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Scott-S6 wrote:

Augustus wrote:I am really excited about the new Dark Eldar, but in the same breath I'd be sad to be a Tyranid player out there waiting for a Ymgarl Stealers, a Tyrannofex, and Shrikes etc. (Or a Bloodraven gunship, or Vendetta..., or a Hydra,...)

Only two of those don't have models (tyrannofex and stormraven). Ymargl stealers are normal stealers with feeder tendrils, shrikes, vendettas and hydras can be had from forgeworld.

ORLY? Show me here:

http://www.games-workshop.com

Forge World sucks.

There I said it. Everything I have ever ordered from them has been low casting quality, occasionally chipped, often warped or distorted, poorly proportioned, brittle, and generally poorly fit in the first place as well, besides being monstrously expensive with absurd shipping rates.

Even assuming that we count Forgeworld, what about op Sternguard? or the VoidBomber, Librarian Dreadnought? Death Company Dread? Vendetta? Doom of Malanti? Flying Rippers? Tervigon? Thunder wolf Cavalry?

Just like many players, GW never seems to finish their own new armies either. It is a recurring pattern.

Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Vendetta conversion kit, forgeworld. Flyng rippers, forgeworld.

You will find you are so wrong. The OLD method was - all models in a coex have to be available day 1. So you had a codex release, then nothing. Or you had units cut because there was no model. Etc.

Now, you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have? ...you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

I like options. I like room for scratch building. I'm glad there is variety too.

I don't think they have to have everything day one. (Honestly I don't ever remember a time of 'everything day one' policy, and I have been playing for, well, ever). I like staggered releases, just to know things are coming is all I'd like. However writing (codex) entries for things with no basis even for a model is unfortunate.

Am I in the minority (for not liking forge world or for wanting all the kits to be made)? Either way, I can accept that, fair enough.

Lolz at bit sites charging thru the ass for popular bits and only carrying a handful of them.

Augustus wrote:about op Sternguard? or the VoidBomber, Librarian Dreadnought? Death Company Dread? Vendetta? Doom of Malanti? Flying Rippers? Tervigon? Thunder wolf Cavalry?

Sternguard models are available from GW. Vendetta and flying rippers from forgeworld. Clawed dreadnought arms, forgeworld. Forceweapon dreadnought arms, forgeworld.

Tervigon & Thunderwolves, fair enough. Those are two of the three most recent codexes though - you can't expect all of the new stuff immediately. It makes more sense to trickle it out and use it as a way of reviving interest in the line.

Voidbomber - the codex isn't even out yet and you're complaining about lack of model? If you're going to pull that then why not bitch about all of the dark eldar range - there's practically nothing available at the moment.

Augustus wrote:I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

That's what you have to do with resin - it often distorts as it cools, just one of those things.


At the moment Marines, Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Daemons, Templars, Tau, Necrons all have pretty much everything.
Guard are missing the colossus
Blood Angels are missing the stormraven
Wolves are missing the wolves
Nids are missing the Tervigon, Tyrannofex and Harpy
Dark Eldar are missing a bunch of stuff but that's not a suprise.

That's not too bad really, in my opinion.

THing is, even though a lot of the models are available from Forge World, not every person is: a) willing/able to pay up for it or b) wants to deal with added difficulties of working with resin.

However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Case in point:

The Mr. Potato Head Stompa. While this is exaggerating, and the guy who built this would have built it regardless of whether or not the GW plastic kit existed or not, we have to remember that giving us a chance to add our own variety to the tabletop is kind of a major aspect of 40k. Not all Forge Worlds use the same patterns, and nothing looks the same when the Orks are involved. Not giving us a model for EVERYTHING kind of helps to encourage that kind of diversity.

I'm so into Wysiwig, I dress as my general.

Sucks when I play my sisters...that corset is tight.

I was asked to leave a Gamesday though...I was playing my Slannesh Daemonnets army.....

