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This is just to put things in perspective, but why "official" tournaments put so much enfasis on this when GW sets do not support it?.

I mean, take wolves.

There are no official wolves models.
No thunderwolves.
No terminator combiweapons.
No combiweapons for WG on power armour.
No flamers.
No meltas.
Speeders that dont have half their weapon combinations.
Dreads missing a multitude of weapon options.

Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

Just to spark out debate.

There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

Mahtamori wrote:There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

Every codex is equally strict on WYSIWYG (it is not "WYSIWYG unles you are..."). Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

don_mondo wrote:But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

That is if you are making a conversion, many of what i listed above are standard run of the mill troops that you simply cant assemble. May be it is just me, but when i buy a Wolf pack box or a Tactical marines box or a dread, i expect to be able to assemble that same unit, with the options listen in the codex. I come from a far away land where when they sell you a car, it actually does come with 4 wheels.

xxvaderxx wrote:Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

The answer to that really depends on what you think WYSIWYG is actually supposed to do.


Some players feel that WYSIWYG is nothing more than an excuse to make you buy more kits to get the options you need. In which case, GW not supporting certain options in certain kits forces you to buy other kits to get the parts you need for the first kit... which fits that theory nicely. Likewise, for units that don't exist you have to scratch-build or convert from other sets, which also often requires you to buy more than just a single set.

I don't personally subscribe to that theory, but it does fit


For those who feel that WYSIWYG is intended as nothing more than a convenience (ie: it's a tool by which the game is made easier to play, because you just have to look at the model to see what it is, and what it is equipped with) then whether or not the model range supports it is largely irrelevant. If a particular option is not available in a kit, you either don't use it, or convert it. Similarly, if a particular unit doesn't have a model, you don't use it until that model is released (ala Space Marine players wanting Land Raiders for the second half of 2nd edition and the start of 3rd edition) or you convert it from something else.

GW is somewhat hampered by budget restrictions. As much as the studio would love to give us new shiny toys for every option whenever they release a codex, they're generally only allowed to release a specific number of new kits. So they work in shiny new options to the rules for those who want them, and just release the corresponding models when the budget allows.

10 hot dogs for 8 hot dog buns. means you have to buy 5 packs of buns and 4 packs of hot dogs for it to even out.

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember. At least they used to sell sprues of stuff like 'ork close combat weapons' or 'space marine special weapons' or whatever but that is a thing of the past. I had to build my chimera with a leman russ heavy flamer because the chim didn't have one. Good thing I had that Leman Russ sprue laying around. This has been pissing people off for over a decade, but I think the intention is pretty obvious. Now I have to go and eat 40 hot dogs just to get my moneys worth.

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

A-P wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

Same for witches. It is an interesting dilemma, as a TO, i could not make my event WYSIWYG, not when so many options are missing. May be leave say 20% of the model count not as WYSIWYG. So if you had say 40 marines, 8 of them could brake WYSIWYG or something.

vader, no, that's not true. Read the Eldar codex on page 59. No other codex says "cannot field models not equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on their model"

A-P wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

Yeah and pigs fly on monday mornings. I really would like to see the GW infantry box that has enough hand grenades for the whole squad.

Eldar Guardians have. They may not use grenades, though.

Like any gw rule, WYSIWYG has obvious limitations based on the models we have available.

For example, is it ok to use a power sword and fantasy shield to represent a thunderhammer and storm shield on a black reach termie? For codex marines, powersword and fantasy shield is not a legal combo, thus perhaps it falls under 'conversion' but really it just the owner being lazy and not wanting to buy the model. Still, as long as the lazy 'conversion' is consistant at defining what models are what, no rule besides 'rule of cool' is really being broken.

IMHO, the most important aspect of WYSIWYG is to differentiate models to prevent cheating in games. IE, if you pull a bolter marine when you were supposed to pull a melta marine, the opponent can visually see that the model type you pulled is the incorrect model.

Also, if a quick look at an enemy unit shows no melta weapons, so you put a vehicle right next to it, even if melta is written down in the list the models are not differentiated on the field leading to poor vehicle placement--this is not the vehicle players fault but the melta owning player for not making his unit choices clear enough to base a strat on.

