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downsizeit wrote: I've been working on a draft my suggestions to GW. Thought I would post it here for thoughts on my suggestions. I've uploaded it as a doc since it is 2 1/2 pages, but I can copy and paste it if anyone cares.
I will give you the same suggestions that I have given to everyone:
- You need to frame your suggestions in the context of playtesting.
- Bullet point out your suggestions in clear one sentence descriptions in an overview section.
- Provide a separate section with detailed feedback and anecdotal evidence from games.
Your document reads as you having reviewed the rules and, without playing them, submitted feedback. It is clear that they want PLAYTEST feedback, not armchair general feedback. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to put effort and polish into your submission or it will be ignored/not taken as seriously. I am now saving this response so I don't have to keep retyping it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PuppetSoul wrote: To be fair, the only Act of Faith that's really worth attempting, and is pretty much mandatory, is The Passion, and since you can only attempt it a maximum of 6 times per game, your list only needs to have 6 Faith Points.
Disagree.
+1 to Hit with the +1 to wound Strat is a good combo.
Ignore MW with Vessels is hilarious against Psychic armies.
The rest are situational.
Just because something isn't OMG powerful, doesn't mean you'll never use it.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor get removed entirely, and have Double Move and Double Shoot returned, than to see The Passion get gimped and have Acts of Faith not be worth the time it takes to roll the dice.
I was going to agree with this, but changed my mind. I like that we aren't Ynnari in power armor and have different mechanics. If anything, I'd like to see them add different faith powers to the mix. Maybe bring back the old 'turn armor into invul' power. 'get a 5+ FNP on a unit for a turn' power or 'rending weapons' from 3rd ed. Those were all flavorful and cool.
As for the passion, they should go back to the roots and give it increased initiative (in this edition, the unit strikes first) and gets to strike a second time at normal initiative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 17:24:32
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downsizeit wrote: Anyway, would appreciate any thoughts on my suggestions to GW.
I would suggest writing it citing examples of gameplay, and split the document up with headers.
Example:
-Faith Hand of the Emperor (insert your experience of the rule here)
Have an entirely separate section at the bottom for general impressions (aka 'this feels ok' or anything marked up as an unqualified suggestion rather than result of play)
You may also want to readdress the martyred lady suggestion, it's very mk1 soulburst.
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Well, people used to hate playing Sisters because of Celestine and her Seraphim thugs, those got nerfed into oblivion. So now people will have to hate playing Sisters because of the horribly named Pink Tide and 2 turn tournament games.
I do agree though, Vessels has got to go if we are going to have any hope in having individual Acts of Faith matter at all.
The other option would be to have Vessels only affect a limited number of units within 6 inches of the character. So 1 CP, it affects one other unit, 2 CPs = 2 units, ect. So the more CPs you feed it the more units it affects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 17:34:53
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
downsizeit wrote: I've been working on a draft my suggestions to GW. Thought I would post it here for thoughts on my suggestions. I've uploaded it as a doc since it is 2 1/2 pages, but I can copy and paste it if anyone cares.
I will give you the same suggestions that I have given to everyone:
- You need to frame your suggestions in the context of playtesting.
- Bullet point out your suggestions in clear one sentence descriptions in an overview section.
- Provide a separate section with detailed feedback and anecdotal evidence from games.
Your document reads as you having reviewed the rules and, without playing them, submitted feedback. It is clear that they want PLAYTEST feedback, not armchair general feedback. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to put effort and polish into your submission or it will be ignored/not taken as seriously. I am now saving this response so I don't have to keep retyping it.
Noted. You are right about the flavor of my suggestions. Probably need to slow down and get more playtests in to formulate a more balanced critique.
I would suggest writing it citing examples of gameplay, and split the document up with headers.
Example:
-Faith
Hand of the Emperor
(insert your experience of the rule here)
Have an entirely separate section at the bottom for general impressions (aka 'this feels ok' or anything marked up as an unqualified suggestion rather than result of play)
You may also want to readdress the martyred lady suggestion, it's very mk1 soulburst.
Excellent formating thoughts. Also, you are right about Martyred Lady seeming too much like soulburst. Just trying to think of an alternative as it seems so lackluster. I'll play as Martyred Lady next and see how effective it is.