I don't mind it if GW releases codexes without the models or bits available. Early 4ed GW was doing quite the opposite -- if there was not a current model then it was cut from the codex. eg 4ed marine dex had two razorback options and that was it. Same with dread options, they jetisoned most of them since they weren't in the kit.

So I am glad GW has instead added some options and units that give them opportunities to release new goods later on. Or so that those hobbiest like myself are free to make their own.

Now availability of common bits and sprues needed for WYSWIG -- I will go on record as lamenting the end of their bits service and option to buy indvidual sprues. The bits services are filling that void to some degree but not in the same manner as old.

Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

Today I decided to completely alter my command squad from a horrible load out (built before I got to play my first sm game) to something that should hopefully be usable. 20 min. on ebay, $12 Canadian (whats that, like a 5er for you in the UK?) and a 10 min scrounge through my bits box and I have everything I need to change all but 1 model over to a new load out. Not to mention new bits freed up for use.

This is why I just don't see such a huge problem, can it be annoying? Sure, but it is easily solvable and nothing to get up tight about.

I'm going to post this as a bitter Tyranid ex-player.

I didn't like the looks of the extended armor on the genestealers, but I wanted the improved 4+ armor save, so I put those bits on every one of my genestealers. They now do nothing.

I put scything talons on all of my Warriors and some broods of my Genestealers because I liked the looks, and the rules. They changed the rules.

I bought bits to be able to equip one entire squad of genestealers with feeder tendrils. Those now do nothing.

I put flesh hooks on several squads for the benefits of moving through terrain and assaulting into cover. They eliminated those rules.


Don't buy, model, or paint stuff that you don't want to buy, model, or paint, regardless of GW rules or WYSIWYG. First, it is your money, time, and effort. Second, it is entirely possible that GW will then simply change the rules, so that your time, money, and effort go to waste. If GW would make a lasting commitment to particular rules, then I might be much more likely to support their WYSIWYG stance. For instance, given that every thing in the rules costs points, they could change points costs rather than rules, if a particular rule is too weak or too strong.

However, they have shown a repeated willingness to simply make previous rules (and WYSIWIG wargear) extinct, thus negating the efforts of people who attempted to jump through their hoops. Model the model the way you want. Buy, paint and play with non-GW models. Don't go to their tournaments if they don't allow you. If they don't want customers, don't be one.

Can you also spot the guy who removed the purity seals from every single one of his Space Wolf models, because Space Wolves couldn't have them? Also the guy who made sure that all the guys with grenades were actually equipped with them? They guy who made sure the Wolf Tail Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace was present on every Space Wolf who had one, and NOT present on the ones who didn't? The guy who correctly equipped all of his Ork Commandos with their optional Tankbusta bombs, buying metal Tankbustas to cut up to do so, only to have that option removed in the new Codex? The guy who hoarded all of the Chain-Choppas to make his Skarboys distinctive, only to have them removed from the new Codex?

It took me a while to pick up the lesson GW was trying to teach me, but I finally got it. They don't care what you do with the stuff they sell you. They want your money. Reciprocally, you shouldn't care what they want YOU to do with the stuff you bought from them. Those belong to you now.

I don't want that to sound like I hate GW entirely. I have met a lot of really nice people who work, or have worked there. Even some of the people I most strenuously disagree with (JJ) are very nice, cool people. I love their "universe", most of their fiction, and almost all of their imagery. However, they cannot make any sort of commitment to you that the modeling project that you might undertake to meet with their rules and guidelines won't be obsoleted (or even illegal) in a rule set that might be a year, or a month, away. If you are planning on enjoying the hobby for longer than that, plan accordingly.

xxvaderxx wrote:

winterman wrote:
Finally the OP was lamenting a few options being missing for Space Wolves, specifically flamers and meltas and the like. I think he is missing the point of the Space Wolf box -- it is intended to be mixed with other SM kits. It is not a standalone box that provides every possible bit for the entire army. This was mentioned in their press junket but obviously the website and description does not spell this out.

