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 ninjafiredragon wrote:
So are you saying that that Eldar should be able to summon daemons (which is stupid) Or are you saying that the game doesn't justify that fluff (Proving your original statement wrong)

I'm saying that the fact the game is mostly based on fluff is the reason people find these kind of things so aggravating.

Also, nice loaded question, you'll get far in online debating...

 Galorian wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
So are you saying that that Eldar should be able to summon daemons (which is stupid) Or are you saying that the game doesn't justify that fluff (Proving your original statement wrong)

I'm saying that the fact the game is mostly based on fluff is the reason people find these kind of things so aggravating.

Also, nice loaded question, you'll get far in online debating...

Thanks

Well, everybody seems to jump on the bandwagon to field Overlords in barges. Its a huge point sink if equipped right.

I ran four in our apoc battle on Saturday and was not too impressed by them. Maybe I did something wrong.
Mine had a warscythe, 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, wbb on 4+, wbb with D3 wounds. I must admit that my two wbb roles didn't work.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, everybody seems to jump on the bandwagon to field Overlords in barges. Its a huge point sink if equipped right.

I ran four in our apoc battle on Saturday and was not too impressed by them. Maybe I did something wrong.
Mine had a warscythe, 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, wbb on 4+, wbb with D3 wounds. I must admit that my two wbb roles didn't work.

Can you explain in more detail what happened?

Mine have been invaluable so far.

Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

The CCB's main weakness is that it isn't any more durable than the Overlord itself once it commits to CC, and compounds that by adding the Barge's vulnerabilities as a vehicle against opponents who find it easier to kill, as they get to choose which one to attack.

Whenever possible the CCB must avoid close combat against anything that would normaly beat the Overlord or have a decent shot at exploding the Barge in CC.

 Galorian wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

The CCB's main weakness is that it isn't any more durable than the Overlord itself once it commits to CC, and compounds that by adding the Barge's vulnerabilities as a vehicle against opponents who find it easier to kill, as they get to choose which one to attack.

Whenever possible the CCB must avoid close combat against anything that would normaly beat the Overlord or have a decent shot at exploding the Barge in CC.

In fact, in cc the Overlord has a 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, and the enemy fights either against the Overlord or has to hit the front side of the barge.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

The CCB's main weakness is that it isn't any more durable than the Overlord itself once it commits to CC, and compounds that by adding the Barge's vulnerabilities as a vehicle against opponents who find it easier to kill, as they get to choose which one to attack.

Whenever possible the CCB must avoid close combat against anything that would normaly beat the Overlord or have a decent shot at exploding the Barge in CC.

In fact, in cc the Overlord has a 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, and the enemy fights either against the Overlord or has to hit the front side of the barge.

I noticed that you did not have MSS? I wold easily trade the Phylactery for MSS.

 Sasori wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

The CCB's main weakness is that it isn't any more durable than the Overlord itself once it commits to CC, and compounds that by adding the Barge's vulnerabilities as a vehicle against opponents who find it easier to kill, as they get to choose which one to attack.

Whenever possible the CCB must avoid close combat against anything that would normaly beat the Overlord or have a decent shot at exploding the Barge in CC.

In fact, in cc the Overlord has a 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, and the enemy fights either against the Overlord or has to hit the front side of the barge.

I noticed that you did not have MSS? I wold easily trade the Phylactery for MSS.

Well, I had mss as well. Sorry for not mentioning. But it didn't work against the Wolf Lord and walkers like the Imp. Knight are immune, aren't they?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, this was my first game in the 7th ed and I was certainly a bit stupid.

I lost one chariot after it had been charged by an Imperial Knight despite the fact that the Overlord was going first (cover).

I lost another one after charging a Wolf Lord (w/ storm shield, th) who had one wound left.

The CCB's main weakness is that it isn't any more durable than the Overlord itself once it commits to CC, and compounds that by adding the Barge's vulnerabilities as a vehicle against opponents who find it easier to kill, as they get to choose which one to attack.

Whenever possible the CCB must avoid close combat against anything that would normaly beat the Overlord or have a decent shot at exploding the Barge in CC.

In fact, in cc the Overlord has a 2+ armor save, a 3++ inv save, and the enemy fights either against the Overlord or has to hit the front side of the barge.

