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I agree with Gwar, Psychic purpose is not defined anywhere.

So its up to the players to define what this means?

That is garbage GW, and you know it!

I would say since Psychic purposes is not in its own sentence, and it is contained within the same sentence referencing his psychic powers, that the dread only uses LD 10 for his own psychic purposes, and can not be called upon to take LD tests from an outside source.

Ramses...you mean CoM right? Crucible of Malediction. Cause I really don't know where you're getting CoB from. Then again, you are wrong on your other points so par for the course I guess.

Has anyone considered that maybe GW left 'psychic purposes' intentionally vague? Maybe they wanted it broad so that it would cover weapons and wargear affecting psykers that they hadn't written the rules for yet. You know, like things in subsequent codeces.

Like the DE codex, for instance, which was written concurrently with the BA codex. Any wargear affecting psykers in there?

Just curious.

Okay, curious and jocularly sarcastic.

Cauldron of blood possibly....

B is too close to M on my phone when typing fast.

Keep it polite Warnings have been issued.

Gwar! wrote:So, the appropriate RAW quotes:

Page 60, Codex: Dark Elfdars wrote:Once per game... [blah blah blah] ...Every psyker within <Censored by Ordo Attackus Pandoris> of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.

I personally think it SHOULD test like any other psyker,

Or if it fails the test, due to going Stark Raving Mad, give it the annoying Chaos Dreadnought rule table, where the giant robot is DESIGNED to be insane and raving mad.

Lets see how the loyalists like their War machines killing their own men

its dumb, GW just forgot line as Changeling have .. blahblah vehicles count as having LD10
ps. this already after 1st page looks like another GWAR and his friends flickerfields thread...

Just because a psyker takes a ld test doesnt make it a psychic test.

Dread has no ld value, cant test, no effect.

However as has been noted the Libby Dread does have an LD10 for 'psychic purposes'. Just because you have 7500 pts of BA Stuntie doesn't make you right. Biased. Not right.

No how much of an army i have doesnt necessarily make me correct.

However a proper reading of the rules does.

A psyker taking a ld test is not taking a psychic test.

Just because a psychic test is a ld test doesn't mean all ld tests taken by a psyker are psychic tests.

Therefor "psychic purposes" never even enters into the equation, if it said all psykers within blah range have to take a "PSYCHIC TEST" then yes he would have tot est on his ld10 used for psychic purposes.

I would say a test that targets only psykers would fall under psychic purposes.
Psykers have to take the test. BA dread is a psyker. Therefore it takes the test against the value it is given for the purposes of being a psyker.

Where is my pudding ?
This is all GWs fault. "Psychic purposes"? Could you be anymore vague ? For what it is worth I voted "B".

kill dem stunties wrote:No how much of an army i have doesnt necessarily make me correct.

However a proper reading of the rules does.

A psyker taking a ld test is not taking a psychic test.

Just because a psychic test is a ld test doesn't mean all ld tests taken by a psyker are psychic tests.

Therefor "psychic purposes" never even enters into the equation, if it said all psykers within blah range have to take a "PSYCHIC TEST" then yes he would have tot est on his ld10 used for psychic purposes.

You keep bringing up the whole "psychic test," but the Librarian Dread doesn't have permission to take "psychic tests." In fact, "psychic test" doesn't appear in the rule. The rule states the dread has "Ld 10 for all psychic purposes."

If "psychic purposes" doesn't enter the equation (to use your words), then how, exactly, does the Librarian Dread make use of his psychic powers, which require a specific kind of test that the dreadnaught is not specifically given permission to take?

To continue this discussion, you need to abandon the "psychic test" conversation, because that's not what the Dread is given permission to take. The rule is much more broad than that.

Either you have to accept the broad interpretation of what "psychic purposes" consist of, or the Dread has no permission to use any of his powers or his psychic hood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:I would say a test that targets only psykers would fall under psychic purposes.
Psykers have to take the test. BA dread is a psyker. Therefore it takes the test against the value it is given for the purposes of being a psyker.

