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notabot187 wrote:Of course, their is the retail markup, which in GW products is only about 90 percent from wholesale price. Which is lower than the average retail markup. (most non food items have markups from about 100 percent to 200... which is why stores still make money when things are half off)

Some areas it's much higher than that. At my last job our customers (consumer electrical retailers) would typically markup in the region of 350%. More if they were in a remote area and could get away with it.

Fast food has a Markup of approximately 850%.

Where I used to work, A Hamburger cost 19¢ to make, and the normal price was €1.60.

And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Actually the cost of a normal sprue for their current machines is around £30k to make the mold.

You also assume that they have space on the machines, whcih themselves cost 1 - 2million apiece.

They only made profit on the OLD plastic rhino the year they stopped selling it.

The thing that pisses me off the most (ignoring the forgeworld thing, glad so many people have had great experiences there, and I wish me and more of my friends did too) is that GW RELIES on models with this availability.

Take Malifaux. Smaller company, and definitely doesn't have some models yet. But each model has a base size and height in the manual. So if you fielded a base with some other model on it as a conversion, it's still height 2 or whatever, can still be shot by the same things, still has the same base size and fits in the same places and does the same things.

GW, if I model a Tervigon as some brood mother lying down with eggs and gaunts spawning around her, and someone else models it as a roaring monstrosity with gaunts and swarms climbing up and down her, I get cover saves in situations where he doesn't. And which one of us is right? Well, watch people whine about modeling for advantage and all that... Hell, I had someone yell at me for a LR converted into a BW, and I'm generous about where side armor is when I'm using that model. But I was somehow cheating because the LR model is squarer than the BW model, when the BW model didn't exist for a long time... great job, GW.

Scott-S6 wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Also, if that was the rule, I can only see the options shrinking. Can you imagine them putting two of every heavy weapon, ten of every combiweapon and 2 each of every CCW option in a box with ten sternguard?

Actually yes i could, A- Reduce Codex options, B- Talking wolf standard, take out the useless 2 handed axe and may be a couple of bare heads (scouts ones for instance) and include 1 Flamer and 1 Melta. Done you are golden every option in the Claw/Hunters unit represented. All the bits to represent combis in WG. No added cost. They could have done it if they would have wanted to. But then again, if they do they cant sell you the 8 pound 4th wheel sprue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Augustus wrote:
I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

You do realize it is resin, not injection molded plastic, dont you? Resin warps and bends much more easily, however by the same token heating and reshaping is easy.

They told you exactly the right thing to do. I suggest some research on the materials next time.

I read this flippant dismissal, do I know it's resin? suggest some research? reshaping is easy? Right thing to do?

First off I see you are in the UK by your little flag, I suppose that makes you use to low quality, maybe they get replacement parts out there easier, not in my experience here in the US, as I said 'soak it in water' was what I got, not new parts, on to the technical stuff.

SOAK IT IN WARM WATER?

You have to be kidding, even suggesting this is absurd, it demonstrates that you have no idea how resin works. Resin is a chemical cure, once a piece is fabricated deformed and cures it doesn't matter how warm it gets afterward, it is hard and shaped and cured, it's never going to be strait, flat or right angled again. Furthermore resin is not as flexible as injection molded plastic, it is brittle, if you flex it instead of bending when it reaches the critical point it breaks. It doesn't have the ductile property of plastic at all, which is why suggesting to heat and bend it it ridiculous.

It's a cover customer support scam for low production quality.

I have seen thie first hand in many forgeworld kits I built, mostly for distraut people who came to me for help including:
Revenant Pulse Laser Arms
Tau Battle Suit Rail Guns
Rhino and Landraider Doors
Valkyrie Doors
Imperial Armored crew compartment insets
Thunder hawk gunship landing struts
Epic Leman Russ Tank Barrels and Track sides

Their process is incredibly low quality. I have built other resin kits from more manufacturers, particularly for Japanese kits, including precision sport bike bodies, and let me tell you forge world are complete amateurs (still)!

