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D. I love ya like a platoon mascot favorite trooper. At times though I have to cringe. I do admire how you stick your guns and not change your stance. Your ID situation is very unique. In fact you are the very first person I have "met" with a situation that I had some knowledge on. The other one was Bush Jr military service. Still though. Andrew stop debating D.

 Jihadin wrote:
D. I love ya like a platoon mascot favorite trooper. At times though I have to cringe. I do admire how you stick your guns and not change your stance. Your ID situation is very unique. In fact you are the very first person I have "met" with a situation that I had some knowledge on. The other one was Bush Jr military service. Still though. Andrew stop debating D.

I guard my passport with my life now, it's the only proof I have that I am even a real person as far as the US is concerned. Nothing like a judge telling you "as far as we are concerned, you were never born." And that was pre-9/11. I can't even imagine having to do what we did in a post-9/11 world.

In the 5 years working for the VA I have met quite a few people who have missing paperwork thanks to that fire though, that single event made things hard for a whole bunch of people.

Hey I was debating Manchu. Then D came in wit his ID Apocalypse, which happens to so many people we should remember it while considering policy. Next think I know I'm the harbinger of "THE MAN" because I have a drivers license.

That Passport better be in a Fire Proof Lock Box or a safety deposit box in a bank. If not I will go break your dang pinkie toe D

I say again

ID just to balance the Voter Registeration Book.

Or we can create a Dakka Inc and apply for a contract to do it.....since I was a government contract overseer.....with active security clearance...with CptJake, Ensis, Ouze I think, SGTSCRUFFY....nine digits at least......

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hey I was debating Manchu. Then D came in wit his ID Apocalypse, which happens to so many people we should remember it while considering policy. Next think I know I'm the harbinger of "THE MAN" because I have a drivers license.

Don't worry, people reading your posts know what you are

 whembly wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

You consider it preferential to not be denied an equal chance to vote as everyone else.

OK.

That goes some way to explain your cognitive capability.

Well help me out here...

How is that in any way, denying an equal chance to vote?

I just asked a specific question on a specific case: Is it okay to grant preferential treatment to a group to vote on Sunday whereas everyone else, who is not a church goer, needs to take time out on a Tuesday to vote (or process a provisional/early ballot).

Frankly, I don't really care... but I thought it's an interesting topic.

I have already explained to you that it is not preferential treatment for a particular group to be allowed the same chance to vote as other groups by holding the polls open for long enough for everyone to vote.

 d-usa wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hey I was debating Manchu. Then D came in wit his ID Apocalypse, which happens to so many people we should remember it while considering policy. Next think I know I'm the harbinger of "THE MAN" because I have a drivers license.

Don't worry, people reading your posts know what you are

Apparently I'm the guy that doesn't understand how you can possibly function in this society without an ID. But you know if wanting to be able to cash a check or get a library book makes me look like the Monopoly man then so be it!

I'm not trying to mess with dates or hours of voting. In fact I'm trying to take those options away by giving Repubs the gimmie option. From there Dems can say look we budged we gave you something, lets move on.

 whembly wrote:
If there's "no voter fraud to speak of"... how come folks are being charged/convicted of fraud?

If I said 'toilets are no threat to our lives' people would know what I meant. I'm sure we could find a case, somewhere, where a toilet seat broke or a pipe exploded or something and a person got seriously injured or killed, but that doesn't make the statement untrue. Because this is a planet with a hell of a lot of people on it, and a very strange thing happening to one person, in one place, doesn't mean we should treat it as something that happens very often.

Similarly, you have a big country, with a hell of a lot of people in it. There was what, 100 million votes cast in 2012, or thereabouts? And so when there's less than a dozen instances of people casting votes claiming to be someone else, that is basically as close to no ID fraud as any sufficiently large society is ever going to get.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Like I said, priorities! You got it done didn't you? Are you superman or Hercules, because obviously a mear mortal would never be able to accomplish this task, right? And again Im sure there was no bizarre circumstance that put you in that situation, I mean its obviously an everyday occurrence that happens to everybody!

