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 Grimskul wrote:

 Boris420 wrote:
⬆️ Great insight! Speaking of Deathskulls are Stormboyz worth taking over Kommandos for any reason with this kultur or in general? They would get obsec obviously with Skulls but they would cost considerably more to field. They probably get shot off anyways like Kommandos but similarly they could score objectives while delivering double killsaws on backfield targets.

Personally, I feel like that's a no. Kommandos are far cheaper and have almost the same level of mobility thanks to deep striking. Stormboyz with their paper thin armour can only really threaten backfield units if you start investing points into them and then at that point you may as well have just go for a better platform for damage.

I' m not so sure. After DS Kommandos are stucked. Typical situation is, you DS them T3 somewhere to do some VP and than you need to move them to another part of the table. To get Engage for example. Or kill something else. And Stormboyz can do that. I really think about them and want to try them near in the future.

I'm using storm boyz instead of kommandoz, because I lack the models. Their extra movement and FLY really doesn't ever matter.

It's hide or die, once you managed to hide, they are performing actions, hold table quarters or deployment zones and sometimes come out to score or interrupt an objective.
Usually they just die after scoring VP once though - my opponents have figured out that those 5 man squads are the key to me winning games, and there is always a spare gun somewhere to gun them down.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm using storm boyz instead of kommandoz, because I lack the models. Their extra movement and FLY really doesn't ever matter.

It's hide or die, once you managed to hide, they are performing actions, hold table quarters or deployment zones and sometimes come out to score or interrupt an objective.
Usually they just die after scoring VP once though - my opponents have figured out that those 5 man squads are the key to me winning games, and there is always a spare gun somewhere to gun them down.

Indeed, my opponents have figured this out long ag haha hah... But still I think stuff like wyverns and whilwinds/Thunder fire canon are really overlooked by those spoiled imperium players. Just one of them are enough to really mess with small scoring units (perhaps not enough to kill the SM one though).

enni wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys. having a friendly match soon against a custodies player, and i intend to bring a Da Boomer, A kannon wagon, a Gorkanaut and an auxillary gargantuan squiggoth with supa kannon (which wont get any klan kulture of course).

the rest is just chaff units to take points etc.

Anyway, i cant figure out if the Gorkanaut, Boomer and kannon wagon benefits the most from being Evil sunz where you throw visions in the smoke on the boomer (or one of the others in case it dies) to make it extra killy with more dakka, or its more beneficial to simply go Bad Moon.

Going evil sunz is risky if you fail your casting, but rewarding by turning at least one of those 3 vehicles in to a murder machine, where as if Bad Moonz just outright buffs all 3 vehicles with rerollings of 1 in the shooting phase. But im terrible with math so i dont know if rerolling 1s for all 3 vehicles in the shooting phase is better than turning 1 vehicle in to a reroll all failed hits and potentially throwing more dakka on it.

I think the sad truth is that the answer is as always: deathskulls

Reasons:

1) deathskull rerolls are per attack sequence and hence the boomer gunwagon benefits twice.

2) as all your platforms offer you a reasonable amount of shots, you may asume to be able to use both rerolls at least halve the times you shoot. In this case the 2 rerolls are just like having +1.5 extra shots. (I have the impression I use both rerolls nearly 75 percent of time, be it only on a big shoota)

Average 2d6 = 7, so you will on average roll one 1 and bad moons reroll 1s gives you like +1 shot

Blast gives you 12 shots for two 1s on average and hence +2 shots.

Vision in the smoke has like a 70 percent chance to be cast on gunwagon or kannonwagon (without modifiers or denies) and less than 30 percent to resolve on gorkanaut.

The benefits are great as you effectively gain

almost +5 shots on average da boomer rolls (+8 if it uses its blast)

more than +3 shots from kannonwagon (+6 on blast)

with visions only one vehicle gains a 50 percent boost while deathskulls rerolls will up the output of all by approximately 20 percent (gorkanaut gains less).

3) deathskulls rerolls work in cc

4) deathskulls give your entire army a 6++

5) all your infantry gains obsec

If you like playing bad moons and its a friendly game with less of a competitive mindset then go for it. I really like them (fluff wise). The one thing that really made them stand out was their shoot twice on infantry strat.

Visions walkers are just cool, but can really fail you. How can custodes deny other than 12" strat or allies?

I'm more and more annoyed by the disparity of culture benefits and stratagem quality, time for a new codex i guess.

By the way: more dakka is just a multiplier of 8/6 instead of dakka dakka's 7/6. You only truely gain from it if there are negative to hit modifiers

Thanks for your reply. I actually didnt know that deathskulls would allow me to get 1 reroll per sequence for da boomer thats pretty neat.