Plenty of things can wreck a decked out Overlord's day in assault rather handily, and anything with Armourbane and a decent strength value would have little problem penning AV13

 Galorian wrote:

Plenty of things can wreck a decked out Overlord's day in assault rather handily, and anything with Armourbane and a decent strength value would have little problem penning AV13

Armorbane isn't that common and there only are few weapons being able to penetrate S13. You would have to have at least S8 to penetrate the AV - which is quite a lot for melee weapons. Powerfists, certainly, but...?

Furthermore: keep in mind that the CCB chooses its enemies, not the other way around, due to its very high mobility.

 jy2 wrote:
Ok guys, I've got 2 games (actually, 3) coming up, all competitive. One is an 1850 single-CAD BAO practice game against 2 different armies - Tau and Seer Council/Wave Serpent Deldar. The other is a no-holds-barred 2K game against a GT-winning Eldar player.

I think I am going to show them that Necrons are still a very real and top-tier tournament threat.


This is what I am planning on running:


1850 Necrons - Single-CAD

Overlord - 2+/3++, MSS, ResOrb, Warscythe, Catacomb Command Barge
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb

1x Storm-tek

5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe

6x Wraiths
6x Wraiths

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

I think this might be stronger all comers tourney list at 1850:

Overlord - Barge, PS, WS, MSS, Semp Weave
Royal Court: 2 x Despairteks, 2 x Stormteks

Overlord - Barge, PS, WS, MSS, Semp Weave
Royal Court: 2 x Despairteks, 2 x Stormteks

5 x Deathmarks (N Scythe)
5 x Deathmarks (N Scythe)

5 x Warriors (N Scythe)
5 x Warriors (N Scythe)

Tomb Blade (shadowloom, nebuloscope)
Tomb Blade (shadowloom, nebuloscope)

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

I just think that's going to delete stuff, and be able to score multiple, spread out tactical objectives...

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

Plenty of things can wreck a decked out Overlord's day in assault rather handily, and anything with Armourbane and a decent strength value would have little problem penning AV13

Armorbane isn't that common and there only are few weapons being able to penetrate S13. You would have to have at least S8 to penetrate the AV - which is quite a lot for melee weapons. Powerfists, certainly, but...?

Furthermore: keep in mind that the CCB chooses its enemies, not the other way around, due to its very high mobility.

Which is why you need to avoid those things, which is quite feasible.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The monolith lacks defensive powers / abilities.

You've obviously never seen a 300 point Demon Prince get teleported to Delaware. Oh, and AV 14 4 HP and living metal are all plenty defensive.

It is a very expensive vehicle with low-end offensive powers and its main use being transportation.

No, it's main use is a utility vehicle that brings an 8/3 barrage pie plate, a splattering of extra Gauss fire, teleportation ability that can both extend the death reach of your units as well as the scoring reach of your OS units, and, most importantly, he can provide a 0+ cover save to virtually anything else in your army. If you are discussing the Monolith without mentioning it's ability to completely cloak the units behind it you simply are not properly appraising the unit.

While in concept, it is a strong move to deepstrike a monolith behind the enemy lines and then let other models appear through it, in reality, you face several problems. You don't have Jink, you don't have Smoker Launchers (or anything comparable), you got a huge footprint without DSM protection and you're a huge target that can hardly profit from cover (as deepstriking near cover could just as likely mean getting a Deepstrike Mishap).

I agree that DSing isn't something you would regularly do, as that splits the Monolith off the rest of your forces. The ones the Mono could be providing cover for, and could likewise being providing cover for it. GA's are better then Smoke Launchers as they are more then one use only and the Mono doesn't have to sack it's shooting to use them. You castle early, then spread as objectives demand. A couple of GAs and a Mono can completely cover mid-field with OS potential.

DSing is, again, a utility feature that you use when the proper opportunity presents itself. Your opponent knows you can opt to use it and will be considering it if they deploy first.

Our meta has always been more mech-heavy and thus you see more AV equipment that can quickly take care of a monolith. A smoke launcher would at least give it a good chance to survive a single turn, but as it stands right now, even a AV 14 vehicle can be deceiving when just looking at its profile.

