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So, the appropriate RAW quotes:

Page 60, Codex: Dark Elfdars wrote:Once per game... [blah blah blah] ...Every psyker within <Censored by Ordo Attackus Pandoris> of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

Page 29, Codex: Blud Angles wrote:Psyker: A Furioso Librarian is a psyker and... [blah blah blah] ... and counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes...

Click da Button for the options!


As for what the actually RaW is, I have my own opinion but I will not mention it just yet.

As far as I can tell from the relevant quotes provided, the Librarian is a Psyker and therefore subject to all thing related to Psykers. Therefore, since the Crucible affects all Psykers (including the Librarian), the Librarian must take a Ld test.

Since the Librarian does not normally have a Ld value, this would normally do nothing. However, since it counts as having Ld 10 for all psychic purposes (a very vague term), it must test and possibly be removed.

Since the test specifically targets Psykers, I would consider this to be a psychic purpose and make the Librarian test.

It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Perhaps it should have been written that way, but that would be RAI not RAW, right?

Claypool wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Perhaps it should have been written that way, but that would be RAI not RAW, right?

In fantasy when they moved to 8th they managed to make up-dates to all the codices. They even wrote a little rule the magic could only hurt warmachines if it had a strength value....

...we don't get the same quality in 40k. We get things like deploy your models (no mention about how), must move on from the board edge (what if you can't), and lets not get into the mess that is weapons (more then 3, nids, special attacks)

I have to go with choice B.

While it might be a dreadnought, it is still counted as a psyker and gives rules for using a LD value of 10 for "psychic purposes." There is a precendent for using that LD 10 for non "psychic purposes" that are related to psychic abilities, namely with a psychic hood. There is no mention of making a psychic test yet you can still use that LD 10 to nullify a psychic power, while fluffwise we all know they're using their psychic abilities in conjunction with the hood, we all know that fluff does not equal RAW.

Since it still has the psyker rule, and has a LD 10 for psychic purposes/ psychic related purposes, I would think it still has to make that test.

I tend to (not by RAW) look at "psychic purposes" as any time when the Dreadnought is called upon as a Psyker.

It is in this case, ergo, I would play it as a Ld10 test or be removed.

RAW, assuming that you follow an interpretation of "psychic purposes" that is more restrictive and does not include this instance, the Dreadnought is instantly removed, as it must "pass or be removed." If it cannot take the test, it cannot pass, and therefore removing it is the only way the game may continue. Otherwise, the game breaks.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Option C - The Dread is removed from play as it can't take the LD test, Ergo didn't pass one

Clever, Clever. Ah, but you can't claim it didn't pass, because it didn't take one in the first place, so it cannot have not passed because there was nothing to not pass in the first place!

Did it pass a Ld test. Y/N?

Done dusted thanks to the wording, it doesn't mention failing a Ld test as being the trigger to removal, just 'must pass a Ld test or be removed from'. Didn't take one didn't pass one, bai bai. (I'm going to pretend that it's a waving ork ^_^

Yeah, but if it doesn't take one, it can't not pass it!!

"Must pass a LD test or be removed" did it pass one? it's the wording it's not if it fails it, it's just if it doesn't pass one, something happily satisfied but not even taking one, no passing going on there

Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

The thing is, see. They didn't say "psychic test" or "perils of the warp".

They say "psychic purposes".

I would imagine it would apply to Runes of Warding and a Psychic Hood, for example. In fact I would insist.

If it is applying to Runes and the Psychic Hood, and whatever weirdness Grey Knights/ Sisters can do I don't see why it would not apply the doll thingie too.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

But it's not, 'not passing a Ld' it simply did pass one, poof gone, if one doesn't take one then passing one is not an option, so Dread goes away.
Again the Crucible doesn't care about pass/fail it just cares if you pass one, not taking one=not passing one!~
Beeeeliiiiivvvvveee meeee! (When you have the chance to see it in the print)

It's got to be chocolate...... What? Oh yeah, pudding aside.