Instead of flippantly dismissing someone else's analysis how about you go do some research, like the first hand kind?

Back OT, even if you consider FW an alternative, what about THE KIT, all the forgeworld stuff is simply ad ons! The options should come in the box, and no I don't think a devastator box should come with 20 heavy weapons 5 of each option, but it is a great example as it DOES have at least one of each option and a couple extra, that's how everything should be.

As to kits with no kit at all, variety is great but how do you even know how big to make something when they do that? Or what base to use, if at all.

The defiler was a great example of this, I remember when they first came out, people were using metal chaos dreadnoughts with a battle cannon on them. Look at the model today, that was grossly mis sized and easy to hide compared to the massive footprint of a defiler. See how no kit is bad?

I agree with you Augustus, it is not a matter of if you could, is a matter of why should you. Would it be considered conversion, then ok you have to put your skills into it, but we are talking by the book codex standard troops. The 10 gray hunter/blood claw box does not even come with 10 bolters for crying out loud.

Sure!

I also wanted to say, I love that awesome potato head Stompa!

Um, perhaps before dismissing my supposed lack of first hand knowledge, you could have read the rest of the thread?

You are talking complete and utter rubbish. Having built about 20 - 30 models (most for myself, some for others) from FW, all the way up to a Chaos Warhound (which is more challenging than the reaver, by far), I can state with 100% certainty that heating in warm water and *gently* bending and shaping, repeating on occasion, WILL reshape warping.

It can be brittle, if you are too rough or too quick. But patience works.

And used to low quality in UK? A place where 2 year warranties are a legal minimum cf to the US 90 days, I doubt the UK is the one with the issues.

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

Think of all the stuff you could make with the extras from that!

(At least you can get the pieces somehow.)

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

It's actually 3 to make 2

I like WYSIWYG. I am a hobbyist as well as a gamer, so I have always enjoyed the converting and sometimes outright fabrication of necessary parts to make my army work.

yournamehere wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

You buy two tactical squads and a SW box. Use the extra bits for long fangs and maybe scouts or something else. And then find the combi-meltas any way you can like every other SM player has since GW started offering combi-weapons as options.

Or complain and next time GW won't include combi-weapons as an option since they aren't readily available (eg the point made above the one you quoted).

So, buy 3 kits to make 1, i am sure more than one politician would not see anything wrong with that...

It's actually 3 to make 2

No it is not, you need 4 meltas and 2 power fists to make the units, if a tactical brings 1, then it is 3 kits to make 1.

Augustus wrote:
SOAK IT IN WARM WATER?

You have to be kidding, even suggesting this is absurd, it demonstrates that you have no idea how resin works. Resin is a chemical cure, once a piece is fabricated deformed and cures it doesn't matter how warm it gets afterward, it is hard and shaped and cured, it's never going to be strait, flat or right angled again. Furthermore resin is not as flexible as injection molded plastic, it is brittle, if you flex it instead of bending when it reaches the critical point it breaks. It doesn't have the ductile property of plastic at all, which is why suggesting to heat and bend it it ridiculous.

Have you actually tried this? When it gets warm enough resin gets very soft. You can actually make a panel like a door floppy. You use a ruler or a tile to get it straight/flat and either let or cool or plunge it into cold water.

See the hair on the FW keeper of secrets? It's moulded straight. You warm it and shape it. See the hoses for the elysian flamers? moulded straight, you warm them and shape them.

ETA, if you do a google search you'll find loads of sites talking about this. For example
"Resin is very heat sensitive, only use very hot water or a hair dryer when you need to reshape a distorted part. Slight distortion of resin parts when demoulding or during storage is quite common & can easily be corrected by immersing the distorted part in hot water for a few seconds, re-shaping as required by hand & then immersing in cold water to `fix` the new shape."

It's very weird to see Augustus demonstrate that he has no idea how resin works.

IMO, the WYSIWYG rule is to ease the player to know what kind of equipment his/her opponent has on the table without relying on any data sheet.