Now for unit types that dont exist, lazy conversions are fine as long as they are consistant. Thunderwolves, for example. If you put a marine standing on the back of a fantasy wolf, technically that can be a really ugly thunderwolf--its obviously not a regular marine or a marine on a bike, so for visual identification it passes. A fantasy wolf with no rider, however, can be confused with fenrisan wolves instead of counts as thunderwolves, and even if fenrisian wolves are not in the list the lazy thunderwolf fails as it must constantly be clarified.

DevianID wrote:Like any gw rule, WYSIWYG has obvious limitations based on the models we have available.

For example, is it ok to use a power sword and fantasy shield to represent a thunderhammer and storm shield on a black reach termie? For codex marines, powersword and fantasy shield is not a legal combo, thus perhaps it falls under 'conversion' but really it just the owner being lazy and not wanting to buy the model. Still, as long as the lazy 'conversion' is consistant at defining what models are what, no rule besides 'rule of cool' is really being broken.

IMHO, the most important aspect of WYSIWYG is to differentiate models to prevent cheating in games. IE, if you pull a bolter marine when you were supposed to pull a melta marine, the opponent can visually see that the model type you pulled is the incorrect model.

Also, if a quick look at an enemy unit shows no melta weapons, so you put a vehicle right next to it, even if melta is written down in the list the models are not differentiated on the field leading to poor vehicle placement--this is not the vehicle players fault but the melta owning player for not making his unit choices clear enough to base a strat on.

Now for unit types that dont exist, lazy conversions are fine as long as they are consistant. Thunderwolves, for example. If you put a marine standing on the back of a fantasy wolf, technically that can be a really ugly thunderwolf--its obviously not a regular marine or a marine on a bike, so for visual identification it passes. A fantasy wolf with no rider, however, can be confused with fenrisan wolves instead of counts as thunderwolves, and even if fenrisian wolves are not in the list the lazy thunderwolf fails as it must constantly be clarified.

That is all nice and cool, except for the fact that again, not all options are supported. How do you make double anything land speeder from the land speed box?. Are you supposed to buy a commander box for every wolf guard that you want it to have combi melta and power fist?. It is like buying a car that only comes with 3 wheels.

Again, i would stand by it, if GW did, 1 box 1 unit (or multiple for lager sized units).

Mahtamori wrote:Eldar Guardians have. They may not use grenades, though.

Damn space hippies . My loyal IG veterans had to scrounge theirs from the cold hands of fallen enemies ( borrow, swap or buy from other players ), since Adeptus Munitorium ( GW ) did not supply enough.

xxvaderxx wrote:Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

Just to spark out debate.

Yes, thats why I completely hate the tyranid codex.

What is a Tervigon supposed to be, how tall, and on what base matter and nobody knows.

..and that's one of like 12 units...

Guitardian wrote:10 hot dogs for 8 hot dog buns. means you have to buy 5 packs of buns and 4 packs of hot dogs for it to even out.

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember. At least they used to sell sprues of stuff like 'ork close combat weapons' or 'space marine special weapons' or whatever but that is a thing of the past. I had to build my chimera with a leman russ heavy flamer because the chim didn't have one. Good thing I had that Leman Russ sprue laying around. This has been pissing people off for over a decade, but I think the intention is pretty obvious. Now I have to go and eat 40 hot dogs just to get my moneys worth.

Its not difficult to get the extra bits you need. There are tons of Ebay stores that sell a variaty of indivudal bits all over North America.

For example I want MMs on my Tac squad boxes. Instead of buying devistator boxes, I just buy some multimeltas on ebay for 1.50$ a piece. If I want 6 assault terminators, instead of buying 2x boxes of 5, I just buy 1 box of 5 and buy the bits to make a sixth terminator for 8$.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:There's a few models in the Eldar line up that's got equipment on their models that aren't allowed, and their codex is the most strict on WYSIWYG

Every codex is equally strict on WYSIWYG (it is not "WYSIWYG unles you are..."). Their new plastic sets have the official wording :"Every option included on the codex" or something added to their advertising.

don_mondo wrote:But see, you're supposed to buy entire kits you don't need just to get that one piece for the conversion!!

That is if you are making a conversion, many of what i listed above are standard run of the mill troops that you simply cant assemble. May be it is just me, but when i buy a Wolf pack box or a Tactical marines box or a dread, i expect to be able to assemble that same unit, with the options listen in the codex. I come from a far away land where when they sell you a car, it actually does come with 4 wheels.

