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I've largely managed to *not* have to deal with LashoSub these couple years. Now I will, as my *friendly* CSM list is going to have a Sorceror ... but I'm ignorant on how the joined unit's shooting is effected. Yeah, I have the Codex: CSM.

If he's joined a unit, how does the sequence go when, let's say an enemy unit is beyond the CSMs' bolter range or further than 12"?

Using the LashoS, the enemy unit is brought within the CSMs' bolter long-range or even within Rapid Fire range. Do the CSMs shoot (simultaneously?) at the target at their new location/range? Or are distances measured before LashoS is applied?

I just checked the CSM FAQ and RB FAQ for any bearing on this; none I found.

I do hope this isn't a necrotic equine to be unearthed and flogged vehemently. Like some judean convict attended by Alex DeLarge on his first day of Centurion duty.

Just a couple GameAsPlayed responses, si vous plait.

All firing is resolved simultaneously. This means (in essence) that all firing occurs the moment the unit becomes affected by Fzorgle. In practice then, you should resolve all normal shooting at the squad (from the unit containing the caster) before applying Fzorgle's effects. (Since the moment you would begin to move the models a fraction of an inch, all other firing should be resolved as well).

Declare which models are using what shooting attacks (including psychic shooting attacks in place of normal weapons), and then measure for range.

If they are not in range, they may not fire and do not roll to hit. RAW they are considered to have 'missed automatically' although they do not have to roll to hit. You must still pass a Psychic Test before measuring range, and can suffer a Perils result regardless.

The situation you're describing involves a 24" Lash trying to get an enemy unit within rapid-fire range for a unit that has either already moved or would simply prefer to get more shots in. Unfortunately, this won't work if the sorcerer is in the unit that wishes to take advantage of the shorter range.

The only thing that isn't clear is whether casualties should be removed before or after the unit is moved by the Chaos player, but it most circumstances it should make little difference.

De-tach the Sorc and use Lash. Then Fire the Unit of bolters.

Then take a lascannon to the face.

Which is one reason why some use Lash on a Daemon Prince platform .

Put sorcerer in a rhino instead? Or another melee unit?

I'll admit I've used lash before and shot afterward. Didn't help most people around here that I play with really don't know the rules that well.

Case in point: For a long time I thought ork boyz were int 3.

So, 3 outta 6 posts yield a "that attached unit's firing is resolved *before* the Lashed unit is moved."

Okey, dokey.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Declare which models are using what shooting attacks (including psychic shooting attacks in place of normal weapons), and then measure for range.

For the record, Fzorgle is not a psychic shooting attack. It is a psychic power used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon, so you can use it whenever you want, including before the attached unit fires.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deuce11 wrote:De-tach the Sorc and use Lash. Then Fire the Unit of bolters.

Or a vindicator!

MekanobSamael wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Declare which models are using what shooting attacks (including psychic shooting attacks in place of normal weapons), and then measure for range.

For the record, Fzorgle is not a psychic shooting attack. It is a psychic power used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon, so you can use it whenever you want, including before the attached unit fires.

Not sure that that's true. Since it's used in lieu of shooting, if the attached unit (say CSM w/ a Sorc) fires its weapons (and the Sorcerer does not use Lash simultaneously) then ergo it is sacrificing its shooting (as all shooting from the unit must be simultaneous). Once it does not shoot, the Sorcerer cannot use Lash, as Lash may only be used in lieu of firing a weapon, which is no longer an option for the Sorcerer.

Conversely, if the Sorcerer uses Lash instead of shooting, and the attached unit does not fire, they have sacrificed their turn to shoot and may not do so, unless they resolve simultaneously with the Sorcerer.

In short, things that act "in lieu of shooting" must happen when shooting happens, otherwise you're not using the ability "instead of shooting."

Xca|iber wrote:Not sure that that's true.

It's what Gwar! says. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318873.page

Xca|iber wrote:Conversely, if the Sorcerer uses Lash instead of shooting, and the attached unit does not fire, they have sacrificed their turn to shoot and may not do so, unless they resolve simultaneously with the Sorcerer.

Why? Does the BRB say somewhere that all the not-shooting in one unit has to be done at the same time as the shooting?

MekanobSamael wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deuce11 wrote:De-tach the Sorc and use Lash. Then Fire the Unit of bolters.

Or a vindicator!

That is a damn nasty combo, though using a defiler is more reliable since it's cannons range is much longer. Then again last forward and use winds of chaos on a specifically troubling unit and watch it melt.

My favorite trick is to use a dp of T with warptime and winds of chaos and a single sorc with lash. Toss in a few other templates and you can solve problems fast.

MekanobSamael wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Not sure that that's true.

It's what Gwar! says. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318873.page

Xca|iber wrote:Conversely, if the Sorcerer uses Lash instead of shooting, and the attached unit does not fire, they have sacrificed their turn to shoot and may not do so, unless they resolve simultaneously with the Sorcerer.

Why? Does the BRB say somewhere that all the not-shooting in one unit has to be done at the same time as the shooting?

