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Why wouldn't all legions have at least 1 SC? Word Bearers (to name just one example) don't deserve a special character? Plenty of options for their SC...

I for one think the cult marines as elites, to be unlocked as troops by SCs can work out quite nicely

I think this topic is better suited for "40K General Discussion" now...

Requiem wrote:Why wouldn't all legions have at least 1 SC? Word Bearers (to name just one example) don't deserve a special character? Plenty of options for their SC...

I for one think the cult marines as elites, to be unlocked as troops by SCs can work out quite nicely

I think you just described, perfectly, why not all Legions don't "deserve"(such a loaded word here. The terminology used really should be "X Legions don't have" the character, not "deserve") special characters.

What would a Night Lords special character be? Alpha Legion? Word Bearers? Iron Warriors?

Of those, they would basically all be some small variation upon Abaddon when you looked at them in a broad sense. A Night Lords special character would be one who takes Abaddon's normal FOC and then adds a Hit and Run styled ability to his units. He'd probably boost up Raptors and normal Legionnaires/Bikers somehow.
Alpha Legion? Infiltrate and Cultists. Depending upon who you talk to, this might be a very sophisticated version of Cultists where they 'reveal' themselves within your opponent's units, or simply a unit of goons with Guard stats(my least favorite method for this).
Word Bearers? Abaddon's list, with more Daemons and Chaplains.
Iron Warriors? Abaddon's list, with artillery! And entrenchments!

The Legions which as of now do not have special characters aren't really "defined" enough to have anything which makes them exceedingly unique or that can be used to create an archetype for a special character.

Kanluwen wrote:

Requiem wrote:Why wouldn't all legions have at least 1 SC? Word Bearers (to name just one example) don't deserve a special character? Plenty of options for their SC...

I for one think the cult marines as elites, to be unlocked as troops by SCs can work out quite nicely

I think you just described, perfectly, why not all Legions don't "deserve"(such a loaded word here. The terminology used really should be "X Legions don't have" the character, not "deserve") special characters.

What would a Night Lords special character be? Alpha Legion? Word Bearers? Iron Warriors?

Of those, they would basically all be some small variation upon Abaddon when you looked at them in a broad sense. A Night Lords special character would be one who takes Abaddon's normal FOC and then adds a Hit and Run styled ability to his units. He'd probably boost up Raptors and normal Legionnaires/Bikers somehow.
Alpha Legion? Infiltrate and Cultists. Depending upon who you talk to, this might be a very sophisticated version of Cultists where they 'reveal' themselves within your opponent's units, or simply a unit of goons with Guard stats(my least favorite method for this).
Word Bearers? Abaddon's list, with more Daemons and Chaplains.
Iron Warriors? Abaddon's list, with artillery! And entrenchments!

The Legions which as of now do not have special characters aren't really "defined" enough to have anything which makes them exceedingly unique or that can be used to create an archetype for a special character.

For Iron Warriors I'd say they would have more Heavy Support slots but less of another slot (probably fast attack) They'd be required to field a minimum number of Heavy support options too. Changes to FOC accessed through an upgrade to a Chaos Lord or a special character if they come up with one.

Word Bearers would be the same minimum kind of thing but with Daemons instead of Heavy and they have to take a special HQ upgrade which makes him a chaplain or something along those lines or a special character, as above.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

For Iron Warriors I'd say they would have more Heavy Support slots but less of another slot (probably fast attack) They'd be required to field a minimum number of Heavy support options too. Changes to FOC accessed through an upgrade to a Chaos Lord or a special character if they come up with one.

Word Bearers would be the same minimum kind of thing but with Daemons instead of Heavy and they have to take a special HQ upgrade which makes him a chaplain or something along those lines or a special character, as above.

But why do you need to hard-code that into the rules? Presumably, anyone making an Iron Warrior list would start by including lots of HS. Everyone doing Word Bearers by including lots of daemons. They only ones who would "benefit" from such hard-coded differentiations are those not primarely interested in the fluff, but those who end up mathhammering out that the "iron warrior"-list (or whatever) happens to be the best in the book.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
For Iron Warriors I'd say they would have more Heavy Support slots but less of another slot (probably fast attack) They'd be required to field a minimum number of Heavy support options too.