Whereas I'm from a land of deoderant stick landspeeders and plasticard tanks (using patterns from GW). I've never found anything that I couldn't work up a decent conversin of from other GW models.

From the initial post list:
I'll admit that currently, SW puppy riders are problematical. But GW has had several different wolf/dog type models that can easily be used, while using biker legs and whatever torsos you want. But I can't really think of anything else. Combiweapon, ummm, stick something on a boltgun, voila, it's a combiweapon. Flamers, meltas, all kinds of kits have them, go out and get some. No idea what speeder/Dread weapons combos you're unable to find, but I'm sure whatever weapon you want is available somewhere, just up to you to put it on the vehicle.

Now, would it be nice if every unit in every codex had a kit that contained that unit and all of it's options. Hell yeah! I'd love to be able to buy a box containing an IG squad that had all the heavy weapons, all the special weapons, a commissar, all the sgt options, etc etc etc. But see, then I could just buy that one box instead of the three to four different kits that I do have to buy to get what I want, usually leaving me with lots of leftover bits that I'll never use.

xxvaderxx: If your point is that collecting a specific army is made difficult by gw, I agree! However, it is not made impossible--and converting is also not impossible as long as you dont mind some really terrible looking models.

So while wolfguard or sternguard dont get enough combimeltas to do a squad right out of the box, combimeltas ARE available elsewhere. Thus, while it may cost a billion dollars, the WYSIWYG option is possible, though you will end up with tons of models you may not have wanted. GW is fine with selling you more than you need!

It is a bigger problem saying that your 30 wolfguard all have a mix of combimeltas and combiplasma when all the models are armed with a bolter because GW didnt give you enough bits. There is no differentiation between them, thus in a tourney you will be misrepresenting your forces on the table.

DevianID wrote:xxvaderxx: If your point is that collecting a specific army is made difficult by gw, I agree! However, it is not made impossible--and converting is also not impossible as long as you dont mind some really terrible looking models.

So while wolfguard or sternguard dont get enough combimeltas to do a squad right out of the box, combimeltas ARE available elsewhere. Thus, while it may cost a billion dollars, the WYSIWYG option is possible, though you will end up with tons of models you may not have wanted. GW is fine with selling you more than you need!

It is a bigger problem saying that your 30 wolfguard all have a mix of combimeltas and combiplasma when all the models are armed with a bolter because GW didnt give you enough bits. There is no differentiation between them, thus in a tourney you will be misrepresenting your forces on the table.

My point is, while it is logical that GW looks to milk the easy buck out of you with 3 wheel cars, People should not buy into it. May be implement some other format like 80% of your model count has to be WYSIWYG and the rest does not but it has to be clearly identified. Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Otherwise some one could get on hard ass mode, come with a land speeder with a pensil sticked to it and call it an assault cannon, as "It is a converted, GW non supported codex option".

A few things:

1) OP: there certainly are modelling options for Flamers, plasma guns, Melta guns, and every heavy weapon(excepting Sternguard Heavy Flamers, and Master of the Forge Conversion Beamers) in fact in the case of Plasma and Melta guns you can buy a pack of 5 of each variant http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440277a&rootCatGameStyle=(about halfway down the page)

2) While yes this is a game it is also a hobby, so conversions are just about expected of many modelers(hence why some options, those that only 1-2 units per codex can take, never get official bitz) With things like Combi-weapons, you can cut a barrel of of a storm bolter and glue the barrel of the regular special weapon on(SW wolf pack box comes with some power armor storm bolters and several plasma pistols, viola combi-plasma). As far as whole units like the thunderwolves that gets a little stickier, but so long as you can tell what it is supposed to be you have WYSIWYG

Which leads me to:

3) WYSIWYG does not mean that all units must be 100% GW models, it means that all options must be represented on the models you bring to the table, and should be clear that all instances of x bit is y item rules-wise.

Also note that, Eldar aside, WYSIWYG only applies to options bought for units and characters; not to the rank and file of units. Eldar is special in that their codex does specify that all of any unit's wargear must be represented on the model(and then the guardians box does not have enough grenades to equip the entire unit).

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

If that is really your reason, you may want to talk with them; it seems that it would be illuminating for you.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

3) WYSIWYG does not mean that all units must be 100% GW models, it means that all options must be represented on the models you bring to the table, and should be clear that all instances of x bit is y item rules-wise.