I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

I'll be the first to admit that "Psychic Purposes" is very vague, but I don't think it extends to the Crucible. It seems more like to deal with(more commonly) Hoods, Psychic Tests, (and less commonly) Hypnotic Gaze, and Mindwar*.

*Yes, I know you can't inflict wounds on the libby dread and you probably can't even target a walker, but it would count as Ld10 if you could.

Gwar! wrote:

Tri wrote:It does not have a LD value. "Psychic purposes" is a giant C*** up and should have just been "making a psychic test"

I agree with you here 110%. As I already pointed out in my own FAQ, Psychic Purposes means absolutely jack gak.

If it means nothing, then how does the Dreadnaught use psychic powers? The rule does not instruct us to use the Ld 10 for making psychic tests specifically, only that the model counts as Ld 10 for "all psychic purposes." If that means "jack gak," as you eloquently stated, then the Dreadnaught cannot use psychic powers at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but the fact that it doesn't take one in the first place means it can't not pass it, since it doesn't apply to it whatsoever.

OMG MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!

It doesn't matter whether or not it "can't not pass," to use your wording. The Crucible specifies that the psyker must "pass a Leadership test or be removed." There is no requirement to fail the test in order to be removed, merely a requirement to pass the test in order to stay on the board. To continue on this vein, if the rule stated, "if the Librarian fails the test, then it is removed from play," then you would have a legitimate position. In this case, if the Librarian cannot take the test, then he cannot fail it, and would be immune from the effect. Unfortunately, that is not how the Crucible's rule is written. The Crucible's rule is a simple pass or go home. To simplify, not taking the test is the same as not passing the test.

To use an analogy, have you passed a calculus test if you never took it? Of course not; you have neither passed nor failed. If your college requires you to pass that calculus test today or be expelled from school, it doesn't matter if there is something that prevents you from taking that test today. Failure to pass equals removal from school; not taking it equals not passing it. Here's another analogy; if you fail to take your test for your driver's license, you have obviously not passed the exam. Therefore, if you drive without a license and get pulled over by a cop, you cannot possibly expect to get off from punishment by stating, "well, officer, I didn't take the test, so I didn't not pass it."

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

Finally, I'll hit the issue from a game balance position. It is absurd to think that we should allow the Librarian Dreadnaught all of the advantages of having psychic abilities, but protecting it from all of the liabilities.

Oh, and by the way, I voted for option B.

Saldiven wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

Because the Ld test does not cause and does not relate to anything psychic.

Saldiven wrote:If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

*Resists urge to ask for fluff reasons behind metal boxes on wheels saving psykers from Shadow in the Warp*

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I don't believe that it is Option B since the Ld test really is not a psychic purpose. It's just an Ld test that only psykers happen to need to take.

And how is that not a "psychic purpose?" Are we going to arbitrarily start listing things that some people, merely by opinion, qualify as a "psychic purpose?" Why would something like a psychic hood or hypnotic gaze count, and the Crucible not? Merely because the Crucible has the chance to remove the Dreadnaught?

Because the Ld test does not cause and does not relate to anything psychic.

Saldiven wrote:If we absolutely must look at it from a fluff perspective, consider this. The Dreadnaught is not a machine; it is piloted by an encapsulated Librarian. The Crucible has the potential to kill the Librarian piloting the Dreadnaught, thereby rendering it ineffectual.

*Resists urge to ask for fluff reasons behind metal boxes on wheels saving psykers from Shadow in the Warp*

So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose? Frankly, I think your reasoning is about as flawed as it could be, and for that interpretation to work, would require a point by point analysis of everything remotely related to psychers to determine which things apply and which things don't apply to the Librarian Dreadnaught. The simpler and more reasonable approach is to have everything that is solely related to psychers to count as a "psychic purpose."

As for your second note, I agree with you. It's a silly interpretation, but not germane to this conversation.

