As of the new Death Guard codex, GW has taken No Model = No Rules to its extreme conclusion

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**AngryAngel80**

Daedalus81 wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:

yeah, and people were asking for the exact opposite of what GW did. We wanted the kits to have all the weapons options, not the options to be stripped out.

Yea, man. I get it. You should be able to do that if you're crazy enough to tackle that project and GW might yet change its mind. But I do think it might be unfair to those without the same means to accomplish those conversions.

The horse left the barn a while ago with the mono-pose stuff. It seems to me that DG got the shaft in that regard, because a lot of other new kits haven't had that same treatment. GW may have had to push stylized out kits fast for the release of 8th.

I do not look forward to CSM Terminators and chain axes ( the lack of monopose may save them - we'll see soon enough I suppose ).

Where is it written it has to be fair in terms of capability ? I know plenty of people so rich they just toss money at any issue, even this game. I can't hope to keep up with all the variety and having like 3 of any unit in every configuration expertly painted for them. For them, this is no issue at all. If we all have the wargear options, we at least have the choice to scrounge up the bits, do the hobby work for our units and make them what we want. Equality of opportunity not equality of outcomes. I have been behind the 8 ball because I don't put limitless funds into the game but I have put in time and patience to search for those options I wanted, when I can.

Defending these dumb choices is really daft to me. They make the squad feel lame, it feels bad and it's overly penalizing for no reason other than someone feeling we are unable to find, get, craft or otherwise understand how to make the units we want. Disrespecting time, effort and desire. Like you still end up with two specials in 5-9 man squads, but it can't be the same one because, someone would feel bad I found another plasma and they didn't ? So why can't these same people get two boxes and and then run one with 2 blight launchers and one with 2 plasma at 7 man ? Is that really over the top amazing ?

It's a dumb idea they had, and people are right to be annoyed, me included.

I'm not posting to remove your right to be annoyed. I just oppose the histrionics and chicken little assertions paraded as fact.

This isn't the first some valid loadouts ( or models ) got axed and if they change them back it won't be the first time they do that, either.

In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.

Would the game be massively up-ended by PG PMs? I don't know. I don't have the book to process everything else it has.

I can see that 5 PMs with 3 PG creates a unit that is stupidly great. With Ferric Blight they'll be Intercessors that move and double tap ( bolters ) and have AP4 PGs. That unit would do 4 wounds to Primaris for 135 and Intercessors would do 1 back for 100 points. If Primaris had the same loadout they'd do just about the same damage as with bolters, so....yea. That isn't even considering 1/10 of the book.

So here's my prediction. This book is so fething cool and fun that literally no one is going to give a gak in a month.

I don't have 3 plasmas though. I have 2 in 7 man squads. This screws me and others up. As for implying you need expert skill to make combi plasmas you do not. I have done many for space wolf terminators using bolters and plasma pistols, not at all as expert difficult as it's being implied only the greenest of nooblet wouldn't be able to do so and make it look pretty good. As is, the rich gamer is still going to have the 2 plasmas in 7 man squads. I use the old plague models so metal and their champions didn't come with plasma guns. I know at least a couple other DG players in the same boat, I got plenty of new models without feeling I had to upgrade my old plague marines as well and spend extra hundreds and lots of time. Sorry if some think the joy of some new to the block guy overrides my own desire to keep what has been legal and not at all OP unit in the game. I highly doubt they give a crap of how op the set up is anyways.

So here is my prediction, you do not know me and I will give a gak long after this thread falls to dust. I will double give a gak if they make my scourges do the same thing and have a comically bad one of each of their own special weapons in a 5 man squad which would end up beyond terrible for a unit that is already not good and hasn't to my knowledge ever been an " OMG OP !!!! " Unit.

**kodos**

this topic is getting really interesting now

we have people argue about balance and that making it different is pay2win or cannot be done for the target group of players

the others are salty because the change is unexpected as they thought Nu-GW won't do that with a non-Marine faction

so stuff that was "nomal" for years is now impossible to do for the players and pay2win as well as the change of it was unexpected

did you guys all played a different 40k the past 20 years?

