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I played a game a few days ago and it really made me realize how unoptimized a Ynari list can be.

my opponent wanted to fight the triumvirate, and I think the Visarch and Yvraine are too many points, they are both super fun, and Yvraine is good at what I thought she would be good at, a battle psyker.

Harlequins are amazing with Strength From Death Though. It is so easy for them to bury themselves in combat and never get shot. and it gives them mad mobility even if they kill the unit they were attacking (6' + consolidate, or another charge). One thing that is quite polarizing to get over is how terrible units in transports are.

Ynari don't seem to be a pug and play all-dar army, you need to build your lists to benefit from SfD

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
On the contrary, it means if he's in the same unit as Yvraine and not the closest, no one can LOS for her.

There is no exception in his rule about distance.

Agree to disagree on that one. I can't for the life of me identify how "you may choose" has somehow been interpreted by you as "there is no choice and you have to do it".

There is no choice in LOS in the errata unless there are more than one closest model equidistant.

The Visarch's rules say he has to be the one to do it. The only rule that supplants is when he's eligible to do it, you must choose him. Find the sentence in his rules which say "even if he's not the closest model". That doesn't exist.

LOS 2+: has to go on closest.

LOS auto: has to go on Vizzy.

It is just a question of wound allocation. BRB states the wound has to be allocated to the closest. This states the wound must be allocated to Vizzy. That actually does overide the distance rule, since it overrides the "who" rule.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
On the contrary, it means if he's in the same unit as Yvraine and not the closest, no one can LOS for her.

There is no exception in his rule about distance.

Agree to disagree on that one. I can't for the life of me identify how "you may choose" has somehow been interpreted by you as "there is no choice and you have to do it".

There is no choice in LOS in the errata unless there are more than one closest model equidistant.

The Visarch's rules say he has to be the one to do it. The only rule that supplants is when he's eligible to do it, you must choose him. Find the sentence in his rules which say "even if he's not the closest model". That doesn't exist.

Found the rule that disproves you, it's the same one we've been quoting "you can choose for Yvraine to pass Look Out, Sir rules automatically. If you do so, you must allocate the wounds to the Visarch" See that part that has been underlined for you several times? That says choose. As in I could choose to make regular Look Out, Sir rolls using the normal rules even with your flawed interpretation. Or did you find a line in invisible ink on the page that says "Yvraine is an independent character but she cannot make Look Out, Sir rolls normally"?

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I played a game a few days ago and it really made me realize how unoptimized a Ynari list can be.

my opponent wanted to fight the triumvirate, and I think the Visarch and Yvraine are too many points, they are both super fun, and Yvraine is good at what I thought she would be good at, a battle psyker.

Harlequins are amazing with Strength From Death Though. It is so easy for them to bury themselves in combat and never get shot. and it gives them mad mobility even if they kill the unit they were attacking (6' + consolidate, or another charge). One thing that is quite polarizing to get over is how terrible units in transports are.

Ynari don't seem to be a pug and play all-dar army, you need to build your lists to benefit from SfD

I agree.
I’ve played just the one game with the rules so far. I didn’t think my army was particularly good, or well built. I had;
Eldrad
Archon w/ WWP
5 Wraithguard with Cannons
20 Guardians w/ two bright lances and a warlock.
Shadowseer w/ mask of secrets
2x5 kabalites in venoms
5 Warp spiders
6 hawks
6 Jetbikes w/ 4 scatter lasers
Yncarne

I played against a windrider host with a wraithhost. A pretty good list, with a mediocre player piloting it. I was taking a pounding, but then had a BIG swing on turns 3-4. I won by tabling on turn 6.

It really seems to be a faction that highly benefits from having a good player piloting it. I noticed I had to think ahead, and plan for soulburst actions constantly. It really makes you pay attention and look to exploit the rule where you can. Again, playing against someone who doesn’t quite know the rules/faction well helps. My opponent made a couple of silly decisions that allowed a clutch soulburst to swing the game. If he really knew what he was doing, it would have been much different.

