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Hi dakka, i have been looking through ebay receantly for oop imperial guard, and i noticed that there seems to be quite a few versions of some miniatures. some with terrible flash and mould lines, now i know citadel was'nt the best at removing flash ,back in the day, but this plus the reptition of some minis, and the high prices soem can demmand with the fact that now home casting is pretty simple, made me wonder if anyone had had any experience of buying fake oop minis , and is there anyway you spot the difference?

Well there is a lot of it going on and it has been reported here a fair few times too so it is definitely a noticeable and marked trend.

As for how to tell? Usually, the quality is pretty poor - as you have noticed, bad flash and mould lines. Sometimes the recasters use a cheap metal which colours a little differently. Be suspicious of sellers who seem to have lots of the same 'rare' minis (pretty obvious this one, most recasters aren't stupid enough to sell all the recasts at the same time but you can check their selling history too AFAIK).

I guess I have probably unknowingly bought recasts myself at one time or another as I use ebay a fair bit but generally speaking, if it looks OK to me then I don't really question it much and to be perfectly frank, I don't really care. I have never had a mini of such poor quality that I have had to complain or return.

Oh bugger , i think i might have gone an ordered some. Not that bothered as you say if the quality is there , just a little miffed , that there not that rare at all. Well i guess i will have to wait and see.

I guess the moral is not to get too caught up in a bidding war on ebay and always be suspicious of its origins unless the seller can provide provenance. Caveat emptor as always when dealing on ebay.

Lesson learned

There are few sure ways to spot a fake, but several indications. Double cast lines is usually a give away but there are exceptions as genuine GW figures do occasionally come with double cast lines particularly some older ones. The metal being shiny can be an indicator but again genuine figures come in a variety of appearances. The figure looking pulpy in appearance is not uncommon either with older figures. Brand new figures should not look pulpy though. There are quite a few obvious looking LOTR copies on eBay, or were a while back. Genuine LOTR figures are always of superior quality to these. It also helps to know which figures were issued in lead and tin. Some tin figures were released during the lead era that are still available today (Abaddon the Despoiler) and lots of old lead figures were available through their back catalogues where they used to cast them up in white metal. So that isn't 100% either, but it's a good start.

If you have a figure that shows many of these traits then you should look very closely indeed. The best way to buy is still in the blister or unopened box. You're very unlikely to get a fake this way, but you could be bidding against some serious collectors.

Some auctions will have a load of figures that all look the same, but in some cases there weren't a lot of variants of older figures, I have a unit of IG I'm considering selling and the majority of them are the same.

I don't know if it's an urban legend, but I've heard it said that there are more Sergeant Centurius's sold on eBay than were ever cast. Could be true, but this is a good example of a very rare figure that changes hands for high values. Buyer beware, it's a clear target for copying, don't pay more than you're prepared to lose. If you're paying a large amount be very sure you're getting the genuine article, buying in the blister would be good advice in this case.

If you get something cheap and it turns out to be a recast, then it's no great loss. You've got the figure, the quality might not be the best, but you aren't a great deal out of pocket. I'm not particularly concerned about recasts of OOP figures, GW won't release them, some are incredibly rare, and all the gamer wants to do is fill a gap on the shelf. I have no beef with OOP recasts for the most part, I don't like someone putting a huge "Buy it Now" on them hoping to pass them off as genuine, but I've got figures that might be recasts that I've picked up in wargames shows cheap. Cheaply recasting stuff currently available I take issue with because you are buying stuff generally available.

wow thanks Howard that is some great advice there, i will certainly look very carefully at them when they arrive. as for that ig unit , if they are the old rg imperial army ones , i might be interested !
thanks again

be wary of things from Russia. I just bought some space wolf forge world doors and got them in the mail.

They are pretty obvious forgeries. the resin is a dark brown, and the window slots for the front side are all filled in you have to cut the wind shield piece to make it fit, but after being out 60 bucks, I don't have anyone to complain to. I am sure forgeworld isn't going to help me.

N.B. Also worth noting that if do buy a re-cast, send them to GW, with a note of where they came from. Their policy is, were possible, to replace the fraudulent copies with proper ones, then go and get the dill weed ripping them off.

Obviously getting the replacement models varies depending on what exactly you've bought, but worth doing anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gannam, give Forgeworld a buzz or something. If your evidence leads the nailing of a re-caster, then the cost of them replacing with kosher is worth it.

Something I'm noticing a lot on eBay recently is figures that should come with plastic arms and weapons that are not supplied with them.

That makes me think "hmm".

Mr Mystery wrote:N.B. Also worth noting that if do buy a re-cast, send them to GW, with a note of where they came from. Their policy is, were possible, to replace the fraudulent copies with proper ones, then go and get the dill weed ripping them off.

