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does the dread have a ws skill?? is it fearless?
It reminds of the old Talos.. it had a - were the leader ship was( so it was crazied but you could still mind war it. which they gave it a leadership of 10 for just that ... so I would figure if it has a ws/ bs its going to have a leadership value too... name one other vechicle that has a armour value and leadership?

All dreads have a WS...

No its not fearless... but they never take moral checks for any reason so it would be pointless if it did.

I'm not sure what the point of those questions was.

Dracos wrote:All dreads have a WS...

No its not fearless... but they never take moral checks for any reason so it would be pointless if it did.

I'm not sure what the point of those questions was.

Rhetorical I believe...

It's just counter as a walker, it does not have a leadership as the special rules say "Treat it as Ld10 for the process of making Psychic Hood and Psychic Abilitys".

grayspark wrote:It's just counter as a walker, it does not have a leadership as the special rules say "Treat it as Ld10 for the process of making Psychic Hood and Psychic Abilitys".

No, that is not what the Librarian Dreadnaught's rule states.

The rule states that it is counted as Ld 10 for "all Psychic purposes." It makes no limitation to psychic hoods or psychic abilities. Please, if you're going to quote a rule, try to quote it accurately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dracos wrote:
The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

This is exactly my position, as well. Why artificially place limitations on rules that are not written within the rules, especially when the broad interpretation works perfectly well and requires the least amount of interpretation?

Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

If you are going to go by absolute, pure, fundamental RAW, then it's option C. I think that a measure of common sense needs to be applied though. I also think that they shouldn't get a free pass just because they are in a metal bawks (there is enough of that in the game as it is). They have the benefits of being a psyker and should be subject to the drawbacks of being a psyker. All of that in consideration, I think the ultimate best choice is B. One thing to keep in mind however is that opens up all of the other effects that they could be subjected to. These have been argued elsewhere, but over the same "for all psychic purposes" line. I don't think that is a bad thing for reasons I have already stated, but it is something that should not be neglected. This is all just my opinion of course, and I really think you could go by any of the three options and not be dead wrong.

I voted B as it seems straight forward from a "I read the words and that makes sense" perspective. RAW it is funky as hell.

Do you guys have an opinion on the Torment Grenade launcher affecting the Lib dreads "ld score" in combination with CoM? I would say no since that has nothing to do with the narrow band of Psychic purposes. But if you have to allow one thing... then you might have to allow the other.

Dok wrote:I voted B as it seems straight forward from a "I read the words and that makes sense" perspective. RAW it is funky as hell.

Do you guys have an opinion on the Torment Grenade launcher affecting the Lib dreads "ld score" in combination with CoM? I would say no since that has nothing to do with the narrow band of Psychic purposes. But if you have to allow one thing... then you might have to allow the other.

Well, not really. For things like that and the Orbs that wound vs Ld, they don't work against vehicles. Period. End. Fin. STOP!

The only reason it is unclear with the CoM is because it specifically affects Psykers and the Libby Dread has that stupid "psychic purposes" rule.

ha ha, word. My group came to the same conclusion on that. I was just wondering if anyone had some wacky rules clause where if one works then the other should, etc., etc.

Gwar, could you please fix the poll? I can't seem to vote pudding.

On a more serious note, I voted A. Psychic purposes is a broad and silly term, but it seems to cover tests like this.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Gwar, could you please fix the poll? I can't seem to vote pudding.

On a more serious note, I voted A. Psychic purposes is a broad and silly term, but it seems to cover tests like this.

So did you then vote for B, as B is the option saying that the Dread has to take the test.

I'll go with "Option C: Other"
It has no Ld so it counts as 0 which means.. it'll fail and gets removed.

Brother Ramses wrote:Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

This entire post ignores the fact that the Librarian Dread is given permission to take Leadership tests for "psychic purposes" and given a Ld value to use for those tests.

