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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.

You jest, but the last store owner literally told me "You'd be surprised what a good artist can do with just unused spru bits and glue." My response was" You'd be surprised what a gakky artist can do with a credit card and the internet". I don't understand people who want to rip off a company, but I also don't understand all the White Knighting going on right now for a Corporation that doesn't care about them, AT ALL. Then again, this is Corporate Theory and FOMO 101.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
...They have a policy, that means jack unless the policy makes them carbon-neutral or better. I don't just mean technically carbon neutral either, I mean from the harvesting of raw materials to the point where they ship goods to a store I want 0 net carbon emissions from them and every other company. If they can't do that their policy means jack all and simply isn't doing enough to stop the runaway heating of our planet...

Do you buy carbon offsets for 3d printed minis?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Just be sure to make it out of cardboard from GW miniature boxes and held together by a framework of GW sprue, that way it is legitimately a conversion made from 100% GW product.

You jest, but the last store owner literally told me "You'd be surprised what a good artist can do with just unused spru bits and glue." My response was" You'd be surprised what a gakky artist can do with a credit card and the internet". I don't understand people who want to rip off a company, but I also don't understand all the White Knighting going on right now for a Corporation that doesn't care about them, AT ALL. Then again, this is Corporate Theory and FOMO 101.

I don't want to rip off anybody. I want my share of the money that companies suck from the public and funnel into the pockets of shareholders. If companies weren't stealing from the people we'd have so much disposable income we'd not have to consider redressing the balance via the means available to us.

I share your desire for carbon neutral companies. It is something that largely has to come from government though. People will steer the ship until guard rails are put in - no matter what you do they will seek enjoyment and fulfilment in whatever means are available, because, well...they're human.

And had they not gone public they may never have escaped the bounds of the United Kingdom and may well have passed from memory before now. The world isn't a simple construct with easy answers to problems.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
...I don't want to rip off anybody. I want my share of the money that companies suck from the public and funnel into the pockets of shareholders. If companies weren't stealing from the people we'd have so much disposable income we'd not have to consider redressing the balance via the means available to us.

I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do you buy carbon offsets for 3d printed minis?

I don't buy 3d printed minis, but as I live in an area where we get our energy from hydroelectric dams with a fixed carbon cost, I'd only have to worry about the footprint of the materials and the printer. I also absolve the consumer of the carbon costs of shipping such items as well as extracting the materials for them as we have no practical alternative to bypass such methods due to the current state of the world and the capitalist states that govern it.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Do you buy carbon offsets for 3d printed minis?

I don't buy 3d printed minis, but as I live in an area where we get our energy from hydroelectric dams with a fixed carbon cost, I'd only have to worry about the footprint of the materials and the printer. I also absolve the consumer of the carbon costs of shipping such items as well as extracting the materials for them as we have no practical alternative to bypass such methods due to the current state of the world and the capitalist states that govern it.

...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?

Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment. This is a cost passed down by companies to every single person on the planet and a cost that no company can or will pay as the articles I've posted above have shown that these companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to fix the damage their existance causes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?

Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.

They can also release their IP into the public domain, dissolve the company, and leave their physical assets to the workers.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
...Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment...

Why "you"? Is the environment "yours"? If you computed the absolute amount of damage GW does to "the environment" and then divided it across the population of the planet how much are they really "stealing" from "you"?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm not following. If you don't give any money to GW why do you get a share of anything they "suck" from anyone else? If you do give money to GW surely you could get your share back from them by not giving them money instead?

Even if I never engaged with a GW product they've stolen from me via the unpaid for damage their business does to the environment. This is a cost passed down by companies to every single person on the planet and a cost that no company can or will pay as the articles I've posted above have shown that these companies wouldn't be profitable if they had to fix the damage their existance causes.

What about the damage the company who makes your 3d printer and computer that runs ( perhaps the very same one you post from now ) it does? The rare earth metals come from exploited resources. Have you atoned for these or are you communicating through some unknown technology?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?

Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.

You could choose to buy carbon offsets for the stuff you buy, but you've absolved yourself of that responsibility so you can insist it's other peoples' job to figure out the environment. Do you operate in a "neutral state" where your costs are equal to your income?


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 Canadian 5th wrote:
...They can also release their IP into the public domain, dissolve the company, and leave their physical assets to the workers.

Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why "you"? Is the environment "yours"? If you computed the absolute amount of damage GW does to "the environment" and then divided it across the population of the planet how much are they really "stealing" from "you"?

The current cost of fighting climate change is estimated to be ~$5 trillion per year. This ignores things such as the extinction of both flora and fauna, irreversible desertification in places like Africa, wars for profit, the inflation rates that have caused the costs of education and housing to inflate at rates that haven't matched wages, and many other ills that would be nearly impossible to properly price. GW isn't the sole offender nor the worst but we shouldn't give a pass to a petty thief just because they aren't a murderer.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...Does GW have a practical alternative to bypass the carbon costs of getting raw materials or shipping them places?

Yes. As a multibillion-dollar corporation, they could choose to invest more heavily in a green shipping and resource extraction pipeline. They could operate in a neutral state - costs equal to income - rather than one of ever-increasing profits and use the extra money to get as close to green as possible. This option is one open to every profitable company and one that they must be encouraged to use until such a time as they can be run sustainably.

You could choose to buy carbon offsets for the stuff you buy, but you've absolved yourself of that responsibility so you can insist it's other peoples' job to figure out the environment. Do you operate in a "neutral state" where your costs are equal to your income?

Why do you feel the need to try and defend a £3b+ company that couldn't give less of a flying faeces about you?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
What about the damage the company who makes your 3d printer and computer that runs ( perhaps the very same one you post from now ) it does? The rare earth metals come from exploited resources. Have you atoned for these or are you communicating through some unknown technology?