Regarding all Acts other than the Passion being worthless, I definitely disagree. Spirit of the Martyr combined with a Hospitalar saved my Warlord and brought a key melta back 3 times from a BSS. Devine Guidance was also perfect when I comboed it with Blessed Bolts and in Cannoness range.
I also can't overstate how important it was being able to re-roll my Tests of Faith. My Dialogus was worth every penny (even prevent a sister from running with the +1 leader aura).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 17:48:39
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Well, people used to hate playing Sisters because of Celestine and her Seraphim thugs, those got nerfed into oblivion. So now people will have to hate playing Sisters because of the horribly named Pink Tide and 2 turn tournament games.
I do agree though, Vessels has got to go if we are going to have any hope in having individual Acts of Faith matter at all.
The other option would be to have Vessels only affect a limited number of units within 6 inches of the character. So 1 CP, it affects one other unit, 2 CPs = 2 units, ect. So the more CPs you feed it the more units it affects.
No one will have to worry about a "Pink Tide" because no tournament will allow The Passion to be abused in that manner.
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/IP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
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HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/IP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Now that's actually a scary list. If your OpFor isn't psycher heavy you can save 2 CP on the Brazier or give him the Litanies of Faith to perhaps farm Faith Points back (Although I tried that relic in my 2nd game and never rolled the 5+ needed). Depending on how the points play out, would you think it worth it to put Simulacra banners in your BSSs. Comboed with Ebon Chalice you are getting really good odds on cooking off AoF. Of course, I imagine you are going to be focusing on getting the AoF off on a character then popping Vessels.
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Blade of Admonition
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines . Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Celestian Squad . 6x Celestian
. Celestian Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
++ Total: [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
Basically stack up tons of melta with min seraphim squads, then stack invulnerable save bonuses on them and take the 6+++
large trinity celestian squad to try and keep the buffers alive
troops in immolators
send core of exorcists and a buff canoness to hang with them, with the order to give more faith points if the finish something off, and a pen engine incase something is in melee and needs to be dislodged
22 meltas seem to be enough
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 19:37:31
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HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/IP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Now that's actually a scary list. If your OpFor isn't psycher heavy you can save 2 CP on the Brazier or give him the Litanies of Faith to perhaps farm Faith Points back (Although I tried that relic in my 2nd game and never rolled the 5+ needed). Depending on how the points play out, would you think it worth it to put Simulacra banners in your BSSs. Comboed with Ebon Chalice you are getting really good odds on cooking off AoF. Of course, I imagine you are going to be focusing on getting the AoF off on a character then popping Vessels.
I've been really tight on points. I feel like I don't need the simulacrum, but I guess we'll see. Really Passion is the hard one and I don't plan on using that a super lot since I won't be doing the Passion out of CC thing without a FAQ. Right now, I envision using a lot of the +1 to hit act with the canoness reroll to make things nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote: Here's what I'm eying as my full sisters, no allies list
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Missionary: Laspistol
+ Fast Attack +
Dominion Squad . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Blade of Admonition
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines . Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Celestian Squad . 6x Celestian
. Celestian Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
++ Total: [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
Basically stack up tons of melta with min seraphim squads, then stack invulnerable save bonuses on them and take the 6+++
large trinity celestian squad to try and keep the buffers alive
troops in immolators
send core of exorcists and a buff canoness to hang with them, with the order to give more faith points if the finish something off, and a pen engine incase something is in melee and needs to be dislodged
22 meltas seem to be enough
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 19:40:07
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alextroy wrote: Did you try using Faith and Fury with Divine Guidance?
Seems like adding Re-roll 1's to Wound with the +1 to Hit on shooting attacks could be pretty good for increasing damage potential on units. Whether you are making sure those Meltaguns hit and wound, increasing the effectiveness of a big squad's bolter, or really getting the best out of Blessed Bolts, sounds like a solid improvements to just the +1 to Hit alone.
No I did not unfortunately. I did not have any good targets for shooting. One of my dominion squad and another sister squad died in their immolators, unable to get out.
My other dominion squad was on the other flank, away from any interesting targets. It ended up shooting into some pink horrors before charging in. I used the FP because I simply had too many left at that point and could see the game was moving forward quickly and would be unable to spent them all before the end.