This is essentially the point that I wanted to echo. There seems to be some confusion about the purpose and implementation of WYSIWYG in tournaments.

WYSIWYG in tournaments is in place NOT to help drive sales to Games Workshop but simply in an effort to allow players to be able to understand at a glance what their opponent is fielding. Players should never have to be confused as to what unit has what options. As long as all options are consistently and clearly marked somehow throughout the army, then you will never, ever be hassled in a tournament for WYSIWYG.

And really that rule is included in tournaments as sort of a safety net that is only ever enforced when it is felt that someone is potentially attempting to abuse it by confusing their opponent. That means there are a whole lot of WYSIWYG conventions that people/tournaments commonly use because the rule is only ever enforced when necessary:


1) If a unit comes standard with a bunch of wargear, then most people don't bother modeling all that gear if it doesn't come standard on the model (such as Bolt Pistols on marines).

2) If a unit or option has no official model, then obviously anything can be used as a stand-in provided it generally like the item in question.

3) You can even get away with breaking WYSIWYG as long as it is consistently done throughout the army. For example, if all your squads in the army have a certain upgrade, then it is usually fine to get away with not modelling that option on the models. But if *some* units have the upgrade while others do not, then it becomes imperative that the squads with the upgrade get properly modeled so that your opponent can actually tell at a glance which units have the upgrade.

Not to derail or hijack, but i have a question about WYSIWYG. what about Rough Rider model with a CCW, laspistol and Hunting Lance? they can legally be armed with any combo of 2.
but to save time/money, i'm thinking about giving some all 3. is that acceptable?

to the OP:
as an IG player, i feel your pain. look how many Vendetta, Hydra and Manticore variants there are.
i second getting bits from online stores or Feebay. hell, i've had some great finds here on the Swap Shop.

kirsanth wrote:

The_Happy_Pig wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote: Like solid crisom red marines in an ultramarine army to identify lass cannons for instance.

Don't you then run the risk of someone being just as precious and complaining that they can't possibly be Ultramarines because they're red?

I steer clear of tourneys and the crowd of regulars in my local GW store for this very reason.

If that is really your reason, you may want to talk with them; it seems that it would be illuminating for you.

I have and it was, not long after I started gaming I even took part in the local GW store event. I don't share their degree of religious fervour over what is (to my mind at least) a clever bit of marketing. To me, wargaming is a hobby and a way of having fun. At the end of the day it's playing toy soldiers, there's no need to be precious, aggressive or rules lawyering, all of these attitudes I came across at the event, which turned me off it, and made me think twice about any future events that might happen there.

I don't see the issue with making an extra copy of an army roster and giving it to your opponent so they know what you're fielding, or at least explaining what is on the table, along with clearly letting them know what's going on during the game. It's how my friends and I play, and it works for us.

If you do take it as seriously as some do, good luck to you, I'll just leave you be and continue playing the game with my friends. My point in my first post is that if people are going to be serious about WYSIWYG, then there won't be any way around it, not by differentiating models by anything else than showing the appropriate wargear, hence spending the extra money and time, some of us don't have that much of either to spare. I'm not going to argue if someone wants to field a unit with a special weapon but that for some reason or another they haven't got on the model, so long as I know beforehand. Anyone that tries to intentionally hide it from me and then hits me with a melta shot from a SM model holding just a bolter without letting me know what gear it's carrying isn't someone that I would want to play against.

If you really have a problem with modelling and doing some conversion work you are in the wrong hobby. The rules exist to support the miniatures. The miniatures do not exist to support the rules.

Combi-complainers are especially the worst at this. Combi weapons, in general, are abundant, and clipping off the barrel of one weapon to convert to another is about as Modelling 101 as it gets.

It is 2002, and I am playing in a big tournament at Dream Wizards and winning.

Third game, I am confident I will get win 4...I have the only painted army...and I know I scored well in sportsmanship ( my opponents told me the game against me was the best of the day).

Can't remember the mission, but you got uber bonus victory points for killing the HQ as well as battle points.

I assault a space wolf unit, putting my commander in base to base with a wolf carrying a power sword. Attacks start.

Wolf with power sword does not attack. I point this out to my opponent, as I do not want him to forget. He then goes..oh, thats a power fist. See? ( holds up list).