Unit loadouts being illegal with a new Codex because weapon options changed according to the box layout is nothing new and happens all the time (looking at my Space Wolve Scouts)

Same as people being angry about it and than buying the new Codex and some more models to change the units according to the rules

would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change

**Racerguy180**

kodos wrote:

would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change

Which is sad, since the entire point of GW is TO GET YOU TO BUY MORE MINIS, if your load out is no longer "legal"(whatever that means) & the only way for you to "fix the problem" is buying more minis....GW(according to them)seems to have done their job. As long as players throw $€£¥ @ them, it ain't gonna change. If all of the sudden, there are codexs sitting on the shelves and nobody is buying, maybe they'll get the hint.
As much as everyone would like to think they have an incentive to change based on emails, GW only understands $€£¥ and anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. Cuz if you send emails, but keep buying the product that you're dissatisfied with, you are just setting yourself up for failure.

**AngryAngel80**

kodos wrote:
this topic is getting really interesting now

we have people argue about balance and that making it different is pay2win or cannot be done for the target group of players

the others are salty because the change is unexpected as they thought Nu-GW won't do that with a non-Marine faction

so stuff that was "nomal" for years is now impossible to do for the players and pay2win as well as the change of it was unexpected

did you guys all played a different 40k the past 20 years?

Unit loadouts being illegal with a new Codex because weapon options changed according to the box layout is nothing new and happens all the time (looking at my Space Wolve Scouts)

Same as people being angry about it and than buying the new Codex and some more models to change the units according to the rules

would be really nice if all those who are now arguing how bad that thing is stop buying GW products to show them that they have done something wrong
but this won't happen and GW won't change

Well as is, I have written them and will call them to make formal complaint with voice. I won't be buying this codex unless this is seen to and that goes double for dark eldar if that is even more crazy dumb.

As is this feels like a really stupid time to try this when so few even are able to get into the game. Making them decide to wait and not buy just seems like a bad idea. Gives everyone all the time to just focus on the fact they are screwing the players, a touch more than usual.

As is the only reason I got any GW this last year was to support my FLGS which I know has been hit from all this vrius poo and lack of events.

Don't get me started on the wolf scouts though, did they change their load out options again this last supplement ?

**kodos**

not worth to buy in 9th at all for now as there are better games to play at home during lockdown and you also support your FLGS by buying those instead (bought the the Victrix Saxons just to support them and for a future use in SAGA or Kings of War)

**AngryAngel80**

kodos wrote:
not worth to buy in 9th at all for now as there are better games to play at home during lockdown and you also support your FLGS by buying those instead (bought the the Victrix Saxons just to support them and for a future use in SAGA or Kings of War)

Well I don't have a lot of games I'm keeping up with atm. Like I'm getting some attack wing stuff coming out later this month that has solo play. As well a couple things to shore up what I had set up for Armada.

Won't lie the game front for table top felt dry for a bit because of all this, had to turn to digital venues which just doesn't feel as good.

As side note any other games out there worth the time to look over ? Off topic, but maybe a slight detour should be ok for a question.

**kodos**

Mantic Deadzone, rules are free now as well as the supplement that includes the Solo Play rules, Starter Box is currently (again) out of stock but should be back soon (can use 40k minis though)

for comic fans, Walking Dead All out War or Hellboy, can be played Solo or co-op

if you want to play with family, X-Wing (core box only), Dreadball, BlitzBowl, are great as well

for historical/Napoleonic Travel Battle from Perry Miniature

or OnePage rules as substitute for 40k, yet might not be the bedt to play with family

**AngryAngel80**

I do still have edition one X wing and Attack wing which is basically X wing but star trek.

I'll check out the Deadzone stuff.

**Duskweaver**

“There will be no creativity, no enjoyment of the process of converting. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always - do not forget this, Winston - always there will be the intoxication of buying GW products, constantly increasing in price. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of new editions and new codexes to invalidate existing collections, the sensation of fleecing a customer who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine GW's boot stamping on someone's lovingly converted miniatures - forever.”

**AngryAngel80**

True and terrifying at the same.

**Not Online!!!**

it's a shame, GW built itself up upon actively encouraging conversion, kitbashes etc.

In many ways, GW has gained inertia, and now isn't beholden anymore due to their market position to apply the former custommer friendly policies.

**kirotheavenger**

Not Online!!! wrote:
it's a shame, GW built itself up upon actively encouraging conversion, kitbashes etc.

In many ways, GW has gained inertia, and now isn't beholden anymore due to their market position to apply the former custommer friendly policies.

Sadly this is exactly it.
GW doesn't need to attract customers, as customers attract each other.