This is actually my position as well. To restate, any test that a model has to take specifically and only because that model qualifies as a psyker constitutes a "psychic purpose."

In other words, morale tests do not qualify as a "psychic purpose," but using a force weapon or psychic hood would qualify as a "psychic purpose."

The questions should simply be: Does this model have to take this Leadership test because it qualifies as a psycher? Simple, easy, and elegant, and it completely addresses a gray area in the rules with the least amount of manipulation and convolution.

kill dem stunties wrote:Just because a psyker takes a ld test doesnt make it a psychic test.

Dread has no ld value, cant test, no effect.

I'm sorry, the CoM say that you must pass one (Ld check) or be removed from play, did you pass one? No? Oh damn, bye! ^_^

Sorry but no. You can keep repeating the same incorrect things but you're still wrong.

@saldiven , thats ridiculous, a ld check forced by wargear is not a psychic purpose, casting a psychic power is, case closed on that one.

@chriscp that nonsense has been struck down twice already this topic? or once i cant recall either way fallacious logic.

Well votes are nearly 3:1 against you stunties. It seems common sense wins out over legalistic rules manipulation.

@ Stunties: You admit that one psychic purpose is taking a psychic test. Is there anything else? If there isn't, why didn't the drafters of the Libby Dread rule just say "...for the purposes of taking a psychic test"?

kill dem stunties wrote:
@chriscp that nonsense has been struck down twice already this topic? or once i cant recall either way fallacious logic.

There is nothing fallacious about it, it's is in fact how it's played as written. As we can not say that a Leadership test is a psycic purpose.
Your belief that not taking a LD test constitutes passing one is the false premise.

ChrisCP wrote:[Your belief that not taking a LD test constitutes passing one is the false premise.

It's also false to say you fail it if you lack the stat. The only mention of auto-fail in the BRB is for stats ranked 0. There's nothing about what happens if you ask for a test a model doesn't have a stat for, or if you even can ask for it.

Personally I'd play the "psychic purpose" as anything required for being a psyker or using psyker gear, keeps things nice and simple. Option B.

It doesn't ask for failure, it says 'must pass a Ld test or be removed from play' did you pass a LD test y/n. I personally a LD check is not a psycic purpose no matter how one twists it, what next if a gun caused pinning the BA dread uses it's 'LD 10 for psycic purposes' against anything that calls for the LD value? Please

ChrisCP wrote: what next if a gun caused pinning the BA dread uses it's 'LD 10 for psycic purposes' against anything that calls for the LD value? Please

Vehicles don't take Pinning tests...

I didn't say take a pinning test =_= it could be forced to be pinned however as there is no cavtet that says 'vehicles can not be pinned' (there is one that says "Obviously, vehicles cannot go to ground, voluntarily or otherwise.") if said gun read "a unit hit by this weapon must pass a toughness check or be pinned" or anything else that tests a stat that a vehicle doesn't have, while checking for a pass.

Weapon Type Pinning, BRB pg 31.

Again, I never said it was a 'pinning weapon' - if your having issues with the example - how about 'must pass a toughness test or fallback'. The point is CoM asks for a model to pass a test not taking a test is not passing it, so the effect take place.

ChrisCP wrote:The point is CoM asks for a model to pass a test not taking a test is not passing it, so the effect take place.

No? Automatic failure is actually in the BRB, on page 8. It applies to models that have a stat at 0. There's nothing about what happens if you don't have the stat asked for in the first place. A sensible game system would tell us what happens if a power requires a roll on a stat you lack entirely - or the power asking for it would say how to resolve it against a target that lacks it. WH40K doesn't.

And please note I do vote B for this particular idiocy - the libby dread should use the "psychic purposes" LD 10 as it's a Psyker.

"....roll a D6. To succeed, you must score equal to or lower than the value of the characteristic involved. Note that if a 6 is rolled, then the model automatically fails the test regardless of the characteristic’s value...." I don't see how that's relevent?

Don't see how that applies to the fact that CoM asks for a test to be passed and you are told what happens if you don't pass that test... not taking a test is not passing it no?