The reason i thought about bad moonz was that i think it was concluded that 15+ shots made bad moonz better than death skullz, and i felt like da boomer with 4D6 total shots, which im guessing would average 12 shots at least reaches that point somewhat, and the gorkanaut which has way more than 15 shots total would benefit decently from bad moonz. The kannonwagon would benefit but not more than deathskullz though.

It definitely changes some things if da boomer gets a total of 2 rerolls for the hit and wound phase as it happens twice. So i suppose that kicks bad moon out the window, even though im guessing that the gorkanaut would benefit the most from bad moon over deathskullz.

One thing to note is that if the enemy gets close and i manage to put visions on the gorkanaut, then it also rerolls its failed hits in CC. but that too is difficult to achieve with the high casting requirement.

Its so difficult for other klan kultures to compete with deathskullz, they get so much. But I guess it wont be bad moonz, as i have no infantry to really benefit from shooting twice, i got no lootas or tankbustas in the army. Then sure being evil sunz makes me faster so im almost guaranteed to reach the neutral objectives, visions make da boomer in to a destroyer of gods, but the rest of the 2 machines get no benefit at all.

Deathskullz makes them all great, but im not sure i need the obsec, because for infantry i only have room for boyz and some group of grots. the only infantry i otherwise have are my 3 HQ units, so i have to think about this, whether its still better. Since i basically dont get anything from obsec, i do get the 6++ though.


I wanted to use More dakka because there IS a modifier from his vexilla, that means i hit on 6's otherwise. and his units stand close enough that most things get that modifier. Last i used vision on a da boomer with more dakka i ended up with 16 actual hits, that was pretty amazing tho. Destroyed all his bikers barring 1 with half hp.

Oh well, thanks for your insight friend.

They don't really need to - marines just advance some bikes into firing position and gun them down, death guard either throws mortar shots at them or turns them in poxwalkers and eldar of any flavor use the anti-infantry guns on their transports. The only army which actually has to dedicate a valuable unit to killing them is daemons because they lack shooting.

Yeah, killing 5 ork dudes is so simple that I'd suggest taking the cheapest option if you have the models to choose. Stormboyz are fine in this regard.

If a shooty unit targets my 5 hidden cheap dudes instead of something more valubale, good for me. If they are ignored they score. Good either ways.

I play on tables which enable the 5 dudes to hide, so no bikes or harlequin transports (CW are impossible to lose against) can easily shoot them, how come you guys lose them to such units ? Don't you have LOS blocking terrain in table corners (and indeed you can't hold objectives with them this way, but that is not what we are susing them for is it ?) like I do -not every corner necesserely, sometimes just two out of four- ?

No, not by default, and I don't think there is a good reason to do so. It only makes some already decent secondary objectives even easier to score, warping the game towards them.

You rarely, if ever can shoot them from the opposite deployment zone or from the table center, but a unit moving 14" from the middle or their own deployment zone or a flyer jumping into obscuring terrain has no issues lining up shots when needed.

Stormboyz are used pretty much by a lot of the recent top tournament lists. So there is definitely something on them.

The question is how to use them? In my opinion, the key is to DS them in T3 when big part of the opponent army should be already down to let them bully his small units in “far” quaters of the board, gainening secondaries etc.

Put them on the table T1 makes them die exactly like you described.

The fact is, the more I play TTS the more games comes in last 2-3 turns in the stage, where there is one or two main battlefronts and a lot of space around. And this empty space generates VP via Engage, Scramblers, Linebreakers etc. + Objectives and who has more small FAST units that are able to bully another such units, those win. In later game, there is less units. All long range anti infantry or indirect fire could be already dead.

And my Kommandos stuck somewhere pretty often. Drop them do get the objective, gain some secondaries and than you need them somewhere else. But you can' t get them there... too slow.

This is the space and use, where such unit could be useful.

The question is - as usually - does it worth the points?

Kommandos vs storm boyz is mostly a choice between slot choice and personal taste (model availability). Storm boyz have the speed advantage at the cost of size (they are harder to hide) and armor save. Kommandos have the advantage when it comes to hunkering down in cover and are easier to hide but slower.

My lists always include lots of buggies, so I don't use the storm boyz as often, don't need the speed. So, I prefer taking the kommandos for extra survivability. If you are taking a slower, infantry heavy list, I can definitely see why you would take storm boyz.

Given the change of splinter cannon, do you think that they'll turn big shootas into overpriced heavy bolters?

They'll probably make them 2 damage and call it a day. AP-1 would be very appreciated, but I don't think they'll go that far.