Its a decent combo for sure, but I am thinking it's going to be better used on Seraphims trying to clear a backfield objective or chaff.
A 5 x Stormbolter Dominion squad popping divine guidance, blessed bolt and faith and fury would also likely result in some severe damage to your opponent. They would need to get out of their transport, but would still be worthwhile.
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My thought is entirely, that seraphim with meltas are sub-100 points, and dont need a transport, by buffing their invulnerable, they are "usually" going to be 2+ with cover or 4++ with a 6+++ on top of that, thats pretty tough for the point cost.
Since they dont need transports, you can field a TON of them while still keeping your scoring troops in immolators and not suffering from having too few models or being too slow, it should be pretty hard to dislodge ~60 3+/3++/6+ models even at T3
Best part is i'm not even sure the pen engine is even needed, it could easily become yet another 5 man seraphim squad with 4 more melta, and an evicerator or upgrading the missionary, any number of little things
i'm not sure how many people are going to be prepared for 60 power armored infantry with almost a third if them carrying melta
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/18 19:48:27
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Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 19:57:36
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
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Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
I'm going with an IP on the Sup. You're already within 6" so why not keep it all together.
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 20:25:05
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Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
In my mind I always think of hand flamers as 1-6 guardsmen lasguns, stops me from getting very excited :p
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Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
In my mind I always think of hand flamers as 1-6 guardsmen lasguns, stops me from getting very excited :p
Yeah, but for the points it isn't bad.
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Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
You think about dropping a model or two to get SB or HB for the BSS in the first detach and the Celestians? I hate having units without specials. I hadn't thought of SB on the Canoness. That's a good idea.
Also, any thoughts on adding some IP into the Seraphim. You have plenty of AntiHorde, but AT might be necessary.
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Re: Inferno Pistol Seraphim:
I'd be concerned about armies that screen well and the short range on those pistols. Its a long trip across the board without a double move, and a lot of exposure, and without double tapping heavy bolters, there aren't great ways to clear screens. I think I'm going to keep 2 units of melta Doms in Immos and 2 Exos as my AT, but having JUST built six IP Seraphim conversions, I'll be interested to hear how your Seraph Spam works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 21:14:53
Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
thats is so much cp, so much
You may want to consider trimming some of the sisters squads, and seraphim squads back, and taking more min units, this way you can pack more anti tank and special weapons into the same units for example trimming a few foot squads back by one or two sisters, you can cram a heavy flamer and meltagun into the celestian squad so they can trinity while only costing you a few bolters in return
you shouldn't need more than three or 4 targets for trinity or burning descent
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I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
Those are all good advice, but my issue with anti-tank is that these will be the first thing taken off the board by my opponent.
Inferno Pistol Seraphims lose in power with the stratagem and running those up the board will make them priority number 1 and they do not have the staying power that the bait exorcists will have.
I am not actually planning on killing any tanks. I am planning on tagging them into assault and preventing them from shooting at me. Board control will be key here.
Even a knight, once surrounded by 15-30 bodies with a 4++, and unable to retreat, will lose most of his value.
I did not put any special weapons on the 5 BSS squads as I am planning to either keep them on my home objective or screen the exorcists if they stay back.
Given how disposable they will be, I do not think its worth putting more points into them.
As for the Celestians, they are technically bodyguards for the canoness and I might have to make them Ebon Chalice to fulfill that role. I could shrink them to 5 and buy a few more upgrades around, thats definitely an option since they are to be disposable as well.
deviantduck wrote: I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
Good catch. I'll fix my list.
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deviantduck wrote: I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
Good catch. I'll fix my list.
This one is always at the top of my brain because it's irked me all through 8th. The superior to benefit the most from the IP didn't get access to one.That, and I try not to use plasma. Sticking to the holy trinity might be the only fluffy thing I do with sisters.
Voldrak wrote: Those are all good advice, but my issue with anti-tank is that these will be the first thing taken off the board by my opponent.
Inferno Pistol Seraphims lose in power with the stratagem and running those up the board will make them priority number 1 and they do not have the staying power that the bait exorcists will have.
You don't use the stratagem on them, that's just a given. And if you're opponent is targeting your tons of units of IP Seraphs vs the rest of your army, you're probably winning.