And what happens when that slot is where people want to go anyways, no matter the Legion they play?
We already saw this back with Pete Haines' Chaos book. It was a no-brainer option for people to say they're playing "Iron Warriors", even when it was a 1:2 ratio where they had to give up two FA slots for 1 HS.

It's just a bad idea all around, and encourages too much in the way of cookie cutters. At the very least, if it were me writing the book?
We'd see a generic Warsmith character who is available to all the various Legions. The reason being that the various Warsmiths do seem to 'spread out' and get into all kinds of shenanigans.

Word Bearers would be the same minimum kind of thing but with Daemons instead of Heavy and they have to take a special HQ upgrade which makes him a chaplain or something along those lines.

Same thing goes as with the Warsmiths.

Swapping FOC slots around is a bad idea, because when you're giving up something you never intended to take in the first place (2 FA for 1 more HS) then you're not really giving anything up.

But that's not a 'Chaos' issue, that's an overall Codex design issue (3.5 Guard and 4th Marine had the same problems with Doctrines and Traits, respectively).

I didn't say that it was a good idea for them to do that for Iron Warriors but it is one of the few ways to get an army which fully fits their fluff.

3 Tanks is not going to be breaching the walls of the Terra any time soon, after all

Problem is, army lists aren't for breaching the walls of the Emperor's Palace on Terra.

They're for breaching the walls of Outpost Ascending Redemption 24.

New rumors up on Bell:

BoLS wrote:Chaos Marines
-The "flying dragon thingy" is coming. It is a flyer and one of two entirely new units added to the codex.
-The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.
-The Chaos Dreadnought is indeed still there (take a breath people), but gets a new name, and a rules overhaul.
-Hardcover book (just like Fantasy army books)


6th Edition
-Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
-There will be "lore equivalents"
-Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
-Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
-The FOC may be history

You can read for yourself here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/04/40k-rumors-on-chaos-marines-and-6th.html

Hopefully GW is using what works in Fantasy atm and not what's killing Fantasy atm..

I think 40k using a % system like fantasy would change the game a lot.

Seriously.. for a lot of armies having to field 1000 points of troops for a 2000 point list would be a real game changer.

I'm not sure that we need Psyker Lores, however.

Maybe it will be like 2nd ed
at least 25% troops
at most 50 % hq
at most 50 % hs etc.

I wouldn't put any faith in unsourced rumors posted on BOLS.

Hope Dragons and Baby carriers with spikes are made up rumours.
Magic in Fantasy 8th edition killed competitive play completely (Mat Ward's fix to cover his killing competitive play in 7th edition with his Daemon army book). Hope this 40k rumour is made up as well.

Kroothawk wrote:Hope Dragons and Baby carriers with spikes are made up rumours.
Magic in Fantasy 8th edition killed competitive play completely (Mat Ward's fix to cover his killing competitive play in 7th edition with his Daemon army book). Hope this 40k rumour is made up as well.

/shrug. There's alot of stuff out there for "competitive" play. Dust Warfare just hit the shelves with explicit tournament rules. Privateer Press gets ever more stifling and dull in their quest to eradicate any trace of possible ambiguity. Not to mention the global circus of Chess, Go, etc.. for those who are truly serious about competitively measuring their tactical skills.

GW has a strong niche and "core identity" as a product by sitting precisely in the "models & fun first" niche where all those others are not. It would strike me as sensible (over and beyond Mat Ward) to stick to your strengths and don't go "New Coke" by trying to turn 40K into something it never was intended to be.

So the only new units for chaos is the dragon and a dreadknight? Where is my juggernaut riders, my demonmancers?