And this is exactly what the people advocating stricter ID requirements are hoping for: that if you put enough obstacles in the way of voting people will decide that they'd rather not take the time off work to take care of all of them. The laws have absolutely nothing to do with improving security, it's all about making voting more difficult so fewer people (of the "wrong" type, ideally) will do it.

Oh there are plenty of political attempts to feth people over all the time. Requiring that someone have an ID is not one of them.

So why is the NC republican party so strongly in favor of it? It certainly isn't about stopping fraud, so are you going to claim that that Art Pope is smart enough to turn the NC republican party into his pawns and then take over the legislature, but is too stupid to realize that stricter ID requirements aren't going to stop anyone from voting? Because the simple truth is that the people writing these laws believe that they will be effective in shifting election outcomes in their favor.

YES THATS IT! Because only rich white males have IDs right?

You need to reread the passage, it has nothing to do with 'rich'. It is about an attitude, and one you are giving almost a textbook example of.

 sebster wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Its called being a responsible adult member of society. If you cant be bothered to get a standard drivers license, much less a free id, well I don't know if I trust you to vote.

So, to ask my question again, would you think it reasonable to fund a program that ensured every registered voter had easy, free access to ID?

Then everyone has what they want. Republicans have their guarantee that the dozen or so ID-fraud votes each election don't happen, and Democrats know that their voters won't be prevented from voting because they don't have ID.

I guess I would have to think about it.

In Ohio a state ID is $8.50, hardly a crippling amount. I believe like drives licenses, its good for 4 years, so that comes to $2.13 a year, plus its good for more than just voting.

Now does the program have to round up all these people, and help them find their paperwork and fill everything out for them?

Does the program have to include buying new shuttle buses and covering the costs of drives, gas and insurance?

The more I think about it there are outreach programs, church groups and political activists that do this kind of work in the communities already, some of these may be government funded even. If not maybe people need to take advantage of them instead of being catered to. I'm not trying to get the government to spend millions of dollars for something people should be spending their own $2.13 a year for. Voting is an absolute right, but I don't know it needs to be brought to everyone on a silver platter. Nobody is paying for my ID or giving me free rides to the poles.

Look don't get me wrong. I'm not going to campaign for voter reform. If I see it on a ballet that you need an ID to vote, I'd mark yes. Not because I like Repubs more than I like Dems....which I don't. But because I think it moves one argument along and I just generally think you cant be a responsible member of society without an ID.

So why is the NC republican party so strongly in favor of it? It certainly isn't about stopping fraud, so are you going to claim that that Art Pope is smart enough to turn the NC republican party into his pawns and then take over the legislature, but is too stupid to realize that stricter ID requirements aren't going to stop anyone from voting? Because the simple truth is that the people writing these laws believe that they will be effective in shifting election outcomes in their favor.

No see, you are not following. They have a whole package of restrictions that they want to pass, limiting poling booths, hours and days of voting, rules about absentee voting...seriously a whole list. Some of these are obvious strategies to limit certain groups access to voting. Its awful, elitist, and probably racist! So give them the easy one. IDs are easy and less obtrusive than any of the other changes they want. So just give it too them and move on. If the Dems really are worried then they can have programs that help get people IDs and then facilitate getting them to the booths. The promise of a free ID may be enough to get people to come, people need IDs, you will be improving their lives by giving it to them and probably securing votes of people that may not have voted anyway.

YES THATS IT! Because only rich white males have IDs right?

Whoa now....I'm half Asian but I always check the Caucasian block.....and I have ID's.....

 Andrew1975 wrote:
I don't say I'm independent to blame people. I say I'm independent because I'm nuanced enough to know that sometimes the Dems are right, and sometimes the Repubs are right, I don't have to blindly stand up for one or the other when they are wrong, or when they are both wrong.