My assertion is that any test a model must take specifically because that model qualifies as a "psyker" qualifies as a "psychic purpose." I believe this interpretation is the simplest and most elegant interpretation and requires the least fiddling with the rules and creation of caveats and qualifications.

The problem is that "psychic purposes" is an undefined game term. If we do not take a broad view of what constitutes a "psychic purpose," we are then left with the requirement to go through every instance where a psyker might have to take a test and determine whether or not that test qualifies as a "psychic purpose." This is needlessly cumbersome when taking the broad interpretation gives a simple, reasonable, and playable solution.

And that is what is most important having a fair and playable solution. I also think the poll shows pretty well how everyone thinks by more than a 2:1 margin for Option B as opposed to A+C combined.

Option C: It turns into a death-company dreadnought.

I dont think that any test would be taken, as its a vehicle, so it cant have leadership. But there is merit to both schools of thought here.

Thunder555 wrote:It has no Ld so it counts as 0 which means.. it'll fail and gets removed.

There's no such rule. You have to have an actual 0 there on your stat line to fail automatically.

It's a mess but then we're used to it.

I would have to go with c: other from what youve listed from the codex ....

The dread has a ld value for "psychic purposes", thats great.

The rule makes all psykers take a LD test, not a psychic test.

Dread has no ld, a ld test isnt a psychic purpose, so you dont use the 10.

He has no LD, thus cant take a LD test, no effect.

kill dem stunties wrote:I would have to go with c: other from what youve listed from the codex ....

The dread has a ld value for "psychic purposes", thats great.

The rule makes all psykers take a LD test, not a psychic test.

Dread has no ld, a ld test isnt a psychic purpose, so you dont use the 10.

He has no LD, thus cant take a LD test, no effect.

I'm curious. If a Ld test that a psyker is required to take specifically because he's a psyker is not a "psychic purpose," please find for me a game definition of "psychic purposes," and cite the page so I can find it.

Thanks!

It seems like were firmly split between the people who play BA and the people who want to/already play DE, lol

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:Dread leadership argument again?

Look, people sure seem quick to coincide not being able to take a test with therfore not passing a test. Their logic is not flawed in the real world, but in the world of Warhammer 40k is is broken.

Within the ruleset of 40k, not being able to take a leadership test, does not constitute not passing a leadership test. All it means is you cannot take the test. You are prevented from ever verifying if a pass result was accomplished. It remains in limbo.

Remove real world logic and read the rules for leadership tests in the BRB. Passing a leadership test is clearly defined and not the real world nonsense of actually taking the test.

One thing that some of you need to note;

The rules say must pass a leadership test, NOT must take a leadership test. The rule in question along with Dante's mask I think are based on the premise that the target can even take the test in the first place. Basing a result on a trigger to a test that can never happen results on the trigger never happening to bring upon the result.

You would think with all the suspension of disbelief you need to play this game that the same would be followed with the rules.

This entire post ignores the fact that the Librarian Dread is given permission to take Leadership tests for "psychic purposes" and given a Ld value to use for those tests.

My assertion is that any test a model must take specifically because that model qualifies as a "psyker" qualifies as a "psychic purpose." I believe this interpretation is the simplest and most elegant interpretation and requires the least fiddling with the rules and creation of caveats and qualifications.

The problem is that "psychic purposes" is an undefined game term. If we do not take a broad view of what constitutes a "psychic purpose," we are then left with the requirement to go through every instance where a psyker might have to take a test and determine whether or not that test qualifies as a "psychic purpose." This is needlessly cumbersome when taking the broad interpretation gives a simple, reasonable, and playable solution.

Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Funny with that logic my entire DE army just became immune to all Libby dreads...shame really.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say by RAW that the libby autodies.

1. Psykers need to pass LD test. It in no way says that it is a psychic test, just plain ol' leadership test.

2. Vehicles do not have a leadership value. Furioso Librarian's LD 10 for all psychic purposes doesn't matter because the basic requirement (being a psyker) was already met.