Obviously getting the replacement models varies depending on what exactly you've bought, but worth doing anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gannam, give Forgeworld a buzz or something. If your evidence leads the nailing of a re-caster, then the cost of them replacing with kosher is worth it.

Hell, I was all over that the moment you said it. I bought 5 of them. Problem is, I already glued them into the razorbacks so I don't need anymore.

Perhaps not all that unusual. Certainly when I were a kid, I rarely actually glued the arms on, or in the case of my Genestealer Hybrids, had the wrong ones supplied in the blister.

yeah the ones i bought didnt come with arms either i just assumed they had been lost , well i havent actually recieved them yet so maybe i will be pleasently suprised.

It is a true fact that some people are recasting GW models.

That doesn't mean everything sold on eBay is a rip.

I've been buying Citadel miniatures for nearly 30 years. In my experience they have never had a bad flash problem. You can argue with their prices, but not their quality control.

If you see "GW" models on eBay with bad flash, you should be suspicious.

Some of the casts (of older stuff) when they went 'lead free' had rather bad flash, KK.

Rather bad and HARD flash (higher tin content).

You can argue about GWs prices and FWs QC.

This seems to be happening across the board with OOP minis... just look for Rackham Confrontation...

there is a user caomao1211 or soemthing (Dream Box Studios) who is selling 10+ of everything... "Not in Box" though if you search "New, unused, still in box" they have their items listed under this and then explain further down the page that its not in the original packaging...

This and the extreme detail errors + shinyness of the metal = fake

Kilkrazy wrote:It is a true fact that some people are recasting GW models.

That doesn't mean everything sold on eBay is a rip.

I've been buying Citadel miniatures for nearly 30 years. In my experience they have never had a bad flash problem. You can argue with their prices, but not their quality control.

If you see "GW" models on eBay with bad flash, you should be suspicious.

Bollocks.

I have only been buying GW models since 1987, but I have seen my fair share of very poorly molded models from GW blister packs. Unless way back in 1987 game shops were buying blister packs from recasters...

Double and the occasional treble mold lines. Gold and sometimes reddish hued metals (sign of bad casting). Bad mold lines, and heavy misalignments were especially bad during the era of lead. Sometimes it is obvious that the mold ripped and they never bothered to replace it, they just keep using it when a run of blisters showed up to a shop and they all had heavy flash in the same exact areas.

I agree with Chromedog, "You can argue about GWs prices and FWs QC."

[edit]

Point of fact that GW own quality control is rubbish:

If you buy a modelswith double or treble mold line in a blister from a retail outlet, this is a sure indication that GW themselves are recasting their molds from previously cast retail models, and not masters. Its happened to me more times than I care to count. I am still sitting on unopened blisters that I will never be able to get a fair pric for because the casting is such rubbish when inspected through the blister plastic.

Thus making such indicators impossible to claim as a sure fire sign of recasting. Thus making it even harder to accurately claim if a model is a recast or not. Howard treesong summed it up pretty well already. Its nearly impossible to truly and accurately tell if someone is selling recasts.

I buy a lot of metal minis with bad photos or paintjobs, because it's the best way to get them for as little as possible. Some of the models must be recasts given their quality, but I have no way of being absolutely sure. Sending them to GW would constitute a net loss to me, because it's not like they'd give me "real" Squat miniatures back.

But yes, the lack of plastic arms and weapons is telling. I can't get plastic squat arms for any amount of money.

Hellfury wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It is a true fact that some people are recasting GW models.

That doesn't mean everything sold on eBay is a rip.

I've been buying Citadel miniatures for nearly 30 years. In my experience they have never had a bad flash problem. You can argue with their prices, but not their quality control.

If you see "GW" models on eBay with bad flash, you should be suspicious.

Bollocks.

I have only been buying GW models since 1987, but I have seen my fair share of very poorly molded models from GW blister packs. Unless way back in 1987 game shops were buying blister packs from recasters......

.

Maybe that is because you are buying in the USA while I am buying in the UK.

When GW started to make models locally in the US, it's possible they sent over sub-standard or no moulds.

I can only talk about my own experience, anyway.

Agamemnon2 wrote:But yes, the lack of plastic arms and weapons is telling. I can't get plastic squat arms for any amount of money.

I'm surprised that nobody has recast the Squat plastic arm sprue. I have a Squat arm sprue that I make casts of in Greenstuff to make up the arm deficit.

The double mould lines on some minis are not always a sign of recasts. It may just be that the master casts (the first 10-12 good quality minis out of the master mould) were not cleaned up particularly well before being used to make the production mould(s). It DOES NOT mean that the minis are definitely recasts, but it is a reasonable indicator - most legitimate mini manufacturers will spend time and care to produce high quality merchandise; recasters tend to be in it to grab as much cash as possible with little work or effort.