Well, my thought was the following:

Lets say that a model can peform "Take Action = Shooting." The BRB states that all models in unit must perform "Take Action = Shooting" at the same time. One model has the ability to perform "Take Action = X," with the caveat that it must be used instead (this word is used specifically) of "Take Action = Shooting." Instead means "In the stead of," which means "in place of". Therefore, if the model wishes to peform "Take Action = X," it must be done in place of "Take Action = Shooting," and since all "Take Action = Shooting" happens at the same time, "Take Action = X" must happen at the same time as the rest of the shooting.

As for Gwar!, the thread you linked to only specifies that a non-PSA may be used in the shooting phase, and then the unit may fire as normal. Lash is a PSA (ergo the other part of Gwar!'s answer which stated that Lash must target the same unit as the attached unit's firing).

De-tach the Sorc and use Lash. Then Fire the Unit of bolters. ... Or a vindicator! ...

That is a damn nasty combo, though using a defiler is more reliable since it's cannons range is much longer. Then again last forward and use winds of chaos on a specifically troubling unit and watch it melt.

Yep. I have the Vin (newly grown spikey accroutrements) and a WarpTime DP. Hmm.

With 4 Oblits, 2 PM units, a CSM and Khorne crew, is this still friendly?

Lash IS a PSA, as it is used in lieu of shooting another ranged weapon. Thus it MUST be simultaneous with another unit.

Wow, Gwar! Just...wow...

MekanobSamael wrote:For the record, Fzorgle is not a psychic shooting attack. It is a psychic power used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon, so you can use it whenever you want, including before the attached unit fires.

When challenged

MekanobSamael wrote:It's what Gwar! says. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318873.page

What Gwar! actually said in the thread you linked:

Gwar! wrote:No because Lash is a PSA done instead of shooting.

Wow, MekanobSamael! Just...wow....

Dis Thread confusing. Whats the argument here?

1. Spell my name right.

2. Read the edit time of Gwar!'s post, there.

Pay attention to your own sources, Mekanob. Gwar addressed your question regarding targetting a seperate unit. It is still a part of that unit's shooting. It is still resolved simultaneously.

MekanobSamael wrote:1. Spell my name right.

2. Read the edit time of Gwar!'s post, there.

1. I did.

2. Gwar! - what did it say?

Scott-S6 wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:1. Spell my name right.

2. Read the edit time of Gwar!'s post, there.

1. I did.

2. Gwar! - what did it say?

It said the exact same thing, except the word Psychic was spelled wrong. I noticed, so I edited it to fix it.

MekanobSamael wrote:1. Spell my name right.

2. Read the edit time of Gwar!'s post, there.

1) Umm... I don't see what he screwed up.

2) Wow, maybe we should restrict how old a post can be and still be edited. But, even if what you're saying is correct, we've all gotten a rule screwed up at some point, why call someone out like that?

Xca|iber wrote:Lets say that a model can peform "Take Action = Shooting." The BRB states that all models in unit must perform "Take Action = Shooting" at the same time. One model has the ability to perform "Take Action = X," with the caveat that it must be used instead (this word is used specifically) of "Take Action = Shooting." Instead means "In the stead of," which means "in place of". Therefore, if the model wishes to peform "Take Action = X," it must be done in place of "Take Action = Shooting," and since all "Take Action = Shooting" happens at the same time, "Take Action = X" must happen at the same time as the rest of the shooting.

Makes sense, but still something of a stretch.

Regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that fzorgle is a Psychic shooting attack, since, despite many similarities with other psychic shooting attacks, it is not referred to as such.

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:1. Spell my name right.

2. Read the edit time of Gwar!'s post, there.

1. I did.

2. Gwar! - what did it say?

It said the exact same thing, except the word Psychic was spelled wrong. I noticed, so I edited it to fix it.

Hmmmm.....

MekanobSamael - I'm afraid that this is one of those "screenshot or it never happened" moments.

Grakmar wrote:2) Wow, maybe we should restrict how old a post can be and still be edited. But, even if what you're saying is correct, we've all gotten a rule screwed up at some point, why call someone out like that?

Just a little disappointed that five minutes after I cite someone generally credited as having reasonable knowledge of the rules, he changes the verdict on an issue he had basically decided a month ago.

It seems the spelling was changed, not the verdict. . . .

None of you has yet come up with a satisfactory argument that LoS is a PSA, despite no textual evidence that it is.

MekanobSamael wrote:Regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that fzorgle is a Psychic shooting attack, since, despite many similarities with other psychic shooting attacks, it is not referred to as such.

None of the pre-5th edition powers are. Are you asserting that none of the powers in any of the pre-5th ed codexes are psychic shooting attacks?

Scott-S6 wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:Regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that fzorgle is a Psychic shooting attack, since, despite many similarities with other psychic shooting attacks, it is not referred to as such.

None of the pre-5th edition powers are. Are you asserting that none of the powers in any of the pre-5th ed codexes are psychic shooting attacks?

Are you asserting that they need to be in order to function? I believe they are (well, most of them) pretty clear as to how they work without further categorization.