Splinter cannons gained both AP-1 and damage2, I'm pretty hopeful Big Shootas get both as well.

Even if they turn into Heavy weapons, like splinter cannons did, it would be a gain as they're mostly mounted on vehicles.

Three out of the top four are Death Guard. Oof.

Hopefully, our codex brings us the same success!

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-over-the-top-gt/

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
Three out of the top four are Death Guard. Oof.

Hopefully, our codex brings us the same success!

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-over-the-top-gt/

Doubtful...

Deathguard were already decent and built for 9th. They just got stacked rules added.
Orks started 9th decent but it’s more to do with mass obj secured infantry. Other then reducing the cost of grots to 4ppm and boyz to 7ppm (which is doubtful to happen) or drastically improving Kff/painboy auras (also doubtful) I’m not exactly sure what they can do.. I wouldn’t mind the 4++ kff relic back..

Making big shootas better is nice and helpful but it won’t turn us into top tier. Even bringing back the super SAG and reducing the SAG cost and double shoot strat won’t be a big difference in 9th. And with the additions of abilities that removing objective secured from troops we are going to be taking a hit soon.

I’d like to see burna boys drastically improved with 12in flamers lower cost and dam 2 melee profiles.
I’d like to see freebooters price drop
I’d like to see both warbikers and nob bikers price drop and have assault 4 dakka guns (x2)
I’d like to see lootas just be a heavy 3 shots if unit has a spanner
I’d like to see grots benefit from clan rules, killakans go to movement 8, 4 base atk, and auto passes morale tests when unit contains 3 or more
I’d like to see deff dreads have 4 base atks
Fast moving and/or durable units are what’s winning 9th.

And drop like 200points off the stompa and just make the giggashoota never run out of ammo. Maybe add a plastic belly gun sprue to the old kit as that is a semi decent weapon upgrade.

A new plastic tankbusta/kommando kit with more options would be nice. Tankbusta bombs on kommandos and big choppas/powerklaw/rokkit hammer for the nob. They can actually do a lot here.... like the squig mine from the squig buggy could be a kommando option..

And make all Mek Boy related weapons hit on 4s, like they're doing with the forge world Mek Boy guys.

Gargantuan Squiggoth supa kannon should also hit on 4s, given that its crewed by grots, and Choppas should be a minus 1, Big choppas, minus 2, and then what ever they wanna do with Killsaws/powerklaw is probably gonna be like the powerfist/chainfist.

Nobz should have Obsec as well.

Secondaries related to orks, like make X charges for X points and more interesting over all stratagems that arent so darn situational.

Id also really like our psyker to be able to cast and deny on standard, 2 abilities. Most ork players dont bring more than one psyker so warphead just seem mandatory always. But i guess thats more of a personal wish than a must have when talking changes.

Jidmah plays DG, and I think he is the only regular here to play DG, so I wonder what he has to say on these impressive DG results.

New army around can get extremely good results just because it's the new stuff. It happened in 8th with the drukhari codex, when everybody, including Goonhammer guys, said they were absolute top tiers. They never were, simply people tailored their competitive lists against other factions and weren't prepared to face them. The same could be true for Deathguard, I can't say for sure since I don't have the chance to play at the moment.

Looking at their codex they don't seem superior to SM.

 Blackie wrote:
New army around can get extremely good results just because it's the new stuff. It happened in 8th with the drukhari codex, when everybody, including Goonhammer guys, said they were absolute top tiers. They never were, simply people tailored their competitive lists against other factions and weren't prepared to face them. The same could be true for Deathguard, I can't say for sure since I don't have the chance to play at the moment.

Looking at their codex they don't seem superior to SM.

Depends what SM flavour. But yes, I see what you mean. I think currently Harlequins successfully fill that "couter meta" role. DG and DA look like they are going to join the "main meta block" with the top SM flavours.

 addnid wrote:
Jidmah plays DG, and I think he is the only regular here to play DG, so I wonder what he has to say on these impressive DG results.

For those not in the know, this is what people are talking about:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-over-the-top-gt/

I guess it makes sense that those lists do well? The DG player placing fourth (the one without Mortarion) played something really close to what I played in my last game, and yes that defenitely feels powerful..
I didn't expect Mortarion to do as well as he did, but none of the top placing players used any of the contagions which were identified as "the best" by most DG strategists.

Essentially all of them optimized the overlap between the most powerful combos and did very well because of that. However, I also think that many people who have their target priority messed up vs DG because the DR completely changed what guns are good against which units, some to the total opposite.