That's not actually all that nuanced. Nuance would include the idea that at some times one party might actually be right on most things, or at least that while one party is sometimes right the other party is pretty much wrong on everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Make sure they have sufficient ID or access to sufficient ID? I don't think we need to pick people up at their houses and hold their hands through the process.

But you do think you need a law to prevent less than a dozen instances of voting with ID fraud?

 Andrew1975 wrote:
In Ohio a state ID is $8.50, hardly a crippling amount.

This is why I asked if you've had any experience being truly poor. Because saying things like "$8.50 is hardly crippling" shows a serious lack of understanding of how budgets work when you're really poor.

And again, the cost of the ID itself isn't the only cost. There's the cost of taking time off work to ride around on the bus to and from the DMV, the potential cost of getting a birth certificate copy to get that state ID, etc. If you add all of that up it's very easy for someone to decide that voting is less important than making sure their kids have enough food this month. And that's a decision Art Pope hopes enough people are going to make to keep his investment in the NC legislature.

 d-usa wrote:
I guard my passport with my life now, it's the only proof I have that I am even a real person as far as the US is concerned. Nothing like a judge telling you "as far as we are concerned, you were never born." And that was pre-9/11. I can't even imagine having to do what we did in a post-9/11 world.

In the 5 years working for the VA I have met quite a few people who have missing paperwork thanks to that fire though, that single event made things hard for a whole bunch of people.

Pretty sure that we've had this discussion before about your relatively unique situation;

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/534495.page

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Ignoring passport, birth certificates, military ID etc. that leaves us with the following;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_documents_in_the_United_States

The U.S. Federal government issues the following types of identity documents:
Certificate of U.S. Citizenship
Certificate of Naturalization
Immigration and travel-related documents issued by the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services to non-U.S. citizens, such as the Green Card.
Passport
The passport card is a travel document available to U.S. citizens for land and sea travel to Canada, Mexico, and various Caribbean destinations. It was introduced in 2008.
NEXUS card for travel between the United States and Canada.
SENTRI card for travel between the United States and Mexico.
The Transportation Worker Identification Credential, a new biometric security identification credential to be phased in by April 15, 2009, issued by the Transportation Security Administration.
The Merchant Mariner's Document, issued by the U.S. Coast Guard.
Cards that prove participation in the Medicaid and Medicare programs.
Other documents that are evidence of an individual's identity:
Airport Identification (SIDA Badges)
State/territory driver's license (see above)
ID card issued by federal, state, or local government agencies or entities, provided it contains a photograph or information such as name, date of birth, gender, height, eye color and address
School ID card with photograph
Voter's registration card
Native American tribal document
Other examples of documents involving personal identity include:
Credit cards and debit cards
Internal identification card issued by one's employer, university or school
Proof of professional certification (for members of regulated professions)
Proof of automobile insurance card (when driving)
Health insurance card issued by a private health insurance company, by Medicare, or by a state public health insurance agency
Library cards
License documents issued by government organizations authorizing privileges other than driving, such as an amateur radio license or concealed firearm permit
Utility bills are often used as proof of residence or address.

In Indiana I can get an identification card by going to the BMV and proving my identity, SSN, lawful status and residency. The only difficulty that I have had with getting my actual permit (driving skills test is tomorrow) was over my status because of USCIS's mistake, and that's not a hurdle for a natural citizen.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
And your experience is typical? Or is it an exception to the rule?
If your records were " lost in one of the big warehouse fires that happened during the base drawdowns in Europe" then that is far from a typical situation, and a situation that not many people are likely to experience. I'm sorry that you had to go trough it, but please stop treating an isolated and minor incident as a major hurdle for proving who you are.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Then proof how requiring citizenship was easy for me.

My personal experience might be anecdotal evidence. But it's more evidence than all this magical "it's not that hard to prove" hand waving.