Then please tell me which 2 boxes do i need to get to assemble 2 9 man gray hunters with melta and a 2 guard with combi melta and power fist (2 10 man units)

2 SW wolf pack Boxes, and a blister of 5 Meltas.

Sure the blister will cost an extra $8; but alternatively you can find any length of small tubing around your house(or chop the Forearms, off of some of your spare arms, and yes you will have plenty) and fit that tubing(or forearm), after trimming, to the end of 2 bolters, and one of the barrels of 2 storm bolters. Remember to cut the clips off of the 2 regular bolters.

There you have it 2 10-man squads outfitted exactly as you want them and it will only cost you $74.50 or $82.50(USD, and GW List price)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Forgeworld - pay twice as much for half the quality.

If he's in the minority, it's because the only people who order from failworld anymore are the devotees.

RisingPhoenix wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Augustus - then you are in the minority. Did you call them to ask about the issues you have?

Forgeworld - pay twice as much for half the quality.

If he's in the minority, it's because the only people who order from failworld anymore are the devotees.

My Valk from FW sucked ass and is now bits of a LR Steam Tank counts as and a some futuristic flyer - Total crap from FW.

My other purchases have been great.

Generalise much?

Did you contact them with your dissatisfaction, and give them a chance to rectify the situation.

Because I've never-ever heard of FW refusing the opportunity to.

My valk was £20 from GD 2009 and it was tainted by evil and afflicted by bad luck.

FW are always good when it comes to miscasts and warped damaged parts. Whenever I have had a problem they have always resolved it.

ChrisWWII wrote:THing is, even though a lot of the models are available from Forge World, not every person is: a) willing/able to pay up for it

The same applies to stuff straight from GW. If you find a model to be too expensive then convert something or don't take it. I don't have any marine bikes - I think that £7 each is just ridiculous.

ChrisWWII wrote:However, I'm also not in favor of having GW put every possible option for every possible unit in each box. Not having some of those bitz kind of encourages the hobby community to look at alternative ways to build them or otherwise get the model. Think about how many cool conversions you've seen because a person wanted a model, but GW didn't provide access to that model for them.

Also, if that was the rule, I can only see the options shrinking. Can you imagine them putting two of every heavy weapon, ten of every combiweapon and 2 each of every CCW option in a box with ten sternguard?


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Now, you have options. And still people complain. NOTHING they can do will please everyone, at least this way I have OPTIONS to build more interesting armies. Your method would negate that.

I don't understand why having an option that there's no model for is a problem for some people. You don't want to convert it (or buy it from forgeworld) then take something else.

Da Butcha wrote:I'm going to post this as a bitter Tyranid ex-player.

I didn't like the looks of the extended armor on the genestealers, but I wanted the improved 4+ armor save, so I put those bits on every one of my genestealers. They now do nothing.

I put scything talons on all of my Warriors and some broods of my Genestealers because I liked the looks, and the rules. They changed the rules.

I bought bits to be able to equip one entire squad of genestealers with feeder tendrils. Those now do nothing.

I put flesh hooks on several squads for the benefits of moving through terrain and assaulting into cover. They eliminated those rules.

Fair points about the flesh hooks and armour, but scything talons are still pretty good. And while they changed the rules, they still gave +1A to models that have them in their base stat line most of the time (for example, Hormagaunts were basic Gaunts in the 4th edition codex. Now they're 2A Hormagaunts which also reroll 1's in assault.

However, I just don't put biomorphs on my models. I don't like them, and my group of friends won't care if I use biomorph rules, as long as it's obvious which models have what. But hey, that's a problem with the 5th ed Tyranid codex, they just ripped out 3/4 of the options and put nothing in their place.

xxvaderxx wrote:

yournamehere wrote:I have never understood the big deal with GW's inability to have all the models, and pieces for them possible.....They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes....If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

They are selling 3 wheels cars, which i am sorry to say, i am not buying, i try to keep everything original, but i am not going out of my way to buy missing box parts, i will just mold and copy a combi what ever until they come in the boxes.