I did not put any special weapons on the 5 BSS squads as I am planning to either keep them on my home objective or screen the exorcists if they stay back.
Given how disposable they will be, I do not think its worth putting more points into them.
As for the Celestians, they are technically bodyguards for the canoness and I might have to make them Ebon Chalice to fulfill that role. I could shrink them to 5 and buy a few more upgrades around, thats definitely an option since they are to be disposable as well.
It's not worth 4 points to add double SB to each squad in case something gets in your backfield?
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I start 60 sisters on my deployment line. Spread the other 30 to deny deepstrikes behind you as you move up.
Assuming a Dawn of War scenario, It does not really matter if I go first or second.
I start with 60 sisters on my deployment line. Use the rest to deny your backfield from getting deep striked into.
I will move those sisters forward, hopefully, 9 inches on turn 1. If there's nothing to shoot at, advance the army as well and be careful not to break aura buffs.
Turn two is where the game will likely play itself.
You might be in double tap range with the majority of your army after moving up 15-21 inches. You can vessel divine guidance for (assuming all sisters are still alive) 144 bolter shots hitting on 2s and re-rolling 1s.
Anything that is not a tank is likely to be crippled.
Next phase, if you charged in any units, vessel the passion and laugh at the amount of dices being rolled. Even if the passion fails, by then you should have crippled your opponent and ability to react.
Rinse and repeat for the next rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stratagems being once per phase, vessel begs to be used during all your phases and command points should be as high as you can.
Once you're done moving, you could even start using vessel on Spirit of the Martyr and just start healing everything around you and resurrecting 6+ models per turn would be so annoying for your opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/18 21:58:43
I can appreciate your commitment to our new Codex-- good job trying to optimize-- but I can't stand the shuffling horde of zombie Sisters. I feel like one well-placed unit of Nurglings could throw off the whole scheme. Even if that weren't the case, I want a dynamic, multifaceted force... these troops running over here to do this, that group sitting back and doing that, somebody showing up and doing something unexpected, etc. I'm super bummed that our new mechanic seems to be to go all in on one thing.
I'll join this new list party later tonight, with comments for the new lists already posted. Great energy, everyone, keep it up!
MacPhail wrote: I can appreciate your commitment to our new Codex-- good job trying to optimize-- but I can't stand the shuffling horde of zombie Sisters. I feel like one well-placed unit of Nurglings could throw off the whole scheme. Even if that weren't the case, I want a dynamic, multifaceted force... these troops running over here to do this, that group sitting back and doing that, somebody showing up and doing something unexpected, etc. I'm super bummed that our new mechanic seems to be to go all in on one thing.
I'll join this new list party later tonight, with comments for the new lists already posted. Great energy, everyone, keep it up!
That's kind of what my list was doing, if you scroll back a bit.
Solid firebase, advance scouts, folks wandering off and doing other stuff.
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Mmmpi wrote: I'm honestly not a fan of the CP for faith stratagems, either the 1 for 1, or the 1d3 for a dead character.
Particularly until either Passions, or vessels gets errata.
To be fair, the only Act of Faith that's really worth attempting, and is pretty much mandatory, is The Passion, and since you can only attempt it a maximum of 6 times per game, your list only needs to have 6 Faith Points.
The reason the AoF strats and traits all suck is because the system sucks and the Acts themselves suck (which the exception of The Passion).
If the Acts didn't suck, you would be making a weighted decision whether or not you need more Faith Points, such as if Spirit of the Martyr revived d3 one-wound models instead of just one, or Hand of the Emperor could be used during the charge phase to add 3" to a unit's charge rolls.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor get removed entirely, and have Double Move and Double Shoot returned, than to see The Passion get gimped and have Acts of Faith not be worth the time it takes to roll the dice.
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Oh I agree with you. Just right now they're not very useful.
And I don't want to get rid of Passion. I want the rest of the acts to improve. No reason though to remove the pink tide style though. Just don't let it be the only style.
18 / 3 / 6 since 6th ed. 
Finished Forge World Elysian Army 
Finished Tau Sept Cadre 
Alaitoc Eldar Warhost 
Finished Necromundian Imperial Guard Regiment 