So your experience is "more evidence" than the many thousand that have to prove their identity to apply for US visas each year?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
My evidence that some people have serious problems is better than your evidence that nobody has trouble.

I'd ask you not to misrepresent the point I was making, thank you. I didn't say that nobody has trouble, what I was getting at was that the overwhelming majority of people do not have trouble proving their identity. I thought that was sufficiently clear.
You seem to think that your anecdotal evidence of an isolated incident that happened to you, and which many people will not be affected by, trumps thousands of people per year who managed to prove their identity successfully.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Having to prove you identification is not difficult in the overwhelming majority of instances. You have to do it to get a driver's license, to get public assistance, to get credit, open a bank account, buy alcohol. It is not an uncommon part of life in the US yet when it comes to ensuring that democracy is not eroded by people with dishonest intentions only then will people object to providing ID. We managed to get a system in place to counter voter fraud in Afghanistan and Iraq yet we cannot manage it here?
I was in the BMV getting my license today, and like everyone else there we manged to do it quite easily. Including the driving skills test it cost $21. If this was too much of an expense for me then I am eligible to vote I could get a free voter's ID (http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/2625.htm). For the overwhelming majority of people proving their identity is fairly straight forward.

Oh, and I'll be away in Dallas until Monday so I won't be replying before then so feel free to read/reply/ignore as you all see fit

 Peregrine wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
In Ohio a state ID is $8.50, hardly a crippling amount.

This is why I asked if you've had any experience being truly poor. Because saying things like "$8.50 is hardly crippling" shows a serious lack of understanding of how budgets work when you're really poor.

And again, the cost of the ID itself isn't the only cost. There's the cost of taking time off work to ride around on the bus to and from the DMV, the potential cost of getting a birth certificate copy to get that state ID, etc. If you add all of that up it's very easy for someone to decide that voting is less important than making sure their kids have enough food this month. And that's a decision Art Pope hopes enough people are going to make to keep his investment in the NC legislature.

No, it doesn't. My family was really poor. You seam to think that the only thing that ID gets you is the right to vote. I'm pretty sure in OHIO you can't even get Medicare, Medicade, unemplyment, welfare or foodstamps without an ID. If you are really poor you NEED to spend the $2.13 cents a year to get your ID. To be honest I would not be surprised if you don't already get the ID for free if you just go to the family services office.

But you do think you need a law to prevent less than a dozen instances of voting with ID fraud?

No actually like we saw we know of 137 out of 5.6 million, so pretty much nothing, but that's not my point. The point is, get an ID, become a member of society and shut the Repubs up by taking away their arguments and other stupid demands. If you can not be bothered to get an ID, I seriously doubt your ability to participate in the country enough to allow you to vote.

Its not rocket science... and neither is getting an ID.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Snip

Did I say it was typical? Nope.

Is it a good example that the "if you don't have an ID it's because you are lazy" line that the right likes to spew forth over and over again? Yep.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Hey I was debating Manchu.

"Debate" is rather too strong a word for your end of that exchange. We left it with you claiming the issue doesn't even matter. You've since made some dubious arguments to the ease of obtaining certain documents, unknowingly admitted to accepting the idea of a poll tax, and claimed to know what being poor is like while dismissing the real costs at issue.

As far as d-usa's experience being atypical -- well, that could be a sincere objection. Rules rather than exceptions ought to guide us. But then again, we are talking about a law designed to prevent a crime that, far from being merely atypical, in fact hardly exists at all. So I really must doubt that said objections are actually sincere.

 d-usa wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Snip

Did I say it was typical? Nope.

Is it a good example that the "if you don't have an ID it's because you are lazy" line that the right likes to spew forth over and over again? Yep.

That's not what I implied, much less said, but thank you for playing

You need to reread the passage, it has nothing to do with 'rich'. It is about an attitude, and one you are giving almost a textbook example of.

I read the passage just fine. Im not asking for financial statements, or for people to get a job. Im asking them to get an ID its not a monumental task....well for most people who haven't had their house sucked into OZ.

