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karandrasss wrote:
Thoughts on the FLG article? Loving Wraithblades but not sure Howling Banshees and Wyches care much about going Ynnari.

I can see kinda the appeal of Wraithblades. Not sure about Banshees. Shining Spears seem better to me, especially given the lack of mobility buffs in Ynnari. Not seeing the appeal of Ynnari Wyches at all.

The thing is, Eldar just seem to have more and vastly better buffs.

I don't know, I get the appeal if you want to play Ynnari for flavour reasons but compared to regular Eldar they just seem outright inferior.

karandrasss wrote:
Thoughts on the FLG article? Loving Wraithblades but not sure Howling Banshees and Wyches care much about going Ynnari.

The article contains American style optimism, i respect they try to find good everywhere, but even they admit there is more bad than good in this rework.
I play often with blades and guard, their main issue is the lack of speed and Ynnari blades are even slower and they don`t get much more durable. Small units of blades 5-6 don`t have impact even with double fight and i don`t see them doing better now.
Howling banshees are overpriced and they provide more utility, they are not game winning units.
Wyches are decent, but Ynnari don`t really make them much better.

The real issue is that the stratagems are to situational, you have very little good ones and the characters are seriously overpriced for what they do.

Even though it is probably hyperbole, I'm glad it mirrors my own opinion of utilizing wyches and wraithblades. I also looked at banshees last night as I think we're going to see a big surge of tau in th emeta and stopping overwatch will be important.

 bullyboy wrote:
Even though it is probably hyperbole, I'm glad it mirrors my own opinion of utilizing wyches and wraithblades. I also looked at banshees last night as I think we're going to see a big surge of tau in th emeta and stopping overwatch will be important.

That is true, but do Banshees do more work in Ynarri than in Craftworld, like Biel Tan for example? I'm probably in more agreement with Marin for most of Ynarri, there are things that 'work' in Ynarri, but those same units also 'work' as good or better in their original codex. I found myself reading the FLG article and thinking, sure, that unit is ok, but it's better with it's own codex support.

Seeing as how you can include the only original Ynarri units (the characters) in any Aeldari detatchment without breaking it, the real question is are the Ynarri WL traits, strats, and relics worth what you have to give up to use them. IMO not really.

Biel-Tan doesn't buff Aspects output really, unless they wield loads of Shuriken weaponry (which only 2 of them do). At least it doesn't do it in a straightforward manner. Eldar Codex logic.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Biel-Tan doesn't buff Aspects output really, unless they wield loads of Shuriken weaponry (which only 2 of them do). At least it doesn't do it in a straightforward manner. Eldar Codex logic.

It's more for the strat on the aspect warriors than the re-roll shuriken and ld buff.

Do Wraithblades lose anything by going Ynnari? For defense they have Shield of Ynnead and Word of the Phoenix, offense SfD.

Well check Vigilus Wraith Host.

An expensive way to get +1 attacks to one unit per turn and doesn't address delivery method, which is what you need for a melee unit that moves 5".

And Ynnari is less expensive?

It covers survivability, offence, re-roll for charging, and you can still have Quicken.

Well kind of, because +1 to hit is your faction ability, rerolls is from the Visarch who is also good at fighting.

That re-roll to charge has opportunity cost. Ynnari has some good warlord traits. Ynnari can heal/revive and get 5++ without spending CP. And this 5++ applicable to the Wave Serpents you put your Wraiths in.

+1 is not an ability, it happens if you kill a unit. Not all armies might allow you that and not every turn either. It is not a given. Neither is 5++, because to have it in close combat you'd have to charge Yvraine too or stay close (so no consolidating). Stuff like Protect or Spirit Shield OTOH works just until your next turn, which is good.

To keep 5++ on Serpents you'd want another fast moving caster, so back to Ynnari not being expensive.

Also I have a nagging feeling that 5++ was intended for Infantry and Bikers and they might fix that.

The more I play the more I lean into Ynnari are inherently a biker force. I'm trying to make a 3 bean casserole list, just to see if it can be ok and I'm finding that the bikes are simply the best choice. They have inherent mobility, due to being bikes and tend to be close combat oriented.

Reavers we've discussed plenty, but are at about twice the effectiveness in Ynarri lists.

Shining Spears kinda break even (better odds of hitting, but no Jinx), again, all hashed out already.

Skyweavers though keep pulling to be Ynarri every time I include them. Ynarri is their only source of rerolls to hit in shooting (through Ancestor's Grace) and a good source of reroll to wound in combat if the Troupe master is dead/out of range/you didn't take one. They also don't lose much as the Masque Forms benefit the Skyweavers less than the rest of the 'quins. For this reason, I'm wanting them to be Ynarri a lot, which means I am playing Ynarri Reavers and Skyweavers... so I might as well try to add the CWE component and make the Yncarne work.