If they can do it for DE they can do it for the rest of the range, or they need to reduce the options.

As many posters have stated, WYSIWYG is there to make it easier for people to tell what is on the table, without needing to consult the army list all the time.

Nothing is forcing you to take, say, four Plasma Cannons in your devastator box. It's an option, because options make the game interesting, but a relatively uncommon one, and it's your choice if you want to do it.

You seem to be in favour of GW offering LESS options/models/weapon options in the codex just so that every model kit is 'complete'. A similar argument arose a few weeks ago about GW not releasing model kits for certain units. I have the same answer to both.

GW have a limit to how many plastic kits they can release. Yes, they could 'dumb down' every Codex so that the only options you have are the ones they can physically manufacture, but this would make the game less interesting. There is absolutely no disadvantage to fill the codex full of interesting, fun, cool units that spark the imagination of the players, whether GW can manufacture models for them or not. You lose nothing by including these 'modelless units', but you gain a lot in army variety, fluff, possibility for theme, and in the cool conversions that result.

Your theory seems to be "There is no boxed set for IG Veterans, so unless they're prepared to release a box of 10 vets with 3 plasma, 3 melta, 3 flamer, one of each heavy weapon team, demolitions upgrade, carapace armour parts, camo cloaks and various Sgt weapons, they should remove Vets from the game". Or, just give Vets less options. Either of these 'solutions' would stunt the creativity of players and make IG more identikit and less varied. It's a terrible idea.

Augustus wrote:
I would think calling Forgeworld with quality concerns would be a waste based on one experience I had with that, when I built the old Valkyrie kit (long before the current plastic one) I had curved doors, they told me to soak them in hot water...

You do realise it is resin, not in jection molded plastic, dont you? Resin warps and bends much more easily, however by the same token heating and reshaping is easy.

They told you exactly the eright thing to do. I suggest some research on the materials next time.

However if you have *actual* problems (missing parts, mis-molds) then I have never, ever, in 6 years of dealing with them, ever had them refuse to help me or any of my friends. In fact normally they send out replacements immediately via special delivery (g'teed next day by 9am) with profuse apologies. Hell once they even paid for my macharius hull mismold to go back to their QA (it was a horrid, easy to spot mismold. Like half the hull) so they could "beat them round the head with it" and sent *2* full kits in replacement, 1 as you would expect and 1 for the (VERY minor) inconvenience of sending the mismold back. At a time when the macharius vulcan was outselling everything 2:1 and had a huge backlog...hope I didnt annoy someone else too much who had to wait longer for theirs!

FW customer service is *fantastic* with actual issues. Not understanding the product is not an issue they can deal with.

Augustus wrote:I don't think they have to have everything day one. (Honestly I don't ever remember a time of 'everything day one' policy, and I have been playing for, well, ever). I like staggered releases, just to know things are coming is all I'd like. However writing (codex) entries for things with no basis even for a model is unfortunate.

4th ed policy, in essence. If there was no model available day 1, it just got cut from the codex. Marked change in 5th era is that they have realised that staggered is good, and releasing new models

Augustus wrote:Am I in the minority (for not liking forge world or for wanting all the kits to be made)? Either way, I can accept that, fair enough.

I think most people who dislike forgeworld expect resin == injection molded plastic. It isnt. Which is good, because it can do things you cannot do currently (greater detail, undercuts, etc) but it comes at a cost - more labour intensive, by far, higher failure rate during production, etc. If you temper expectations by realising that you will have to do some work (e.g. clearing off the surface release fluid) you have a better outlook on the product.

ChrisWWII - agreed that not everyone wants to deal with Forgeworld, however that is then preference - you cannot complain there is no model, be pointed to one, and then complain it is too hard / costs too much - neither are valid complaints!