Not wanting to be a dick, I let him kill my commander, losing the game.

That is why you have Wysiwig.

I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, I always just assumed if it didn't exist then that only means it shall be modeled. If I only wanted a war strategy game I'm sure I could find a good one for the computer. And there are plenty of options to get just bits from various retailers, it's not that bad.

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible. I mean this is a game involving models, I always just assumed if it didn't exist then that only means it shall be modeled. If I only wanted a war strategy game I'm sure I could find a good one for the computer. And there are plenty of options to get just bits from various retailers, it's not that bad.

They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes.

If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

insaniak wrote:

Some players feel that WYSIWYG is nothing more than an excuse to make you buy more kits to get the options you need. In which case, GW not supporting certain options in certain kits forces you to buy other kits to get the parts you need for the first kit... which fits that theory nicely. Likewise, for units that don't exist you have to scratch-build or convert from other sets, which also often requires you to buy more than just a single set.

I totally agree insaniak whether you believe it or not, I do.

xxvaderxx wrote:

Shouldnt GW fully support all codex options like they do with DE before we even talk about WYSIWYG?

They don't fully support the DE codex have you seen what it has and what models they actually show? The spider thingy (can't remember the name off hand), The fighter (again can't remember the name off hand), and the Void Raven bomber all don't have models. (and please do not count Forge World its not an official model until I see it at my FLGS for a REASONABLE price)

Guitardian wrote:

Your tactical squad wants a multi melta? Well, you can get one of those with 5 devastators! lucky you. They have been doing that ever since I can remember.

No they haven't! Back when I started 40K, which is a good 7 years ago now, you used to be able to buy the little devestator guys in blister packs. I bought a Lascannon guy, a Plasma Cannon guy, and some others from blister packs. Now GW is being money hogs and they aren't even being subtle about it. They stopped releasing the blister packs so they make you buy a $30 Devestator squad just to get your one Multi-Melta guy or whatnot. Personally I think its price gouging! I love 40K and Warhammer in general but I do not like GW's marketing methods I agree with xxvaderxx that if I buy a car I want one with 4 wheels not one with 3 so I have to go buy another car to get the 4th wheel. Or if I buy a car with 4 wheels I want to be able to get the 4th wheel by itself from someplace.

I personally also hate WYSIWYG tournaments in the current addition because of these very reasons. I had to go buy 4 assault squads for a total of $88 then I had to go buy $10 worth of those darn meltagun packs that come by themselves which means I had to convert my Assault Squads (so they look sort of silly because I didn't want to bucher them any further to make them look right) and then I had to cut up another model for an inferno pistol. All just to get 2 10 man Assault squads with meltaguns and 2 sergeants 1 with an infernus pistol for a grand total of about $100 for 2 squads for a 1500pt tournament thank god that I had the rest of the army. (and for those who are wondering no I didn't win because the army I used wasn't that good, should have play tested it more )

cervidal wrote:If you really have a problem with modelling and doing some conversion work you are in the wrong hobby. The rules exist to support the miniatures. The miniatures do not exist to support the rules.

Combi-complainers are especially the worst at this. Combi weapons, in general, are abundant, and clipping off the barrel of one weapon to convert to another is about as Modelling 101 as it gets.

It's not that I have a particular problem with modelling or conversions. I can give a couple of examples of the GW event I attended:

I've converted a mob of fantasy Black Orcs to be Nobz. As I'm sure you are aware, some of the torsos are modelled so that they are holding a two handed weapon over their heads. I converted these to be holding Big Choppas, added Bosspoles, Stikkbombs, a Waaugh Banner, added Shootas where I could, but a couple of the ones with Big Choppas had that much stuff stuck on to their bodies that there was nowhere physically possible to glue on a shoota.
Someone aggressively complained because I said that the whole unit had twin linked Shootas, as per the codex, and some models weren't displaying any.

I also had 10 Nobz from the AoBR sets. Someone complained because I had said that they were in 'Eavy armour, and that they were modelled differently from the Black Orcs, which I had given 'Eavy armour to as well.

You may think that's fair enough. I just think that's being a dick. But that's just me.

Yep, just being a dick. Move on, they're everywhere and they're out to ruin your fun. Let them, or don't!

Just tell them it's orks! No two meks build things the same way!