Also how does one come to the conclusion that take a Ld check is a 'Psycic purpose'?

kill dem stunties wrote:@saldiven , thats ridiculous, a ld check forced by wargear is not a psychic purpose, casting a psychic power is, case closed on that one.

Really? Where is that defined?

Oh, it's not defined anywhere. You're making that up, and asserting it as fact.

My position is one of accepting that the rules are absolutely vacant in this situation and doing the best to find a reasonable, workable solution. I notice that your position still hasn't addressed the fact that the Dread has a psychic hood. But, based on your previous posts, you'll merely assert that using those is a "psychic purpose," too.

I seem to notice a distressing tendency in your interpretations that give the all the benefits to your preferred army, and none of the liabilities.


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Spetulhu wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:The point is CoM asks for a model to pass a test not taking a test is not passing it, so the effect take place.

No? Automatic failure is actually in the BRB, on page 8. It applies to models that have a stat at 0. There's nothing about what happens if you don't have the stat asked for in the first place. A sensible game system would tell us what happens if a power requires a roll on a stat you lack entirely - or the power asking for it would say how to resolve it against a target that lacks it. WH40K doesn't.

And please note I do vote B for this particular idiocy - the libby dread should use the "psychic purposes" LD 10 as it's a Psyker.

I voted B, as well, though I understand the argument made by ChrisCP. "Automatic failure" doesn't come into play in this situation, as "failure" isn't what triggers the effect of the wargear item. The CoM requires passage of the test to avoid the consequences, not failure of the test to suffer the consequences.

If the rules require failure in order to suffer consequences, then a model's not being able to take the test in the first place would protect the model from those consequences.

If the rules require passage in order to avoid consequences, then a model's not being able to take the test makes it impossible for them to avoid the consequences.

Regardless, in this situation, my interpretations matches yours, Spet; psyker takes Ld test, regardless of whether or not that psyker happens to also be a vehicle.

Spetulhu wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:The point is CoM asks for a model to pass a test not taking a test is not passing it, so the effect take place.

No? Automatic failure is actually in the BRB, on page 8. It applies to models that have a stat at 0. There's nothing about what happens if you don't have the stat asked for in the first place. A sensible game system would tell us what happens if a power requires a roll on a stat you lack entirely - or the power asking for it would say how to resolve it against a target that lacks it. WH40K doesn't.

And please note I do vote B for this particular idiocy - the libby dread should use the "psychic purposes" LD 10 as it's a Psyker.

You wanna check BRB??
ok..
CoM - DE dex p60
Every psyker within 3d6 of the bearer must pass a LD test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad.

Lib dread - BA dex p29
Furioso Librarian also has:
Psyker: A Furioso Librarian is a psyker and ... blahblah. He can use one power each turn, and counts as being LD10 for all psychic purposes.

BRB p8
Characteristic tests
In order to take a test, roll a d6. To succeed, you must score equal or lower than the value of the characteristic involved. Note that if 6 is rolled, then the model automatically fails the test regardless of the characteristic's value or any other modifier that might apply, and conversely a 1 is always a success.

Of course, if a model has to take a test for one of its characteristics with a value of 0, it automatically fails.

Leadership tests
... In the case of LD test, roll 2d6... If the result equal to or less then the model's LD, the test is passed.

Psykers p50
To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal LD test.

ok.. now lets begin:
CoM states that you must PASS a test or be removed... show line in BRB that states - no test made\possible = auto passing test, otherwise as CoM rule says - remove your Psyker away.
Next ..
Show us line from BRB that have definition of Psychic Purposes. - you can't? sorry then you can't use psychic powers with dread..

Take the damned test. Pass it. If you fail, use Corbulo to re-roll. Then squash that damned arrogant little space pansy with a Blood Fist.

If I get to use my "psychic purposes Ld10" to test for my psy powers and the hood I should have to use that same stat when something effects all psykers. Wasn't there another argument recently about Walkers and Ld tests? This time at least the effect requiring the use of Ld stat fits the purpose of the Furioso Librarian having a stat that no other vehicle has.