So, as an ork player, things I see as really dangerous:
- Droning missile. Essentially suicidal drone that flies straight into your army and uses a stratagem to gain the droning contagion (halves movement) from their warlord and a psychic power to boost it to 9" in turn 1 and 12" in turn 2. If you allow it to charge, it can slow down your entire army and also put the -1T on them to improve the DG shooting, as a lot of it is S6/S4 so boyz going from T4 to T3 matters a lot.
- Be very vary of the Inexorable Plague fleet. They have stratagem which reduces charges by -2 for 1 CP, which essentially feths up anyone trying to charge from deep strike.
- Keep Mortarion busy by feeding him units, kill everything else before you kill him.
- Have a plan to handle 2+/4++/3W/T5 terminators, because you are going to see 13+ models in every single game. They are DG's best units, and they outfight almost everything orks have.
- DG win by staying alive, sitting on objectives and scoring their secondaries plus while we stand rewarding 5VP for every terminator unit you didn't kill. Kill the stuff you can kill, less units mean less VP for them. If you can wipe out a unit of plague marines or poxwalkers, kill those plague marines and poxwalkers instead of leaving 2 out 5 terminators alive.
- 2-3 plague mortars can kill small units of infantry anywhere on the table, no matter how well hidden they are.

Essentially DG force you to play their game, if you can break that choke-hold you win. To me as a DG player, the most dangerous things are guns with good AP and d6 or more damage, the more range the better. Anything that has to come within contagion/charge range to hurt me is no threat at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:
Depends what SM flavour. But yes, I see what you mean. I think currently Harlequins successfully fill that "couter meta" role. DG and DA look like they are going to join the "main meta block" with the top SM flavours.

I think DG will definitely kick harlequins out of the top tier. Playing against them feels like running over a clown with kitchen knife with a steam roller.

 Jidmah wrote:
[\
Essentially DG force you to play their game, if you can break that choke-hold you win. To me as a DG player, the most dangerous things are guns with good AP and d6 or more damage, the more range the better. Anything that has to come within contagion/charge range to hurt me is no threat at all.

Mek guns it is.

I wanted to play them for while we stand, we fight anyway

Edit: in that tourney, apparently 5th was also Death Guard, making them take 4/5 of the top 5. Woof.

Morty is definitely the terror people think he is.

I think morty will sadly get nerfed a bit but sadly he’s not why DG are so great. It’s really thier point efficient durability allowing them to hold objectives.

Like I said I don’t know what GW can do to our codex to make us better at point efficient durability unless it’s reduce grot/boy point cost and/or increase kff/painboy auras.

What I hope for is changes to warbikers, dreads etc to make them more point efficient as those are (along with mega nobs) our more durable units.

There really is no knowing what orks will get, so let's not start whining already.

At the very least we will get an army-wide rule like contagions or doctrines that will increase ork power across the board, improved relics, warlord traits, weapon profiles as well as an update for most units in our codex.

It's also fairly sure that the auto-take stuff we have right now might be taken down a notch - things that come to mind here are the deff skulls culture or smasha guns.

I would like Speed Freekz on Trukks, maybe even on open topped Battlewagons. If Deffkoptas ever get some love with new kits then perhaps a price drop on them would be kool.

I could see Evil Sunz vehicles only getting the extra movement part of the kultur over infantry as a nerf but let's hope not.

I miss getting little bonuses when taking certain units i.e.- 1 Nobz unit as troops when you have a Warboss or having that extra Deff Dread if you took a Big Mek. Warbike HQ's allowing warbikers to be troops etc. Again nice but not necessary.

As far as things I really want is the return of Looted Vehicles in Matched but that ain't gonna happen unless Iron Warriors start getting their Basilisks back...

Yeah no point complaining about our book until we see it. Honestly, based on what we've seen, we will be *very* happy with our new codex.

Will some of our current best stuff get a nerf? Maybe. That's fine, though, as long as we can build lots of cool fun builds. Who wants to run the exact same lists for another 3-4 years.

Lot of things im worried about for our next book but its so up in the air we cant possibly predict it, good or bad.
Theres a lot of trends GW has been following lately that they almost certainly will apply to orks...that kinda shouldnt apply to orks. Thats the core potential issue, and until we see the codex we cant possibly know.
Pre-emptively complaining is pretty silly.

tulun wrote:
Will some of our current best stuff get a nerf? Maybe. That's fine, though, as long as we can build lots of cool fun builds. Who wants to run the exact same lists for another 3-4 years.

What I was referring to is that pretty much all of the combos and over-the-curve stuff DG had either got hit with a nerf bat or were removed. In return, everything else was raised to a similar level, leaving DG as a whole much more powerful, despite the stars of 8th being much weaker than before.