"Debate" is rather too strong a word for your end of that exchange. We left it with you claiming the issue doesn't even matter. You've since made some dubious arguments to the ease of obtaining certain documents, unknowingly admitted to accepting the idea of a poll tax, and claimed to know what being poor is like while dismissing the real costs at issue.

Yes becasue $2.13 cents a year to get an ID which again I'm pretty sure you can get for free is such an expensive cost. I never advocated a poll tax. I said if your really want to vote $40 is more than worth it. You guys are the ones that like to jump to derpy conclusions. I also know that if you are poor and without ID, in Ohio you are really screwed, I don't believe you can get your benefits without it.

But then again, we are talking about a law designed to prevent a crime that, far from being merely atypical, in fact hardly exists at all.

Again if you had any comprehension or reading skills I have said ending voter fraud is not the goal of the law. Moving the conversation is one goal, getting people to get IDs is another goal. Without an ID a person has NO ability to rise above abject poverty, absolutely NONE. If you cannot take that simple step, that basic step, you don't deserve to vote.

Will it stop some people from voting, yeah probably, enough to swing a vote, probably not, do you really want that to be part of your constituency and are they worth losing potentially other voters because Republicans want even more stringent laws and if you don't give them something, then they have a decent argument to go after even more?

I find it amazing that I threw this out here as a compromise to end the fing debate. But it seams your Dems are just as much about winning vs getting stuff done as the Repubs are. Good luck you two parties deserve each other.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

"Debate" is rather too strong a word for your end of that exchange. We left it with you claiming the issue doesn't even matter. You've since made some dubious arguments to the ease of obtaining certain documents, unknowingly admitted to accepting the idea of a poll tax, and claimed to know what being poor is like while dismissing the real costs at issue.

Yes becasue $2.13 cents a year to get an ID which again I'm pretty sure you can get for free is such an expensive cost. I never advocated a poll tax. I said if your really want to vote $40 is more than worth it. You guys are the ones that like to jump to derpy conclusions. I also know that if you are poor and without ID, in Ohio you are really screwed, I don't believe you can get your benefits without it.

I thought that NC was providing free IDs, or did I get that confused with something else?

Even one red cent is too much to pay, whether in cash or time away from work or in any other form, to access your constitutionally guaranteed rights absent some actual threat to those self same rights requiring government action. What else do you think is meant by the Constitution as regards rights?

Neither the federal government nor any of the state governments have any right to levy a fee, direct or indirect, against citizens' ability to vote, again, without some compelling reason to do so.

There is in this case no compelling reason.

 Manchu wrote:
Even one red cent is too much to pay, whether in cash or time away from work or in any other form, to access your constitutionally guaranteed rights absent some actual threat to those self same rights requiring government action. What else do you think is meant by the Constitution as regards rights?

So free ID is now a bad thing? Glad to hear that you aren't in favour of gun licenses, taxes, and other fees and other oversight or inconveniences to that Constitutional right at least

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Snip

Did I say it was typical? Nope.

Is it a good example that the "if you don't have an ID it's because you are lazy" line that the right likes to spew forth over and over again? Yep.

That's not what I implied, much less said, but thank you for playing

That wasn't really directed at you, I know that you have not made a claim to that effect in this thread.

 Manchu wrote:
Even one red cent is too much to pay, whether in cash or time away from work or in any other form, to access your constitutionally guaranteed rights absent some actual threat to those self same rights requiring government action. What else do you think is meant by the Constitution as regards rights?

Neither the federal government nor any of the state governments have any right to levy a fee, direct or indirect, against citizens' ability to vote, again, without some compelling reason to do so.

There is in this case no compelling reason.

Really, no one said constitutional rights are free! I have the right to own a gun, there a plenty of fees to get guns. I'm sure I can find lots of costs to access my constitutional rights. Fine when the Repubs get to dictate when polls can open and what days, just remember you could have thrown them a bone with IDs and been done there.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Fine when the Repubs get to dictate when polls can open and what days, just remember you could have thrown them a bone with IDs and been done there.