I myself will always prepaid an army list so if any thing happens, I can show it to my opponent to indicate my army does have the listed options. To me that is fair and simple.

Scott - The best thing was that, despite being told to do this by the people who actually MAKE THE MODELS the poster instead ranted about how that was such a bad idea as they knew better....

Scott-S6 wrote:And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Sorry to chime in but the mark up everyone is talking about is a 2 tier system one for their own stores, the second for other retailers. over the past 5 to 6 years the profit margin for other retailers has been slowly cut by GW demanding more for the cost of the product, while also demanding Retaiers sell it at a fixed rate witch does not reflect the first mark up. ie: other retailers are making less and less money selling Gw stuff.

the fact is that GW stuff has a huge mark up on its products in some cases (but do to the nature of their standardization of pricing this really isnt a point) other than you give GW more money by buying direct or from a GW store), they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by their own stores, and finally the lowest profit comes in retailers.
i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true, the cost of making something that retails direct from GW for 30€ costs on average to make around 8 to 10 € (at the extream). they make 14 or 15€ offa retailer. unless they sell it to a retaier the price falls outside of what is called a normal markup. (of corse this info is out of date by about 3 years, but the trend at the time was that GW each year was making more profit per item not less.) only by comparing it to the retailers do you see a resonable and 'normal ' markup. the online direct or store markup is actually quite high compared to other companines selling similar products. this is actually very important. consider that selling to retailers uses a traditional mark up system, it is getting narrower but well within norms. its the direct sale and GW store sales that have you over the hood of the car with your pants down with out even a kiss. GW in no way has a modest mark up. It has a normal to slightly above averge one.

im not trying to argue a point here. belive what you want, it wont effect me in the slightest. ive seen the real numbers from a few stores concerning GW, and spent some time looking at GW's escalation of prices (no not what you the consumer pay) i know how most companies set mark up and pricings and the therrories behind it.


Sorry. edited for smoothness and clarification.

To the OP its anoying that GW does not put out every model they have a listing for in the army books and codexes. they say its so people can have some fedom to convert and let their imaginations run wild. me personally i think they are just lazy.

Hawkins wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:And yet GW manages to support a huge product range and a massive network of retail stores with a pretty modest markup. Doesn't stop everyone complaining about prices though.

Sorry to chime in but the mark up everyone is talking about is a 2 tier system one for their own stores, the second for other retailers. over the past 5 to 6 years the profit margin for other retailers has been slowly cut by GW demanding more for the cost of the product, while also demanding Retaiers sell it at a fixed rate witch does not reflect the first mark up. ie: other retailers are making less and less money selling Gw stuff.

the fact is that GW stuff has a huge mark up on its products, they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by retailers, and finally the lowest profit comes in from their own stores.
i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true, the cost of making something that retails direct from GW for 30€ costs on average to make around 8 to 10 €. they make 14 or 15€ offa retailer. unless they sell it to a retaier the price falls outside of what is called a normal markup. (of corse this info is out of date byabout 3 years, but hte trend at the time was that GW each year was making more profit per item not less.)

im not trying to argue a point here. belive what you want, it wont effect me in the slightest. ive seen the real numbers from a few stores concerning GW, and spent some time looking at GW's escalation of prices (no not what you the consumer pay) i know how most companies set mark up and pricings and the therrories behind it from large stores like wallmart, to smaller mom and pop shops.

In the UK you cannot fix prices hence, here at least, many retailers sell below GWs retail prices.

It IS interesting that independent retailers have taken the decision to slash the sell prices of GW merchandise whilst GW continue within their pre-existing corporate price structure.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Scott - The best thing was that, despite being told to do this by the people who actually MAKE THE MODELS the poster instead ranted about how that was such a bad idea as they knew better....

Yes. "I know how resin works so I'm not going to follow your advice, just bitch about you on the internet." If he follows his normal pattern he'll just ignore this now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:I have seen thie first hand in many forgeworld kits I built, mostly for distraut people who came to me for help

I think this is the problem, he likes to be the model-making guru. So if he can't build the kit it must be the manufacturer's fault, not his.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hawkins wrote: they make the most cash by internet sales direct to the customers, fallowed then by their own stores, and finally the lowest profit comes in retailers.

