or damaged the flight stabilisation system, causing it to go out of control dangerously.)
9-10 - Destroyed, any units must disembark and take a pinning test
11 - Explodes, D6 S4 blast, armour saves allowed. Any units must take a pinning test.
12 - Careens and explodes. Roll scatter and 2d6, any units in it's path must take a tank shock test. On arriving at it's final destination it explodes. D6 S4 blast, any embarked units must take a pinning test.

Modifers -4 for glancing, +3 for AP1-2, +2 for open topped. 0 is always the lowest score regardless of modifiers. (Optional? -1 if the vehicle was stationary/tank, +1 if the vehicle moved a full speed?)

Not sure if it's more friendly, but certainly more interesting!

So, you shooting at my vehicles can actually get them closer to you?

I like everything else though, especially -1 for being a tank, but there should be no bonus if the tank moved full speed imho.

Hi folks.
I proposed ONE resolution method without ANY modifiers.Which delivered proportional results that covered all vehicle type better than the current system.

Which is simpler than multiple tables or multiple modifiers, isnt it?.

Roll for str + pen as now.
Compare to AV as now.
The difference determines the amount of damage , rather than rolling on a seperate table .
And allowing players to allocate damage adds more tactical chioce.

The damage capacity of the vehicle is represented in a similar way to non vehicle units.(Wounds =structure points.)But proportionaly atributed to the vehicles mobility and weapon systems.

If you make the vehicle AV the modifier to the attack , then artificial modifiers are not realy necissary.
Having a 1 in 6 chance of any result hapening independant of the damage inflicted is more abstract, and NEEDS modifers to get proportionality back.

Sorry my terms of referance are different to yours.
But compared to some of the deatailed simulations I play..... (S+ xD6)-(AV) = damage taken,.... is very simple !

TTFN

It's still rather confusing.

I take it a vehicle has weapon structure points equal to the number of weapons it has. But, how do you determine Movement structure points? Is it equal to maximum movement distance/2 or does every vehicle have 3?