There are like 3 or 4 overarching rules I'd like Orks to get in the new 'dex. Some of these are big improvements and might require them to adjust points, which is fine. I think they'd primarily enhance flavour and a more fun playstyle.

1, Dakkadakkadakka give extra hits and not hit rolls on unmodified 6's.
- Pretty decent power upgrade but way faster especially if you run a lot of biker hordes like me or maybe shoota boyz or whatever your army may look like. DDD feels pretty weak right now and this is such a simple fix.

2, All ork vehicles get ramshackle.
- Every single vehicle in the book (the mek gunz, the buggies, deffkoptas even the freakin' stompa gets it). It's a fun durability buff which does slow the game down a little bit but not enough worth mentioning IMO. Ork vehicles aren't mass produced on the line and this represents that. Has the added benefit of people might be forced to overkill your vehicles since even a single 6 could throw off their math.

3, Grots get their grot mobs rules.
- I mean come one, I LOVE grots, but even I only tried to make an all grot army once. It's not feasible so just give them a mini-kultur (wasting an entire detachment for better mek gunz also feels steep in cost). Maybe all they get is reroll 1's to hit, fine whatever. Just give them something.

4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.

Other quick hits:

- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit


The Stompa:
- Remove one of its brackets, we're already paying an insane premium for all those wounds. No need to double nerf that with an extra bracket.
- All of the guns are now assault (or count as assault)
- It has a base WS of 2+
- The Supa-gatler goes to damage 2
- Drop it to like 750 and see how that does.

PiñaColada wrote:
4, All orks improve their AP by 1 on the charge, an add-on to the 'ere we go rule.
- Tired of your choppas doing nothing? This'd change that in a hurry. It's an improvement most felt by the stuff that needs it, boyz and bikes and it feels super thematic IMO. At least then melee orks would be really scary as a first strike army and it'd create some interesting meta game thinking for your opponents about how to keep denying those greenskinz to start sprinting up on them.

Other quick hits:

- Make some of the other specialist mobs unit upgrades for points instead. Like you can make a skrapjet a "boomboy" for 10 points etc.
- The mek speshul gets +1 to hit and wound against infantry.
- Power stabbas go to AP-4
- Up the cost of power klaws (5,10 points?) and make them damage d6 instead
- Big shootas go to AP-1
- Supa shootas go to AP-2
- Make the burna d3 12" S5 AP1 D1
- Make the zzap gun auto-hit

Assuming Orks get the same treatment as DG/Space Marines (one can dream ), we can look forward to:
- Choppa getting AP-1, like plague knives and chainswords
- Big shootas getting 2D (heavy bolter/splinter rifle)
- Power stabbas +1S (power swords/daemon blades/baleswords)
- Burna/skorcha/killa jet - skorcha/burna exhaust to 12", no ap change
- Killa jet - melta to d6 damage+2 in half range
- PK to AP-3/2 damage
- Killsaw to d3 damage, 3 damage vs vehicles
- Most d3 weapons (snagga klaw, rokkit pistols, tellyporta blasta, etc) go to flat 2 damage. They curb d3 on weapons wherever possible, probably to speed up rolling.
- Some of the d6 weapons representing heavy hitting anti-tank might go to 3+d3. Klaw of mork/gork or the wazzbom mega cannons feel like good candidates for this, maybe also SAGs or traktor kannons. KMB or smashas definitely not.

Well, a lot of what you're saying makes sense from a 9th game design aspect point of view. Stuff going from d3 to flat 2 etc.

But I will say that I'm not really keen on too many ork weapons needing to be some sort of direct parity with the various flavours of astartes weapons. The problem of course is that almost all of the 9th codices have been some sort of power armour (I don't really know necrons' statlines at all) so those become the logical comparisons.

Take the power stabba, in 8th it was just a worse power sword, trading 1 AP for a point discount. Now in 9th it's straight up terrible of course, an AP-2 weapon that costs the same as an SM power sword with +1S AP-3? They'll fix it one way or another but I don't love the idea that it's simply going to be turned into a normal power sword. Just give it a unique statline, it's not a sword, it's a friggin' jackhammer bolted onto an arm for gork's sake.

One thing 9th codices have managed well (IMO) so far at least is giving the factions some of their fluff back onto the tabletop in terms of how rules work. All the whimsical and or frightening but low/weirdly high tech guns orks have shouldn't just be renamed heavy bolters and renamed power swords. I understand that it's quite likely that's what they're going to end up as anyways but there's no reason a power klaw can't be d6 damage. An ork warboss used to oneshot tanks with those back in the day, make them really strong and more expensive so orks can actually hit hard enough to be the glasshammers everyone else already think they are.