That would be the exact same as every company.

Hawkins wrote:i dont know where your getting your info that GW has a low markup but it simply isnt true,

All of the figures regarding their costs and markups are in their accounts which are public.

Every weapon option you ever wanted is already available in this add on set that GW produces.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for a simple meltagun conversion. A bolter with the magazine and barrel cut off - replace barrel with suitable sized piece of tubing, add a piece of wire or string of suitable thickness to the underside. The vents on the "melta" barrel could then be painted on unless you wanted to cut them out.

GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Which amazes me still, why GW stopped their bits service?. The amount of bits shops online and on eBay scream as to why GW should never have given this up. I imagine it was a profit analysis moment, but ultimately this kind of after sales service is what retains customers. I miss the old Blue, Red and Green part catalgoues of old.

With regard WYSIWYG, this is why I love Tau. Everything you'll ever need is in the box. Hobby wise I am often making up fictitious models and weapons, rather than struggling to build something that isn't a standard sprue item. I really empathise toward those who persevere with other ranges.

Which ultimately returns to my first point; Why in the blazes do you stop a bits service when your rule system encourages as much? Sure, forcing folks to buy "more" seems obvious, but far far fewer people would be prepared to do so, compared to the majority paying higher than base costs for a single part. Every bits sale on eBay and online stores self evident of this culture.

- Tael.

The bitz services are all about splitting up sprues - GW's bitz service never did that.

The bitz service cost too much to run and operate. It always worked at a loss. In addition the markup in store is low compared to normal retail, and they are banned from cutting prices - CC decreed ages back they cant over compete with other retail, as they have an effective monopoly on the model market. The average profit *per box* is less than 50p after you take operating costs into account.

Augustus had already ignored 2 comments, a 3rd was unlikely. Apparently being an amateur model builder makes you know more than the company that has been working with the stuff for quite a few years....

Shas'El Tael wrote:

GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Which amazes me still, why GW stopped their bits service?. The amount of bits shops online and on eBay scream as to why GW should never have given this up.

Actually, it screams exactly why GW was right to give it up. For all those bit sellers, for every piece they want to sell, the have to buy entire kits to get them. And certain bits, like TH/SS sell very well, but a lot of other things in the kit, not so much. That's why places like Battlewagon bits have their grab bag deals, it's how they get rid of a lot of stuff that doesn't move. IF GW was giving the plastic bits service, then they wouldn't have sold a whole kit, they would've sold just the one part, and they'd still have the rest of the sprue to deal with. That was supposed to be one of the problems with the metal service, that certain bits were very popular, but the rest that came out of that particular mold ended up sitting around taking up space.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The bitz service cost too much to run and operate. It always worked at a loss. In addition the markup in store is low compared to normal retail, and they are banned from cutting prices - CC decreed ages back they cant over compete with other retail, as they have an effective monopoly on the model market. The average profit *per box* is less than 50p after you take operating costs into account.

Augustus had already ignored 2 comments, a 3rd was unlikely. Apparently being an amateur model builder makes you know more than the company that has been working with the stuff for quite a few years....

If they only manage to make 50p per box at the price they sell things, then their operating costs are way too high.

Most likely it is because they run a large number of corporate own stores, that only sell their product line. They also try to sell to independent retailers. So they are exposed heavily to their own products variable demand, AND they are competing against a group of their largest customers. For a company that is just trying to be a model selling company, why do they spend so much money on running stores? They could just franchise or close all those stores, and just focus on making models... Non GW stores aren't that uncommon, and a franchise system could be a good way to expand into markets without GW taking on risk. It just doesn't seem like a good way to run a business in this day and age.

A franchise system would be a good idea I think, but I'm not sure, as a GW Store isn't like a McDonalds, so I doubt the operating mechanics are the same. It could very well be what makes a franchise work for McDonalds is not what would work for a GW.