If that's the case, so be it, although I have a hard time picturing it, to be honest. Most people are still spamming S7/6 for AV which, obviously, can't touch the Mono. I occasionally see melta but it's ridged and, you know, premeasuring is still a thing. Just don't go within it's range until it's dead. Outside of Haywire techs dropping out of a scythe I can't think of many things that even have a chance of scratching it. Even drop melta should be pretty easy to castle against.

These are all things that would be more apparent to you though if you actually played with a Mono in this edition. Throw one in a list with some GAs, CCBs, and the like, throw a squad of Tomb Spyders with Fab Claws behind it, and if you lose it more then one out of 6 games you are doing something wrong.

 Galorian wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

Plenty of things can wreck a decked out Overlord's day in assault rather handily, and anything with Armourbane and a decent strength value would have little problem penning AV13

Armorbane isn't that common and there only are few weapons being able to penetrate S13. You would have to have at least S8 to penetrate the AV - which is quite a lot for melee weapons. Powerfists, certainly, but...?

Furthermore: keep in mind that the CCB chooses its enemies, not the other way around, due to its very high mobility.

Which is why you need to avoid those things, which is quite feasible.

So what will be the main targets of a CCB? Its shooting is rather crap.

What I see in the new edition is Marine armies in pods or Rhinos, which have a lot of scoring potential especially in maelstrom missions.

So what will be the main targets of a CCB? Its shooting is rather crap.

What I see in the new edition is Marine armies in pods or Rhinos, which have a lot of scoring potential especially in maelstrom missions.

Didn't you just kind of answer your own question ?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

So what will be the main targets of a CCB? Its shooting is rather crap.

What I see in the new edition is Marine armies in pods or Rhinos, which have a lot of scoring potential especially in maelstrom missions.

Didn't you just kind of answer your own question ?

Actually I did.

The CCB is an interesting unit and its tempting to field it as exalted jy2 explained.

However, due to the maelstrom missions and troops having objective secured, I would tend to include a CSM detachment as allies such as
Typhus and (fearless) Cultists, or
Sorcerer (or flying DP) and CSM units in Rhinos.

Why? What is the CSM detachment going to bring that is that much better than a similar number of points of Crons?

Rhinos in particular are inferior to Ghost Arks - cheaper, but inferior.

MarkCron wrote:
Why? What is the CSM detachment going to bring that is that much better than a similar number of points of Crons?

Rhinos in particular are inferior to Ghost Arks - cheaper, but inferior.

Well, I'm looking for alternatives and cheap solutions.

Sorry, bad wording. What is the problem with a pure cron list that you are looking for a solution to?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

Plenty of things can wreck a decked out Overlord's day in assault rather handily, and anything with Armourbane and a decent strength value would have little problem penning AV13

Armorbane isn't that common and there only are few weapons being able to penetrate S13. You would have to have at least S8 to penetrate the AV - which is quite a lot for melee weapons. Powerfists, certainly, but...?

Furthermore: keep in mind that the CCB chooses its enemies, not the other way around, due to its very high mobility.

Which is why you need to avoid those things, which is quite feasible.

So what will be the main targets of a CCB? Its shooting is rather crap.

All manner of vehicles would be good targets save for walkers with a higher Initiative or that are superheavy (as you're very unlikely to take those out in a single turn), anything on the ground is a viable target for sweep attacks if it's within 12" (and you could always flat out away afterwards if it's a serious threat and you failed to kill it), units that aren't good enough in CC to stand up to an OL and are vulnerable enough that they would most likely fail the Ld test after losing the assault and MCs that can't ID the Overlord or penetrate the Barge without using Smash (which is rather terrible now).

MarkCron wrote:
Sorry, bad wording. What is the problem with a pure cron list that you are looking for a solution to?

Its nothing wrong with a pure Cron list.
As said, I'm looking for alternatives especially when it comes to scoring such as units coming from Allies of Convenience (CSM, Tau).

All manner of vehicles would be good targets save for walkers with a higher Initiative or that are superheavy (as you're very unlikely to take those out in a single turn), anything on the ground is a viable target for sweep attacks if it's within 12" (and you could always flat out away afterwards if it's a serious threat and you failed to kill it), units that aren't good enough in CC to stand up to an OL and are vulnerable enough that they would most likely fail the Ld test after losing the assault and MCs that can't ID the Overlord or penetrate the Barge without using Smash (which is rather terrible now).