Except there's no "throw them a bone and be done there". The goal of these laws is for republicans to win more elections. It has absolutely nothing to do with compromising on election security vs. burden of regulation, the people supporting these laws would be perfectly happy if 99% of the votes in an election were fraud as long as the republican won. If you give them new ID laws now you can guarantee that they'll be right back to demand all the rest.

Andrew1975 wrote:No actually like we saw we know of 137 out of 5.6 million, so pretty much nothing, but that's not my point. The point is, get an ID, become a member of society and shut the Repubs up by taking away their arguments and other stupid demands.

Andrew1975 wrote: If you cannot take that simple step, that basic step, you don't deserve to vote.

Will it stop some people from voting, yeah probably

Jesus wept.

Please tell me you're trolling now. I beg you, please say you can't seriously, within 2 posts of each other, be saying that yeah, you know it's not a real problem, and sure, it will take away some people's right to vote, but it's OK because those people are valueless anyway.

I mean, I was going to make an argument to refute the former statement, like, how about a law that makes you buy a red clown nose and made you wear it to the polls? Yeah, it's stupid, but come on, clown noses are cheap and it would satisfy the stupid request of the people asking for it, so why not just accommodate them?

But then I realized there is no point in trying to pursue this further with you, because either you're trolling, or you're, well, rule #1, so whatever.

Seriously, what the feth has happened to the OT in the last, like, week or so?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Fine when the Repubs get to dictate when polls can open and what days, just remember you could have thrown them a bone with IDs and been done there.

Except there's no "throw them a bone and be done there". The goal of these laws is for republicans to win more elections. It has absolutely nothing to do with compromising on election security vs. burden of regulation, the people supporting these laws would be perfectly happy if 99% of the votes in an election were fraud as long as the republican won. If you give them new ID laws now you can guarantee that they'll be right back to demand all the rest.

Sure, you can see that attitude in the government shutdown. However voters tend to see that when one side is willing to comprise and negotiate, they tend to see the other side as bullies, much like how most people see the repubs right now. I'm trying to inject some sense into the situation. These polarized extremist win at all cost tactics that honestly both sides use is causing the whole political process to come to a grinding halt. Much like the old story when two Elephants fight, or in this case a Donkey and an Elephant, the only thing that gets trampled is the grass, or in this case the people.

We need to stop treating this a a zero sum game where if one party wins the other loses. This isn't a footbal game with a GD scoreboard! We need to make sure the people win and understand that sometimes a conservative solution is best and for some situations a liberal solution is the answer.

The two parties need to stop seeing each other as enemies but as collaborates to do what is best for the people. This crap is not getting it done.

If in order to get that done, we disenfranchise some fringe people that cant be bothered to get a free ID when it is seriously in their best interests, not just for voting, but for life in general....I'm not going to shed a tear over it.

 Manchu wrote:
More than one Republican is mentioned in that article. And each of them is talking about Republican strategy to many other Republicans. Please take a close look at the article.

As to whether you're going to change my mind -- yes, you very well could change my mind. But you will need evidence and reason. You haven't been able to marshal either so far.

Interestingly I'm not a Republican, and am excited about Wendy Davis running for governor. I guess that means Democrats must want to suppress the vote too.

 Peregrine wrote:
The goal of these laws is for republicans to win more elections.

I keep seeing people make this type of statement. The problem is that there is a complete and total lack of evidence that voter ID would result in increased republican votes or decreased democrat votes. Basically you have one side saying, "we want to stop the nonexistent fraud" and the other side saying "you want to stop us, whom you are unable to specifically target with this law, from voting." Both sides are demagoging here.

I'm all for Voter ID requirements. I am also for states that implement such requirements being required to provide ID cards for free. Otherwise it could be construed as a poll tax.