3. The dread can't pass the test, i.e. poof

:EDIT: btw, i play BA

I feel its leadership 10 or be removed based on the premise that it says all psychic purposes instead of something more specific like using psychic powers. There are better ways to handle it but that would require house rules for that one individual circumstance. Such as an automatic penetrating hit at AP 1 or something.

Brother Ramses wrote:
Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the Librarian Dread can have a psychic hood? The psychic hood uses opposed Leadership tests, not a psychic test. By your reasoning, the Hood on the Librarian Dread would do nothing.

Also, a Psychic Test IS a Leadership Test, just like a Square is a Rectangle. There is no such thing as a Psychic Test that is not also a Leadership Test.

Further, the Librarian Dread's rules do NOT say to count his as Ld 10 for "Psychic tests." That is the big flaw in your reasoning. It says the Dread "counts as Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes."

If I follow your reasoning to the next logical conclusion, since "Psychic purposes" has no game definition, and the Dread has no specific allowance to make "Psychic tests," and vehicles cannot make Leadership tests, then the Dread cannot use psychic powers at all. I think we can all agree that this was not the intent of the rule.

Now, I hope I'm making clear why I consider my broad interpretation of "psychic purposes" to be the simpler and more elegant way to play the rule?

Dracos wrote:Okay then turn it around, if you don't count the LD score for psykic things other than just rolling the psykic test, then the Libby dread will suck hard at hood checks. Not having a LD score he would just roll a D6, almost assuring a fail whenever an opponent tries to hood his powers and never himself being able to hood an opponent's powers.

The fact is that this is an ill-defined term. In terms of mind war the RAW seems to indicate that although he can be hit by it, the wounds do nothing to him.

The "all psykic purposes" seems to be a very broadly applicable way of stating it, and therefore I believe it should be used as broadly as possible. No need to artificially/arbitrarily limit what is included in "all psykic purposes".

I voted B.

Saldiven wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:
Except the CoB does not ask for a Psychic test, it asks for a Leadership test, specifically a Leadership test which is a defined test in the BRB. Psychic purposes is all fine and dandy, however it is not defined in the BRB. So barring a clear definition of psychic purposes and a clear definition of Leadership tests, you refer to the latter which dreadnoughts do not take leadership tests and the CoB does nothing to a libby dread.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that the Librarian Dread can have a psychic hood? The psychic hood uses opposed Leadership tests, not a psychic test. By your reasoning, the Hood on the Librarian Dread would do nothing.

@ Brother Ramses : Welcome to the first page of this thread. Why do people post in threads without reading them?

Wow, I'm hurt, Dracos. Especially since I had made four posts to this thread supporting my exact same position before your first post in this thread. I only brought up the Force Weapon issue as a direct rebuttal to BR's post as a logical extension to what his position entails.

Not sure why my balls are feeling unnecessarily busted....

Aww, i couldn't choose option 4; pudding

Saldiven wrote:Wow, I'm hurt, Dracos. Especially since I had made four posts to this thread supporting my exact same position before your first post in this thread. I only brought up the Force Weapon issue as a direct rebuttal to BR's post as a logical extension to what his position entails.

Not sure why my balls are feeling unnecessarily busted....

Sorry, that was directed at the poster you were quoting. I fixed my post to make that more clear.

I find it extremely annoying when people rehash a "new point" that was refuted previously in the same thread.

Edited by Manchu. Personal attacks are not allowed on Dakka.

Saldiven, when you look up psychic test it directs you to take a leadership test for that specific purpose. The same with a Psychic Hood. The CoB just tells you to take a Leadership test, as it is written in the BRB. Other then it only applying to psykers, it does nothing but ask for a Leadership test. I don't even think CoB is characterized as a psychic attack.

Is the CoB calling for a psychic test therefore forcing the dread to take a psychic test and using it's "for psychic purposes" only leadership value?

Is the CoB calling for a psychic hood test therefore forcing the dread to take a psychic hood test using it's "for psychic purposes" only leadership value?

The CoB is ONLY calling for a Leadership test, which dreads do not take.