I am DEFINITELY against them putting every codex weapon combo in the box. You should get 1 of each - otherwise you would have to provide:

Dev box = 4 x lascannon, missile, multimelta, plasma cannon,...
= 75% wastage on weapons alone. So expect 4 times the cost of the box - happy to pay £80 for 5 models that come with 75% extra you will not use?

Da Butcha - so your models which provided a ROI over what, 4 years on average you will now not bother with? And you belive this is GWs fault? Should they have to support, ad infinitum, every model and every option in every codex, never changing the rules?

You are also wrong; it isn't THEIR rules on WYSIWYG (the actual rules on wysiwyg only apply, apart from Eldar, to upgrade andn other characters. Noone else) but any tournament tha tenforces it. And that is at the behest of annoyed TOs wanting to be able to do something abotu people who cheat.

Rising Phoenix - awesome post, really added value. Any other useful generalities backed up with absolutely nothing of any relevance you care to provide?

Scott - agreed. If they provide bland codexes, people complain. So they add options in for more interesting stuff, but cant produce all the new models initially (as people dont understand that you need room on the machines to produce the new sprues, or really anything about how manufacturing works in reality and not their own fantasies) so people complain. They include more options in a box (seriously, compare sprues from even 3 years ago to current models. The amount of free space is significantly lower - so you get a higher part density on the same area) but that requires more work, so the prices go up. And then people complan that the prices are too high and STILL complain that they cannot produce a 4 missile Dev squad from a single box, ignoring that to have all the options would push the price even higher....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Dev box = 4 x lascannon, missile, multimelta, plasma cannon,...
= 75% wastage on weapons alone. So expect 4 times the cost of the box - happy to pay £80 for 5 models that come with 75% extra you will not use?

This is exactly the situation with IG HWSs currently. It's nice to have all of the options in the box but it's clearly making it much more expensive.

I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

The price of GW models has to do with other factors, not the cost of materials. GWs prices have to do with a large overhead of brick and mortar stores (which don't always do well...) the debt they accrued from growing their stores (and a few mistakes and other issues), and from marketing their IP. If they were to get rid of the stores, they could do business with much smaller income per unit.

I also have to point out that forge world doesn't put out the highest quality resin models. The sculpts look really good, but the QA isn't the greatest, and they have issues with the blend they use (sometimes too much filler, which affects the brittleness). I've used a fair amount of resin both in work and in hobbies, and I know they can easily use a better blend for just a little bit more (of their cost, their margins should really be good as is... except it is British labor isn't it?)

It is a bit frustrating to be a nids player and have three MCs (tervigon, tyrranofex and harpy) where not only is there no model there's not even a guide of how to covert or what base size to use (MC vs Trygon). The special characters I don't mind so much. That at least you know what the base model is (tyrant for swarmlord for example) and you can just do a bit of extra dressing on the model to get it to stand out. Still an effort should be made to make them somehow look different, even if it's just a different paint job so the opponent can say "oh the pink ones are carnifexes and the lavender ones are tervigons."

To me as others have already said, it is about being able to look at the models and differentiating what weapons they have. If there are any exceptions they should be noted before the game starts.

Scott and Nosferatu: Oh, I know and completely understand. I don't want GW to make out a model for EVERYTHING just because I'm too lazy to convert one, or cough up the money to buy from FW. E.g. I really want Hydras, but I don't want to pay for FW Hydras. Solution? Standard Chimera chassis conversion to a Hydra. Simple, easy and done! (Though I may have to use the Bassie kit for that...ehh...) I'll find a way to make the Hydra, and I recognize that the complaint isn't valid....just something I should toss out there.

But yes. I think all of us agree it's just ridiculous to put every possible option into every possible box. Just think about that would mean for a unit as simple a IG Veterans. To give them EVERY option, you would need: 3 of every special weapon, 1 of each Heavy Weapon, as well as all the other miscellaneous bitz they toss in with IG. That would simply be ridiculous, and really add to the amount of waste in plastic.