My guess is that since it adversely affects a space marine player, that GW will FAQ for it to not work on embarked units in vehicles, or on Dreadnoughts.

Why is there no option D???

I would vote pudding. The game breaks and a roll-off must ensue to restore order to the game.

Really, you can't make a Ld test without a value, but you're being forced to make one. The game breaks, wahoo

If had to choose one, I'm more inclined to option A, that is, that it can't make a leadership test and so its fine.

Saldiven wrote:So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose?

Yes because the Ld test does not do pertain to anything psychic to anything psychic except that a psyker is doing it.

Too bad this isn't WHFB rules; no characteristic value=automatic fail.

Galianis wrote:Too bad this isn't WHFB rules; no characteristic value=automatic fail.

Too bad this is WHFB, magic without a strength value cannot hurt warmachines

I think you take the psychic test. Not a huge deal. Obviously the Libby has leadership 10 in it's rules when taking tests. Honestly if someone was crying so much about taking a test that they have a 92% chance of passing they need to ctfo.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

Saldiven wrote:So, a test that only psychic models have to take is some how not a psychic purpose?

Yes because the Ld test does not do pertain to anything psychic to anything psychic except that a psyker is doing it.

The lead test is one that must be taken only by psykers, who, by definition, are psychic. Ipso facto, the Ld test is taken for psychic purposes. If it were a Ld test that were required of any and all characters, not merely psykers, I would agree that the Librarian Dreadnaught would not have to take that test.

The rule does not specify that the Ld value is only for psychic tests. I don't see why we should limit "psychic purposes" to "psychic tests" where no such limitation is expressed in the rules.

To further clarify, in my opinion, any test that a model is required to take solely because that model qualifies as a psyker would qualify as a "psychic purpose."

Yep, I knew there was a reason I've stayed out of YMDC for nearly a year....Common sense people. Option B.

If you press the RAW argument, then the Libby Dread is removed since it doesn't have a standard Ld stat. It doesn't matter if it can test or not, the rules for the CoM are quite clear, pass or remove.

Option B actually makes the situation fair for both sides involved. Anything else is just stupidity.

Rymafyr wrote:Yep, I knew there was a reason I've stayed out of YMDC for nearly a year....Common sense people. Option B.

If you press the RAW argument, then the Libby Dread is removed since it doesn't have a standard Ld stat. It doesn't matter if it can test or not, the rules for the CoM are quite clear, pass or remove.

Option B actually makes the situation fair for both sides involved. Anything else is just stupidity.

Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree here. I do agree with your final conclusion, but this is not a case of "RAW being silly". This is a case of "RAW is unclear" and "RAI can logically be argued either way".

The Libby Dread is obviously meant to be able to use it's own psychic powers using Ld10. But, is that Ld10 really supposed to make it vulnerable to leadership tests from enemy's psychic powers? Either way you argue it, it doesn't quite make sense.

I mean, can I Mind War a Libby Dread? If so, it suffers wounds, but doesn't have any. Does this mean it has no wounds remaining and auto-dies? Or, does it mean it is vulnerable to Mind War, but immune to the results?

Grakmar wrote:
I mean, can I Mind War a Libby Dread? If so, it suffers wounds, but doesn't have any. Does this mean it has no wounds remaining and auto-dies? Or, does it mean it is vulnerable to Mind War, but immune to the results?

If I were writing the rules (which I'm not), I would say each "wound" caused by Mindwar results in a glancing hit on the Librarian Dread. This would be consistent with Perils of the Warp causing a glancing hit, assuming I remember correctly how that rule reads.

Okay then turn it around, if you don't count the LD score for psykic things other than just rolling the psykic test, then the Libby dread will suck hard at hood checks. Not having a LD score he would just roll a D6, almost assuring a fail whenever an opponent tries to hood his powers and never himself being able to hood an opponent's powers.

The fact is that this is an ill-defined term. In terms of mind war the RAW seems to indicate that although he can be hit by it, the wounds do nothing to him.

The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

I voted B.