It’s definitely not a point & click faction. While you can just spam jetbikes, wraithknights, etc and do well, it’s going to be completely broken in the hands of a quality player.

I've had two games so far, and I have to agree that planning ahead is much more essential now. Its been a while since Eldar needed to rely on this much synergy. Sure, each unit can do it themselves but they work better in clusters.

During my two games, I learned two things:

1. I am obscenely lucky. (more like reaffirmed that one)

2. The Yncarne is really good! I got him locked in early, and he managed to jump combat to combat. He is a bit tougher than I gave him credit for, too. Still gonna avoid that D, though.

Ill have to add…my Yncarne did absolutely nothing in my game. She didn’t die…but added nothing at all.

As I was playing against 12 D weapons, I didn’t DS anytime on turn 1, or during the top of turn 2 (as my opponent went first). I used regular old DS on my turn 2, and kept her safe (out of range of the D).

She then proceeded to fail 6 psychic tests, 2 charges, and I didn’t use a single one of her special rules. Fearless, FNP, Inevitable Death…they simply never came up. I’ll be taking her to a tournament in two weeks time. Hopefully she can pull her weight at 275 points!

Only 6’’ movement seems to really hurt. Unless you can generate a soulburst for her, she seems to get left behind quite easily.

I really like the Yncarne on paper, but the games I've brought her in she has whiffed with dice hardcore, either failing to wound kastellens for 3 combats in a row, failing 3 inch charges with fleet, and other such stuff.

The 12" bubble of FnP and fearless is really good, and helps the survivability of harlies and the such.

It's worth it to take some reavers and bait out assault units, so like some reavers in front of assault marines, that way you get the yncarne charging in the opponents lines T1/T2.

I;m gonna keep trying it out, hopefully I'll get a bit more mileage out of it as time comes

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I really like the Yncarne on paper, but the games I've brought her in she has whiffed with dice hardcore, either failing to wound kastellens for 3 combats in a row, failing 3 inch charges with fleet, and other such stuff.

How does she fail to wound? You know she's got Fleshbane, right?

Belly wrote:
Ill have to add…my Yncarne did absolutely nothing in my game. She didn’t die…but added nothing at all.

As I was playing against 12 D weapons, I didn’t DS anytime on turn 1, or during the top of turn 2 (as my opponent went first). I used regular old DS on my turn 2, and kept her safe (out of range of the D).

She then proceeded to fail 6 psychic tests, 2 charges, and I didn’t use a single one of her special rules. Fearless, FNP, Inevitable Death…they simply never came up. I’ll be taking her to a tournament in two weeks time. Hopefully she can pull her weight at 275 points!

Only 6’’ movement seems to really hurt. Unless you can generate a soulburst for her, she seems to get left behind quite easily.

If you never used Inevitable Death, I can only assume thats because you didn't want to since it can be triggered whenever anything dies. I've used the Yncarne twice so far and it's made it's points back both times, killing a pair of Dreadknights in the first game and a Ravenwing bike star in the second before being locked in combat with hammernaters with Veil of Time.

I just realized another good use for MSU Khymera units. If you are taking double Reborn Hosts, you need 7+ unit in EACH detachment. So the cheap Khymera can help get you there if you need it.

Also, they could be decent anti-CC tools. Have 1 Khymera "babysit" any non-melee unit. If the Khymera dies, you can Soulburst to either move away (great for Bikes) or shoot any nearby melee units that might charge.
And if you somehow a unit near your Khymera is destroyed in your opponents shooting phase, the Khymera itself can Soulburst and assault. Even against a Death Star, the Khymera will prevent the unit from charging something more important, since the Death Star would be "locked" when it comes time for it to declare a charge.

Needless to say, I now have 4 Khymera that are full-on Daemons of Ynnead now.

-

That sounds like a horribly inneficient use of the very valuable Fast Attack slots.