If magic becomes a part of 40k as much as it is for fantasy, my black templars are going to have a lot of trouble unless they become the ultimate force of power stopping (burn the witch)

unmercifulconker wrote:So the only new units for chaos is the dragon and a dreadknight? Where is my juggernaut riders, my demonmancers?

If magic becomes a part of 40k as much as it is for fantasy, my black templars are going to have a lot of trouble unless they become the ultimate force of power stopping (burn the witch)

My Tau would also feel the pain of a 40k "magic phase".

Though that might be karma for me playing Dark Elves in Fantasy who can totally bulldoze the magic phase.

puma713 wrote:New rumors up on Bell:

BoLS wrote:Chaos Marines
-The "flying dragon thingy" is coming. It is a flyer and one of two entirely new units added to the codex.
-The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.
-The Chaos Dreadnought is indeed still there (take a breath people), but gets a new name, and a rules overhaul.
-Hardcover book (just like Fantasy army books)


6th Edition
-Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
-There will be "lore equivalents"
-Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
-Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
-The FOC may be history

You can read for yourself here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/04/40k-rumors-on-chaos-marines-and-6th.html

These rumors sounds really, really bad.

I can only hope that GW doesn't look towards WFB for much of anything for 40K.

I hope they take as much as possible from WFB. To hit modifiers, movement value instead of fifty different movement rules, a good armour system and % based armies.

BoLS wrote: -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.

Oh God...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoLS wrote: -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.

Oh God...

Oh come on H.B.M.C.

Since the Grey Knights got the Dreadknight, Chaos gets the Hopeknight!

Nah I think that the possibilities for chaos for MCs are much better than the IoM. Something like a mix of a Defiler and a DP would be ok and much more fluffy than the Dreadknight.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Swapping FOC slots around is a bad idea, because when you're giving up something you never intended to take in the first place (2 FA for 1 more HS) then you're not really giving anything up.

But that's not a 'Chaos' issue, that's an overall Codex design issue (3.5 Guard and 4th Marine had the same problems with Doctrines and Traits, respectively).

Crazy idea... but with how butchered the FOC has become in the last edition with every possible combination of "counts as" scoring, troop, nothing, ____ and _____ ....maybe just maybe GW will do something to modify the core mechanics behind FOC? Maybe that's too rational for GW... but you never know.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoLS wrote: -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.

Oh God...

Wasn't the dreadknight suppose to be the answer to the defiler? I guess the next grey knight codex will need an answer to this thing. OMG is the dreadknight going to be baby-carried by something bigger?

I think there is plenty of things from epic that are precedent for Chaos' bigger-than dreadknight toy.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoLS wrote: -The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.

Oh God...

Oh come on H.B.M.C.

Since the Grey Knights got the Dreadknight, Chaos gets the Hopeknight!

Its genius, I'll take twelve!


On a more relative note, yeah, I really am wary about the fantasy stuff. I did a list in a thread of RPG/Wargames I played over in Large sscale, roleplaying & Board Games, where I noted I stopped playing fantasy in 2011. There is a reason for that, and I hope its corrupting influence doesn't seep too deeply into 40K.

Gargantuan wrote:I hope they take as much as possible from WFB. To hit modifiers, movement value instead of fifty different movement rules, a good armour system and % based armies.

To hit modifiers and different armour system will not be a part of 40K, it's one of the ways the systems are different, In fantasy you have modifiers to hit meanwhile in 40K you have cover saves. And for armour 40K has the AP system and Fantasy has modifiers. Unless it becomes WHFB in space these changes won't happen. Different move valuse might work but would require a new FAQ for every codex.

Shadox wrote:Nah I think that the possibilities for chaos for MCs are much better than the IoM. Something like a mix of a Defiler and a DP would be ok and much more fluffy than the Dreadknight.

You mean like the soul grinder for the DoC?

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

Shadox wrote:Nah I think that the possibilities for chaos for MCs are much better than the IoM. Something like a mix of a Defiler and a DP would be ok and much more fluffy than the Dreadknight.

You mean like the soul grinder for the DoC?