Just my thoughts


Stuart

George Spiggott wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:But yes, the lack of plastic arms and weapons is telling. I can't get plastic squat arms for any amount of money.

I'm surprised that nobody has recast the Squat plastic arm sprue. I have a Squat arm sprue that I make casts of in Greenstuff to make up the arm deficit.

I wish I'd done that with my squat arm sprue. The same applies for Man o' War masts. The fact is that little parts go missing, Man o' War masts break easily, that's why there are so few around.

It's hell finding RT style plastic chaos backpacks, or RT metal marine backpacks. They are metal and still as rare as hens teeth, I assume they just got separated from their figures because the majority of my marines are definitely kosher. I've got a handful of those early backpacks, when I do the 40-odd RT marines I have I'll have to look into casting up resin copies to kit them all out because I never see them for sale and GW aren't going to help. If I did see someone on eBay selling 30+ of them I doubt they would be genuine anyway.

Howard A Treesong wrote:It's hell finding RT style plastic chaos backpacks, or RT metal marine backpacks. They are metal and still as rare as hens teeth, I assume they just got separated from their figures because the majority of my marines are definitely kosher. I've got a handful of those early backpacks, when I do the 40-odd RT marines I have I'll have to look into casting up resin copies to kit them all out because I never see them for sale and GW aren't going to help. If I did see someone on eBay selling 30+ of them I doubt they would be genuine anyway.

In this particular situation who cares f they're not genuine? He'd only be selling what you'd be making.

George Spiggott wrote:

In this particular situation who cares f they're not genuine? He'd only be selling what you'd be making.

gannam wrote:be wary of things from Russia. I just bought some space wolf forge world doors and got them in the mail.

They are pretty obvious forgeries. the resin is a dark brown, and the window slots for the front side are all filled in you have to cut the wind shield piece to make it fit, but after being out 60 bucks, I don't have anyone to complain to. I am sure forgeworld isn't going to help me.

Id extend that to beware of things from eastern europe and asia or China, unless the manufacturer is in that country. Ive seen many suspect items on ebay from those countries.


However, if you dont care about having the real thing, and the potential of a little extra work on mini clean-up is ok then dont worry and order away.

Thanks for all the info , i feel much more secure in my oop vs fakes knowlege now.

For those complaining about the plastic arms, a lot can't be stripped or made to look as good as "new".

I know most of my models from my early years are a combination of awful conversions, paint jobs and glueing, so much so it's better for me to strip the model, junk the arms and sell just the metal parts.

You'd also be amazed at the quantities etc, some people have of certain items....I know at tthe height I had 80 of the Various Brat Gangers, selling them looks a little suspicious, but they where all purchased from GW mail order.

Cynicism is well placed, but getting a fake is quite easy to spot with a lot of the models.

Slinky wrote:Something I'm noticing a lot on eBay recently is figures that should come with plastic arms and weapons that are not supplied with them.

That makes me think "hmm".

Actually, well...

Earthbeard wrote:For those complaining about the plastic arms, a lot can't be stripped or made to look as good as "new".

I know most of my models from my early years are a combination of awful conversions, paint jobs and glueing, so much so it's better for me to strip the model, junk the arms and sell just the metal parts.

Cynicism is well placed, but getting a fake is quite easy to spot with a lot of the models.

This. I bought a crazy stupid amount of the worst assembled/painted SM/SW for $35 at a local gaming auction. I'm talking what appears to be housepaint, shoulderpads attached backwards, and something the to effect of using plastic glue as sealant. Literally no detail left on the plastic parts. Likewise, they're stuck together. The best I can do is remove them from the pewter stuff. These are ancient miniatures that might fall in the 'lucrative' market too. Old edition Wolf Lords, pewter SW dread, old Emperor's champion, and so on.

I think that the fear of getting recasts is somewhat overblown.

One thing that people are missing is the physical weight of the model. The older minis were cast with a heavy weighted metal and some even had a lead content (so do not chew on older minis and not great gifts for small kids.)

I found out about the weight issue in 1998 when a traded 50 plastic SM bikes still on the sprue for a 150 IG Cadians. The metal minis were a bit bright but the detail was still there. Since I was still new to the hobby I believed him that he had just stripped them and it sort of polished the metal. A few weeks later I bought another box of IG Cadians from the store. Same models but the NIB minis were considerably heavier. Doing alittle digging around and a couple of people in that store told me that he made copies of everything and nothing be puts on the table was orginal. I didn't feel like a fight to get my stuff back the the detail on the copies were spot on so I just kept them. Years later I gave the army to another guy that lost his army when his house burnt down because i was not going to sell them.

interesting and tale of morality and miniatures