I really dont see the issue maintaining your 7 unit minimum. Only thinking DE here, but off the top of my head we have:

-Court of Archon - 10pts
-Khmera /Beastmaster - 10pts
-Warriors in a venom (105 for 2 "units"
-Incubi also in venom (125 for 2 "units"

But your doing it wrong if you are wasting your FA slots on chaff. Scourges, Reavers, and even Venoms are better picks.

I am thinking that DS, double shooting Scourge heatlances for 120 pts is irresistable.

Blasterborn with a WWP Archon standing in front can also be fun.

DS in>Kill tank 1>Soulburst and kill Tank 2
Enemy turn, they attack you killing archon>Soulburst for Tank 3*

*Unrealistic, but will make the enemy sh!t bricks and force a spreadout deployment

 Imateria wrote:
That sounds like a horribly inneficient use of the very valuable Fast Attack slots.

Kinda of. Remember that the Aspect Host and Ynnead's Net can basically get you the Fast Attack units you want anyway, leaving the 3 Fast slots available if needed.
Also, this is only of use if you are trying to get 2 Reborn Hosts for whatever reason (additional HQs, LoWs for example) and you don't have the points to get 14 units. MSU Reavers work really good to, but if you really need a 7th unit and only have 10pts available, BAM! Khymera
I have built several list that had 2 WKs and they only go to 7+ units because I added Khymera

I plan on having 2 single Khymera accompany 2 units of Scatterbikes as a sort of cluster formation. If 1 Khmera dies, both Scatterbike units can immediately shoot, or turbo-boost if the threat is too close.
Additionally, it will mean that the 3-elf bike units won't have to take Moral checks as they will almost always be within 7" of a unit for the detachment.

-

I'm thinking of trying a casual close combat DE/Harlie list and was wondering what the general consensus was on Incubi?

Incubi are fine. I would take a unit if you want alot of melee. Dont go over board with them tho.

A unit of 2 + Klaivex in a Venom is probably one of the best builds. The Klaivex is 10 pts for +1 Ws, A, I and rampage, a fantastic buy. Great small assault unit I use to threaten counter assault or smallish (no more than 8) MEQ squads.

Might not work as well in Ynnari however. I used them with Dark Eldar and they benefit greatly from FnP and Furious charge, as they were easy to hide until late game and power houses for their points in that late game. I don't think Soulburst benefits them half as much. Still should work in princible though.

I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

You could do this, but it's rather unrealistic after the first time an opponent sees or heres of this happening, as they could just decline the challenge if need be. It'd work well against chaos though as they don't have this option... unless of couse they have a hero who will kill Ycarne

It's not guaranteed, no. But I think this could happen around 50% of the time. The opponent would have to challenge with an unit character instead.
It has been my experience that most players then to gloss over the challenge rules, something the Yncarne could take advantage of.

Likewise, you could always use the death of another nearby unit to pop out.

For the benefit of you guys, using soul burst to turboboost bikes in front of your units is a great way to block charges. If they've already shot at the target unit, they won't be able to charge the bikes instead. Just be careful about doing it too early in the enemy's shooting phase. Won't happen every turn, but it's a handy trick and easy to pull off if you use lots of bikes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Incubi are fine. I would take a unit if you want alot of melee. Dont go over board with them tho.

Yeah, I was thinking two units of four in a Venom, and the Visarch in one for extra slice and dice and Yvraine with the other to make use of the Santic spells.

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

Wouldn't the Enemy unit still need to pile in 3'' at their initiative step? That could catch an Yncarne that popped a couple inches away. The rule never gave them a consolidation move, so they should still be behaving as if they were in combat. Only if they cannot get back in base with their opposing unit with that 3'' move would the Yncarne be safe.

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

I don't see anything in the Inevitable Death special rule that would let it get out of being Locked In Combat.

 Imateria wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

I don't see anything in the Inevitable Death special rule that would let it get out of being Locked In Combat.