Nope the other way round

puma713 wrote:New rumors up on Bell:

BoLS wrote:Chaos Marines
-The "flying dragon thingy" is coming. It is a flyer and one of two entirely new units added to the codex.
-The second new unit is said to be a Chaos answer to the Grey Knight Dreadknight.
-The Chaos Dreadnought is indeed still there (take a breath people), but gets a new name, and a rules overhaul.
-Hardcover book (just like Fantasy army books)


6th Edition
-Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
-There will be "lore equivalents"
-Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
-Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
-The FOC may be history

You can read for yourself here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/04/40k-rumors-on-chaos-marines-and-6th.html

Darth Jervis: I am altering both Chaos and the 6th edition psychic system...pray I do not alter them any further.

This deal keeps getting worse all the time...

Actually to be honest I like the 6th edition rumors. When I was toying around with making a 6th edition rulebook one of the first things I did was I looked at the magic system from Fantasy and did my best to incorporate it into 40k

Farseers: Level 4
Chaos Sorcerer: Level 3 (can be level 4)
Aspiring Sorcerer: Level 1 (can be level 2)
Librarian: Level 2 (can be up to level 4)
Inquisitor: Level 1 (can be up to level 4)
Grey Knight Grandmaster: Level 3 (Can be up to level 4)
Grey Knight Terminator Squad: Level 2 (Can be up to level 4)
Grey Knight Strike Squad: Level 1 (can be up to level 4)

Items:
Collar of Khorne: Psionic Resistance 2
Psychic Hood: Generate an additional nullify dice
Force Weapon: May store a number of force dice up to the psyker’s level. Each one spent gives +1 S and -1 to the opponent’s save. These dice can’t be used for psychic powers.
Force Rod: May store up to 2 dice (force or nullify) for use in the next psychic phase
Runic Weapon: Generates an additional nullify dice.

Obviously some stuff is outdated like the Grey Knights and it's not an exhaustive list, but I think it could definitely work. There are force and nullify dice, akin to magic and dispel dice in fantasy, respectively.

As for the Chaos rumors, I don't mind the Chaos Dread overhaul nor do I mind the hardcover. The dragon and the "answer to the Dreadknight" just sound silly.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

A little too early to get all 'doom and gloom' over 6th ed possibly incorperating some 8th ed Fantasy ideas...
Considering the lamenting that's been going on about how borked the BRB lores are in 8th, I doubt we'll see anything like in 40k. Hell, look at all the 8th ed army books released so far - no insane spells in sight in the army specific lores! It honestly seems like GW has taken the hint that they went way too OTT in the rulebook, espeically considering jst how many tournies now comp the magic phase to reduce the power of the 'big 3' offending magic lores. (Life/Shadow/Death)

%-based list building is one of my personal hopes honestly. The current FOC is great when you're only playing upto 1500pts, becomes somewhat restrictive to at least a 1/3rd of the armies at 1750-1850 pts and is broken in favouring MEQ's by the 2k pts limit and above as everyone but marines starts to easily run out of slots!
Moving to a percentage system means no one is favoured anymore, and it'll really help out a number of armies who are currently heavily gimped by being limited to only 3 slots in certain areas. (Tyranids - I'm looking squarely at you guys and all your decent anti-tank being stuck in the Elites section!)
As in Fantasy, if 40k does move to a %-based system, I can forsee rules being added in to stop spam abuses - for example, no more than 3 of the same Elites choice or no more than 2 of the same Heavy, etc...



As for the current batch of Chaos rumors, I sencerily hope they're just alot of made-up BS myself... Especially the bit about requiring a named SC just to take a mono-god army. I mean, 1k sons for example are costly enough on their own, I don't need to gimp my list by being outright forced to add a 250+ pts character just to keep my theme going.

I honest to god would Love to see psyker spells being represented as they are in the fluff

I mean really, they are either okay or crap, when psykers are a HUGE part of the lore.

Plus it'd beef up black templars anti-psyker along with others, paving way for the ultimate anti-psyker the Sisters of Battle!