And I somehow doubt most of the cost of GW comes from the plastic itself. I'm willing to bet much more of the cost comes from the amount of money it took to develop and sculpt the original model, as well as the cost required to make molds detailed enough to produce them. That and transport. I'm guessing that's where most of the cost for GW models comes from, and why a bunch of plastic Guardsmen is about 10x more expensive than larger box of little green army men.

notabot187 wrote:I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

Assuming you discount the costs of design, mould making, packaging, etc.

And do you really think they produce large volume? They make an incredibly niche product. Most action figures outsell GW products dramatically. How many people do you think play 40K?


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ramongoroth wrote:It is a bit frustrating to be a nids player and have three MCs (tervigon, tyrranofex and harpy) where not only is there no model there's not even a guide of how to covert or what base size to use (MC vs Trygon).

I agree with this 100% - there should have been an article in WD or on the website explaining what base size and roughly what size they should be.

Don't forget the moulds cost OMFGBBQ money, especially for such a tiny company like GW. IIRC they only recently started making a profit again after all the money they spent on LOTR stuff.

I think their last years profit was like £3.5m? That's pissmoney compared to something like Mattel, who make Bajillions.

Gwar! wrote:Don't forget the moulds cost OMFGBBQ money, especially for such a tiny company like GW. IIRC they only recently started making a profit again after all the money they spent on LOTR stuff.

I think their last years profit was like £3.5m? That's pissmoney compared to something like Mattel, who make Bajillions.

Just to throw some numbers in - in 2007 Transformers toys sold for double GW's total sales. Don't forget that GW runs a huge number of product lines all with their own costs. In comparison the transformers range is a relatively small number of products.

Great, Dark Eldar Warriors with massive loincloths. Just what I needed to see in the morning.

The reason is simple: money! GW makes money off of conversions, and besides, conversions work as a bit of advertisement for the hobby anyway.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is exactly the situation with IG HWSs currently. It's nice to have all of the options in the box but it's clearly making it much more expensive.

Actually, I love HWS boxes. I used the excess weapons to build the lascannons for my vendettas, TLLC for my AOBR Dread, twin linked HB, my counts-as Harker, a Sentinel that was missing a lascannon... Really, those are the one set of excess bitz that I've used the hell out of. Oh, plus using each of the crouching guys with a standing guy on a base is an awesome way to milk two HWS out of a single kit.

Scott-S6 wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I would just like to add that plastics price is measured in cents per pound... so it costs nearly nothing to add all options to a sprue (especially since they seem to think adding useless things and extra basic weapons is ok). Changeover isn't even a real issue with the volume they make.

Assuming you discount the costs of design, mould making, packaging, etc.

And do you really think they produce large volume? They make an incredibly niche product. Most action figures outsell GW products dramatically. How many people do you think play 40K?

Design is a one time charge, considering how often they change their models for most ranges, yes I will discount that. The tooling is expensive, but once again, it is a one time charge. Packaging is cheap too. Marketing is where you get some nasty costs...

As for volume: You don't need that much volume to make injection molding profitable. GW is well over that threshold. Their costs have to do with overhead. They have a large store network that generally is not profitable, or marginally so. Other companies sell metal models for less than GW sells plastics, at MUCH lower volume... but they don't have brick and mortar building with sales staff that must be paid sales or no sales.

50 bucks for assault terminators, who don't really require any more cost than a 25 dollar box of scouts. The expense is NOT in the actual product, but paying for every thing else. This includes rules support (lol) marketing, payment of debt incurred, high cost of employment (GB isn't a cheap or efficient place to run a factory), and taxes on all the retail properties they own. 1 percent profit selling 50 cent boxes of plastic for 50 bucks is what I think they managed last year. That after a 10 percent price hike.

Of course, their is the retail markup, which in GW products is only about 90 percent from wholesale price. Which is lower than the average retail markup. (most non food items have markups from about 100 percent to 200... which is why stores still make money when things are half off)