Page 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

Going back to page 47 : Locked in Combat "If a unit had one or more models in base contact with an enemy unit, then it is locked in combat"

Now reading the "assault phase"
1. choose a combat
2. fight close combat
3. determine assault results
4. choose next combat or finish assault phase

If you look at it all, you dont finish assault phase until all combats has been resulted and you no longer can choose another combat.

B.c you Determine assault results before the phase is over, after you determine assault result you consolidate, consolidate says you are no longer locked in combat.

So all I am 100% sure the rules are saying you CAN make 2 charges a turn.

Belly wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I really like the Yncarne on paper, but the games I've brought her in she has whiffed with dice hardcore, either failing to wound kastellens for 3 combats in a row, failing 3 inch charges with fleet, and other such stuff.

How does she fail to wound? You know she's got Fleshbane, right?

Yup! Quadruple ones baby!!

 gummyofallbears wrote:

Belly wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I really like the Yncarne on paper, but the games I've brought her in she has whiffed with dice hardcore, either failing to wound kastellens for 3 combats in a row, failing 3 inch charges with fleet, and other such stuff.

How does she fail to wound? You know she's got Fleshbane, right?

Yup! Quadruple ones baby!!

You should be playing Yahtzee instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imateria wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

I don't see anything in the Inevitable Death special rule that would let it get out of being Locked In Combat.

There's no rule stopping it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

I don't see anything in the Inevitable Death special rule that would let it get out of being Locked In Combat.

Page 53: Consolidation "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, or the end of combat pile in move was insufficient so that it is no longer "locked in combat", that unit my consolidate.

Going back to page 47 : Locked in Combat "If a unit had one or more models in base contact with an enemy unit, then it is locked in combat"

Now reading the "assault phase"
1. choose a combat
2. fight close combat
3. determine assault results
4. choose next combat or finish assault phase

If you look at it all, you dont finish assault phase until all combats has been resulted and you no longer can choose another combat.

B.c you Determine assault results before the phase is over, after you determine assault result you consolidate, consolidate says you are no longer locked in combat.

So all I am 100% sure the rules are saying you CAN make 2 charges a turn.

You are talking about something else. Yes you can charge and get 2 full turns of combat, but as you say only if you complete a combat, then destroy a second unit 7" away, and then charge. This is made up for by the reborn warhost detachment giving you two activations per unit destroyed.

What the other person is saying is that yncarne's rule doesn't explicitly say it gets you out of combat, but i believe it would work as described in that it would let you leave combat. To this i'd say it is my understanding that gateo f infinity gets you out of combat, right?? So why is this rule any different??

Your talking about the teleport?

In a unit with 10 models, 1 model is an IC that you challenged, Sense a unit was destroyed you can Inevitable Death out of Combat to 1" away from other 9 models.

So the wording of Inevitable Death doesnt say you can or cant in combat, but this doesnt mean you cant.

It is also said that Codex rules can override BRB rules, so I would be in favor of that you can Inevitable Death out of a combat in this situation. BUT! Lets say all that happened at Int 7-10 and the other unit was a unit of SM's, would those SM get to consolidate right away OR would they make a "Pile in move of 3" and be able to re engage combat with the Yncarne?

 Galef wrote:
I just read an interesting tactic idea on FB.
Step 1) Enemy unit charges Yncarne in their turn
Step 2) Yncarne challenges and kills an IC at I10
Step 3) Yncarne then used the Inevitable Death rule to "pop" out of combat, thereby negating the rest of the enemy units attacks.
Step 4) In your turn, shoot the piss out of that enemy unit and charge it with Yncarne.

Thoughts?

The problem with this, is that you need to place as close as possible to where that IC was. Which is always going to mean 1'' away from the combat.

The rest of the models in the combat, still get their pile in moves. Which they can then do, to make BTB contact. Combat will end if no model can make BTB, but as these models will be yet to strike, and still get their pile in moves, they will keep it going.