**Wayniac**

So I just checked. This does affect me because while I built my Blightlords with combi-bolters and only a single combi-plasma, I've fielded two squads of 7 Plague Marines, one with 2 (3) plasma and one with two blight launchers, and had a third squad half assembled with two blight launchers and two flails. None of which are legal now in those specific combinations.

You know what? I still don't mind that it's changed even though I now need to scrounge up a few more plague Marines or swap around weapons. Which I'll probably do the latter for variety and I feel plasma and blight launchers have some synergy (I was already taking plasma on the champion anyway).

Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.

**Grimtuff**

You need Titan level shooting remove Morty? Good. He’s a fething daemon primarch...

**Tycho**

I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators.

I mean ... can we at least wait until the book actually comes out ...

This isn't the first some valid loadouts ( or models ) got axed and if they change them back it won't be the first time they do that, either.

In regards to fairness - the Blightlords kit has four regular combis. There is a fairly small percentage of folks who would buy jewler's saw and then have the knowledge to cast the bits from the sprue to get something that fits the model appropriately. In the present situation If a poor hobbyist buys Blightlords and a rich one buys them and has them painted - they're both still operating under the same guidelines where previously the rich hobbyist could afford the tools and knowledge it takes to make those conversions. I'm not asserting this to be GW's motive. It is just my own thought.

I do think you're massively underestimating the conversion market here. I've seen tons of combi-plas (both well made and also terrible) locally. I'd agree that it's not the first time we've been through something like this. I think what is rankling people (or at least why I'm bothered) is the fact that this is probably the first time GW has really addressed the "not enough options in the box" problem, and the answer is a resounding "we'll just change the rules because that's easier". Which does not bode well as a precedent. Additionally, the very last book DG got (War of the Spider) had a set up SPECIFICALLY FOR plasma terminators. You know, the book that was "designed with 9th in mind"

So to some, it kind of reads like "Convert all those plasmas for the Ferryman Plasma bomb now, because we know they'll not be legal in 9th and you'll have to re-buy them". It's fairly lame. Particularly since this looks to be another one of those "rules" where it really only effects Chaos ...

**Slipspace**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.

Ridiculous hot take aside, how does the fact a completely different unit in your Codex may be too good justify messing around with the PM options? People aren't even complaining that it's a nerf, necessarily, just that it's completely stupid on many different levels.

**Blackie**

Grimtuff wrote:
You need Titan level shooting remove Morty? Good. He’s a fething daemon primarch...

Make it cost like a Titan then.

**Grimtuff**

Blackie wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
You need Titan level shooting remove Morty? Good. He’s a fething daemon primarch...

Make it cost like a Titan then.

Do it, he should not be in 40k to begin with. But if you want daemonically souped up primarchs in your game, they’d best act like daemonically souped up primarchs and not some jamoke that can get blown off the table in one turn by the average IG platoon due to how cranked up damage output is in your game.

**RaptorusRex**

Duskweaver wrote:
“There will be no creativity, no enjoyment of the process of converting. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always - do not forget this, Winston - always there will be the intoxication of buying GW products, constantly increasing in price. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of new editions and new codexes to invalidate existing collections, the sensation of fleecing a customer who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine GW's boot stamping on someone's lovingly converted miniatures - forever.”

You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.

**VladimirHerzog**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.

damn dude, who pissed in your cheerios?

DG still don't have crazy offensive power, theyre tough as nails, which is normal. They SHOULD be tougher than custodes, theyre juiced up on chaos magic from the god of "my followers cant be killed" and the DG was already the most resilient legion before they fell to chaos (huffing chemicals that would kill most other astartes just for fun).

You want your bananas to be good? Attacking long time players of DG is super childlike. And before anyone goes "but you did the same with marine players", no, i didnt. I never attacked the players, only said that the codex was too strong.

**Daedalus81**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.

I mean...this is the wrong way to go about this.

Let's step back and think about things before jumping to conclusions ( apparently this is called white knighting ).

For Morty to get all his bells and whistles he needs a full DG army. No nurglings. No warptime. No primarch bros. At only 12" of movement it won't be hard to get in his way and he won't be getting buried deep into the enemy army as easily as before. He's not titanic and can't just walk out.

He's going to present a problem for a lot of lists and I can't assess all the details, but there's more to the picture than anyone has been capable of assessing properly at this point.

**kirotheavenger**

Is 12" slow now? Because in my mind that's still double the average.