You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

 Shadenuat wrote:
You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

3++ is nice, but not massively necessary. And the double move is OK, but not better than hit better in combat, as getting there and not being very effective isn't great. Neither is better than rerolls to hit with Haywire.

Here's some information on Skyweavers CC efficiency as Frozen Stars vs Ynnari, GH is Great Harlequin, so the added bonus is the reroll one to hit from his aura. Ynnari harlequins are assumed to have reroll 1s as well, as they are the best target for Ancestor's Grace and/or could be near a Ynnari reroll 1s bubble.

Other than against maybe Knight armies, you can usually build your list so that you have elements that can kill something to activate soul burst. Definitely don't do pure Ynnari, unless you're running a lockdown list that cares less about SfD.

Yvraine should be in close combat. You're paying for her close combat abilities. A shieldseer on bike is great and I don't see it as a knock of Yvraine. It keeps its Runes of the Farseer for better smites. Also getting a lot of value from it with the relic pistol.

Yeah they might nerf Shield, or they might realize they overdid the nerfs. Seriously what is up with that Incubi stratagem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

On Skyweavers sure, but people are acting like 3++ on Starweavers is a huge loss if you went Ynnari. I don't care about double move on it, prefer Fire and Fade, and a 3" spell just feels so unwieldy.

I do believe Skyweavers lose a lot by going Ynnari. Cegorach's Gaze is amazing, so are Sombre Sentinels and Fire and Fade.

Drager wrote:
Reavers we've discussed plenty, but are at about twice the effectiveness in Ynarri lists.

Why twice as effective?

Honestly i will never play Ynnari Skyweavers, Soaring Spite or FS (shooting vs melee) and a 3++ is very important.

You guys should look at Wraithseers, its something i want to try and might buy (I dont own one yet) but everything looks like you can make a really tanky version, now that its T8 and has Construct keyword, they seem almost a must for Ynnari (At least from a overlooking PoV)

The Wraithseer meme is so weird. Yes, you can make a tough single model unit, but it's not gonna do much.

After failure with Corsairs I don't believe in FW to even consider building anything with their models. And I am waiting for Ynnari FAQ, they just might cover Wraithseers there too.

karandrasss wrote:
The Wraithseer meme is so weird. Yes, you can make a tough single model unit, but it's not gonna do much.

It has 2 cannons with 3+/5++/5+++ takes 1/2 damage, T8, and powers, it will do something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadenuat wrote:
After failure with Corsairs I don't believe in FW to even consider building anything with their models. And I am waiting for Ynnar FAQ, they just might cover Wraithseers there too.

Just just faq it so its T8 and has wraith construct Keyword, i would argue its safe to use for awhile.

The meme doesn't work if you give it cannons. It won't be a 100pt wonder anymore. Even then, it can't fall back and shoot.

Drager wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

3++ is nice, but not massively necessary. And the double move is OK, but not better than hit better in combat, as getting there and not being very effective isn't great.

It is, however, substantially better than not getting there at all.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly i will never play Ynnari Skyweavers, Soaring Spite or FS (shooting vs melee) and a 3++ is very important.

You guys should look at Wraithseers, its something i want to try and might buy (I dont own one yet) but everything looks like you can make a really tanky version, now that its T8 and has Construct keyword, they seem almost a must for Ynnari (At least from a overlooking PoV)

We've discussed the Wraithseer a lot already. Go back a page or two. Ynnari Skyweavers are better at shooting AND better at combat than frozen stars. They are better at shooting than Soaring Spite except when advancing when they are very slightly worse.

Ynnari have Fire and Fade so you aren't losing that. I think the more accurate shooting and better melee generally make up for the other losses.

I've got a bit of an odd question. I'd like to use a Ynnari Farseer on foot (realised it's a good fit for an old model), ideally with Word of the Phoenix and Gaze of Ynnead.

Are there any good units for a foot Farseer to use Word of the Phoenix on?

Drager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly i will never play Ynnari Skyweavers, Soaring Spite or FS (shooting vs melee) and a 3++ is very important.

You guys should look at Wraithseers, its something i want to try and might buy (I dont own one yet) but everything looks like you can make a really tanky version, now that its T8 and has Construct keyword, they seem almost a must for Ynnari (At least from a overlooking PoV)

We've discussed the Wraithseer a lot already. Go back a page or two. Ynnari Skyweavers are better at shooting AND better at combat than frozen stars. They are better at shooting than Soaring Spite except when advancing when they are very slightly worse.

Ynnari have Fire and Fade so you aren't losing that. I think the more accurate shooting and better melee generally make up for the other losses.