I think game-wise, the number of targets will be rather limited.
Sweeping attacks vs. light tanks and then going flat out would be an option.
But here you already need to be within 12'' of the tank at the start of the turn.

 wuestenfux wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
Sorry, bad wording. What is the problem with a pure cron list that you are looking for a solution to?

Its nothing wrong with a pure Cron list.
As said, I'm looking for alternatives especially when it comes to scoring such as units coming from Allies of Convenience (CSM, Tau).

Ah, sorry. Ok, good question. I'd suggest that the purpose of an ally is to fix a gap in the Cron's codex. So, long range high Str shooting, a fast tough monstrous creature and psyker defense spring to mind.

Clearly, Tau can bring the shooting and the MC. I'm not familiar enough with the tau codex/slates, but a formation with a riptide and some suits would be good (if it was cheapish). From a CSM perspective, oblits are always one of my first targets and a Heldrake would definitely be handy.

Not sure what troops I'd bring though? Maybe a giant squad of outflanking kroot with sniper rifles? Can't think of a single CSM troop unit I'd really like - can cultists deep strike? That could be handy. Thing is our troops are really good compared to both tau and CSM, so not sure I'd swap for any of those.

Well, I'm not thinking so much about Tau. Fire Warriors can be rather squishy and Tau have no psychic defense. However, Kroot are tempting, outflanking or infiltrating if they are supported well.

CSM is more tempting for my play style. Typhus with fearless Cultists or a Sorcerer supported by CSM in Rhinos are more viable choices.

That's where I am too, MarkCron.

3 oblits, Heldrake, Typhus w/35 zombies is almost 800 points.

Riptide, 3 cheap, long-range broadsides, outflanking kroot, and a Commander geared out to help out the Broadsides is also in the 700-750 points range. Better, but the riptide isn't the beast it used to be (with Batman Commander attached).

In either case... I think I'd just rather have that many points of more necrons. Granted, I think we are moving back into an era of MSU spam with transports, but our gauss weapons have no trouble opening up the vehicles we'll see most often.

My advice? Take your warriors in Ghost Arks. They finally feel worth their 115 points to me.

700-800?? That's too many points for me....I have long thought that Crons didn't really need allies and in an MSU environment I'm now certain of it!

And I agree, the GA is now definitely worth the points. With spyder support they are bordering on awesome - well, until everyone starts bringing lascannons again anyway

Kholzerino wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
1850 Necrons - Single-CAD
Overlord - 2+/3++, MSS, ResOrb, Warscythe, Catacomb Command Barge
Destroyer Lord - 2+, MSS, ResOrb

1x Storm-tek

5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe

6x Wraiths
6x Wraiths

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

I think this might be stronger all comers tourney list at 1850:

Overlord - Barge, PS, WS, MSS, Semp Weave
Royal Court: 2 x Despairteks, 2 x Stormteks

Overlord - Barge, PS, WS, MSS, Semp Weave
Royal Court: 2 x Despairteks, 2 x Stormteks

5 x Deathmarks (N Scythe)
5 x Deathmarks (N Scythe)

5 x Warriors (N Scythe)
5 x Warriors (N Scythe)

Tomb Blade (shadowloom, nebuloscope)
Tomb Blade (shadowloom, nebuloscope)

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

I just think that's going to delete stuff, and be able to score multiple, spread out tactical objectives...

That seems like waaaaay too few super-scoring units to be useful in anything but "just for fun" games.

If he swaps out the D.Lord's ResOrb for a second Storm-tek it should work pretty well.

Any suggestions on solid lists built around the Transcendent C'tan in games allowing LoW?

Quick question - what's the most effective way of dealing with a Knight Errant? This thing keeps popping up in the GK 7th thread - I don't have one or the dex so not sure what it can do. Also, is it a Walker or an MC? Is it expensive?

Walker, I'm thinking scarabs to deal with it, MC, sounds like a job for a death and despair squad.

Well it's a Superheavy a Walker and therefore scarabs entropic strike has no effect. Crypteks with haywire are good options, but in general just a Cron-Air list can crush them with S7 tesla destructor and Deathray attacks. A dedicated Cron-Air list is the most optimized counter to Imperial knight primary CADs. Mixed lists with dedicated AA options however, can work well in concert to counter Cron-Air.