**VladimirHerzog**

kirotheavenger wrote:
Is 12" slow now? Because in my mind that's still double the average.

its slower than the 24" he used to have because of warptime. Still, i think people are having a massive kneejerk reaction because of how tanky he is.

**Tycho**

He's going to present a problem for a lot of lists and I can't assess all the details, but there's more to the picture than anyone has been capable of assessing properly at this point.

It's especially silly considering it wasn't that long ago that no one took Morty because he'd get blown off the table turn 1. So many people are acting like he's been out here, single handedly winning GTs for ages, meanwhile, most people who own one, are likely to be removing a fine layer of dust off of theirs.

**Daedalus81**

kirotheavenger wrote:
Is 12" slow now? Because in my mind that's still double the average.

The problem becomes avoiding a suitable tarpit as well as fighting something worth his points. You don't want to spend 490 to have him sit on an objective and shoot a single shot ( now 12" ) each turn. If he can't leap what is in the way he might struggle to get the army into scoring position. I imagine the missions with 6 objectives will make it hard for him to make an impact if he winds up fighting junk.

But these are just casual thoughts and the picture might change when people really start to get into the book. He might be awesome just by kicking out the contagion early on. I haven't looked much at the spells yet so I don't know if much changed there, too.

**the_scotsman**

Boy oh boy what a funny coinkidink that you've got armies like DW out the door where Vets have options that aren't even in the freaking kit, but the second you get to a non-loyalist marine faction it's "EVERYTHINK BUT ZE KIT BUILD IST VERBOTEN!"

Cannot wait for my Drukhari codex now....yeah, looking forward to those "Updated" Lelith rules where she still can't kill a basic chainsword marine captain in combat, and those really great awesome Scourge rules...

For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a shredder
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a dark lance
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a haywire blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a splinter cannon

Anyone want to bet that Havocs get the same treatment but Devs still get to take 4x of the same gun :^)

**Duskweaver**

RaptorusRex wrote:
You and others being mildly inconvenienced is not like 1984.

Surely nobody could get upset at a light-hearted reference to a famous work of fiction. I mean, I could understand people being offended if I compared it to the Holocaust, or the Holodomor, or the Armenian Genocide or something like that, even if they recognised I wasn't being entirely serious. But nobody in their right mind would get all defensive and huffy at a reference to a novel. Right?

Clearly, I misunderestimated how humourless and uptight GW white knights can be.

“He gazed up at the enormous Space Marine. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark helmet. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Games Workshop.”

(Also, I'm not actually inconvenienced at all by this, as I don't play DG. I was going to start a DG army. But I'm not now. GW has lost some small amount of revenue from me. But that's all.)

"Oh dear! How sad! Never mind!"

**yukishiro1**

Wayniac wrote:

Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.

Haha, isn't this the greatest summary of why GW continues to thrive ever: "Yeah, it sucks, but only in the way that GW typically sucks. So I'm fine with it!"

Somehow they have managed to set expectations so low that they can continue to deliver on them, no matter how bad their behavior. It's a nifty trick.

**Slayer-Fan123**

yukishiro1 wrote:
Wayniac wrote:

Is it a gakky move? Sure it is. But not the end of the world. In fact it's pretty typical GW behavior since we are all reasonably certain that they design books in isolation with little or no communication between the writers to ensure consistent rules.

Haha, isn't this the greatest summary of why GW continues to thrive ever: "Yeah, it sucks, but only in the way that GW typically sucks. So I'm fine with it!"

Somehow they have managed to set expectations so low that they can continue to deliver on them, no matter how bad their behavior. It's a nifty trick.

And that people don't bother to fight back. It's a pathetic attitude from GW defenders, really.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Boy oh boy what a funny coinkidink that you've got armies like DW out the door where Vets have options that aren't even in the freaking kit, but the second you get to a non-loyalist marine faction it's "EVERYTHINK BUT ZE KIT BUILD IST VERBOTEN!"

Cannot wait for my Drukhari codex now....yeah, looking forward to those "Updated" Lelith rules where she still can't kill a basic chainsword marine captain in combat, and those really great awesome Scourge rules...

For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a shredder
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a dark lance
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a haywire blaster
For every 5 models in the unit one scourge may take a splinter cannon

Anyone want to bet that Havocs get the same treatment but Devs still get to take 4x of the same gun :^)

Yeah the defenders of this are all hypocrites.