I didnt see anything about math with it at all, off memory it was "its a good start" was the end of that convo and "its good for 100pts"

So unless i missed it, IDK what you are talking about, All i said was im reinforcing i like wraith build Ynnari better with a wraithseer to go with it.


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 Burnage wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

3++ is nice, but not massively necessary. And the double move is OK, but not better than hit better in combat, as getting there and not being very effective isn't great.

It is, however, substantially better than not getting there at all.

I cant remember the last time i use Double move honestly, 16" minimum move with a 24" gun, thats 40" and you can still advance and shoot. Not saying Ynnari is better or worst, just saying you dont need the double move.

 Burnage wrote:

Drager wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
You don't like 3++ and double move on your Skyweavers?

3++ is nice, but not massively necessary. And the double move is OK, but not better than hit better in combat, as getting there and not being very effective isn't great.

It is, however, substantially better than not getting there at all.

I don't find the double move is needed most of the time. Skyweavers don't need to hit combat T1 usually, the shooting is more important and Ynnari buffs that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Spoiler:

Drager wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly i will never play Ynnari Skyweavers, Soaring Spite or FS (shooting vs melee) and a 3++ is very important.

You guys should look at Wraithseers, its something i want to try and might buy (I dont own one yet) but everything looks like you can make a really tanky version, now that its T8 and has Construct keyword, they seem almost a must for Ynnari (At least from a overlooking PoV)

We've discussed the Wraithseer a lot already. Go back a page or two. Ynnari Skyweavers are better at shooting AND better at combat than frozen stars. They are better at shooting than Soaring Spite except when advancing when they are very slightly worse.

Ynnari have Fire and Fade so you aren't losing that. I think the more accurate shooting and better melee generally make up for the other losses.

I didnt see anything about math with it at all, off memory it was "its a good start" was the end of that convo and "its good for 100pts"

So unless i missed it, IDK what you are talking about, All i said was im reinforcing i like wraith build Ynnari better with a wraithseer to go with it.

Sorry if I misunderstood. The points you made seemed to me a rehash of the earlier discussion, probably a reading fail on my part. We talked about what relics and WL traits it can have and some builds that incorporate it.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Biel-Tan doesn't buff Aspects output really, unless they wield loads of Shuriken weaponry (which only 2 of them do). At least it doesn't do it in a straightforward manner. Eldar Codex logic.

Was referring to the relic, WL trait, and specifically the strat. Particularly when taking Banshees and psykers to buff them. It's not as direct and blatant a buff as Alaitoc, but Biel Tan is one of the better Craftworlds out there.

Biel Tan Bashees with Court of the Young King getting +5 to charge rolls, plus Quicken on a warlock with the Relic to reroll failed tests. And throwing an automatic 'Guide' using the WL trait on some Scat bikes or something. Not bad at all.

This isn't Ynarri specific, but it does involve Yvraine. I've been wondering how well we can smite spam with the various disciplines available to us. It seems we can do OK. Using Eldrad, Yvraine and a Shadowseer we can get ~12 Mortal Wounds a turn (failure to cast included in the averages). That's using Seer Council, but no other stats (no reroll etc.) and without Runes of the Farseer.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
Biel Tan Bashees with Court of the Young King getting +5 to charge rolls, plus Quicken on a warlock with the Relic to reroll failed tests. And throwing an automatic 'Guide' using the WL trait on some Scat bikes or something. Not bad at all.

That's a bit of an overkill, with a WS Banshees can do turn 1 charges just with Matchless Agility. Usually they are close enough to never fail a charge.

And yeah, Biel-Tan, if you use everything (trait, relic, stratagem) and take a lot of shuriken is not bad at all. But it leaves a lot of Aspects over the board so to speak. Biel-Tan Aspects aren't inherently better than other Aspects, like, say, Alaitoc Rangers when compared to any other Rangers. And aside from +2 Charge stratagem, they don't have anything specific for them like other units like Guardians, Rangers, etc.

Drager wrote:
This isn't Ynarri specific, but it does involve Yvraine. I've been wondering how well we can smite spam with the various disciplines available to us. It seems we can do OK. Using Eldrad, Yvraine and a Shadowseer we can get ~12 Mortal Wounds a turn (failure to cast included in the averages). That's using Seer Council, but no other stats (no reroll etc.) and without Runes of the Farseer.

I love our 2 Power (well 3 Power if Eldrad) Psykers (when compared to exploding Warlocks). Good amount of wounds, extra rules, and even some ability to fight in combat. So yeah, combining Eldrad, Yvraine and Shadowseer sounds awesome to me. It's kinda like running multiple Thousand Sons sorcs I guess.