There is no ethical consumption under capitalism and thus we must absolve the consumer from the effects of their consumption. If there were ethical alternatives then I would feel obligated to use them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
...Why do you feel the need to try and defend a £3b+ company that couldn't give less of a flying faeces about you?

I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"

There will be issues with returning the means of production to the masses but it's a better solution than shrugging and writing pages of apologia for companies that only exist to sell products and extract wealth from the economy.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why do you feel the need to try and defend a £3b+ company that couldn't give less of a flying faeces about you?

Because you think it is defending a company when in reality it is discussing bad logic and bad faith arguments.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
...There is no ethical consumption under capitalism...

Why are you expecting GW to be an ethical consumer of plastic products/transportation services, then?


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 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Seems an odd decision to leave the physical assets to the workers while also dramatically devaluing the physical assets they're leaving to the workers. A bit of a "screw you!" alongside "here's some injection moulding machines!"

There will be issues with returning the means of production to the masses but it's a better solution than shrugging and writing pages of apologia for companies that only exist to sell products and extract wealth from the economy.

What are the workers going to do with the means of production other than extracting wealth from the economy? If there is no economy to extract wealth from why do the workers need injection-moulding machines? They're kind of hard to eat.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?

Why is existing as a for-profit planet-destroying entity not seen for the insanity that it is? Humanity doesn't have to live this way and has, in fact, done so for only a very short time and yet we have people who act as if this is the natural way of things.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm not defending GW, I'm attacking Canadian 5th. GW deserves to be attacked for a tremendous litany of reasons, but "their IP is irrelevant because they're not carbon-neutral/make any profit!" is just stupid. I'm not carbon-neutral, does that mean you can copy anything I write without crediting me with impunity?

Why is existing as a for-profit planet-destroying entity not seen for the insanity that it is? Humanity doesn't have to live this way and has, in fact, done so for only a very short time and yet we have people who act as if this is the natural way of things.

"Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" is a philosophical position, sure. Where I'm losing you is getting from "Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" to "I deserve free toys!"

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why are you expecting GW to be an ethical consumer of plastic products/transportation services, then?

Because they are not an entity, they are a system designed to maximize profits and minimize costs for the express purpose of providing a select few people with as much excess value as they can extract. Such systems can and should be required to do no harm if they wish to continue their existance.

What are the workers going to do with the means of production other than extracting wealth from the economy? If there is no economy to extract wealth from why do the workers need injection-moulding machines? They're kind of hard to eat.

Injection moulding can be used to make many things that aren't little plastic mean and if not they can always be recycled or simply left to lay fallow while the workers are placed on UBI and paid for not participating in actions that destroy the world.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
"Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" is a philosophical position, sure. Where I'm losing you is getting from "Capitalism is inherently planet-destroying!" to "I deserve free toys!"

If the planet is going to burn and companies are going to play the fiddle why should the common man be denied what pleasures he can have?

 Canadian 5th wrote:
...Injection moulding can be used to make many things that aren't little plastic mean and if not they can always be recycled or simply left to lay fallow while the workers are placed on UBI and paid for not participating in actions that destroy the world.

You know, I'm usually the last person to bring this up, I welcome disagreement and alternative opinions, but really, man (/person), why are you here on a wargaming forum trying to convince people that making plastic toy soldiers is destroying the world? Surely there's a more receptive audience somewhere.


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 Canadian 5th wrote:
...If the planet is going to burn and companies are going to play the fiddle why should the common man be denied what pleasures he can have?

...Your pleasures exist because of capitalism. Or at least the plastic toy soldiers do.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You know, I'm usually the last person to bring this up, I welcome disagreement and alternative opinions, but really, man (/person), why are you here on a wargaming forum trying to convince people that making plastic toy soldiers is destroying the world? Surely there's a more receptive audience somewhere.

Because I enjoy the game and the discussions around it, the same as all of you.

...Your pleasures exist because of capitalism. Or at least the plastic toy soldiers do.

Indeed and I could do as well without them. Especially given that the last new models I purchased would have come pre 2010, everything since then has come used and much of that for free.

Sure. Great. The relentless barrage of dogma has been fun, but I'm from Seattle, I get kookier anti-capitalists than you in my breakfast cereal and they all understand economics and intellectual property better than you do. Have fun trying to convince the rest of Dakka that ripping off GW specifically is a righteous crusade to reign in the excesses of capitalism, I'm out.

Lets get back on topic or let the thread be locked maybe?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Sure. Great. The relentless barrage of dogma has been fun, but I'm from Seattle, I get kookier anti-capitalists than you in my breakfast cereal and they all understand economics and intellectual property better than you do. Have fun trying to convince the rest of Dakka that ripping off GW specifically is a righteous crusade to reign in the excesses of capitalism, I'm out.

Fare thee well. I tip my hat to you.

Are YOU carbon-neutral, 5th?

Canadian 5th derails a thread w/odd non sequitur ... must be a day that ends in y ...

So anywho - ‘bout them demons - anyone know if we can summon them? Seems odd that they apparently got removed. I’m fine with summoning from the demon codex if we have to, but if we lost summoning on top of me having to redo my carefully converted BLs, I’m gonna be seriously bummed.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are YOU carbon-neutral, 5th?

As a private citizen that would likely be impossible. Even if I were to go and live in the woods as a subsistence hunter this isn't something everybody can do as the planet simply cannot sustain us doing so, we demand more efficiency than nature itself can provide. This is the crux of why there cannot be ethical consumption under capitalism, the issue is so vast that it is beyond the scope of any individual to change.

Tycho wrote:
Canadian 5th derails a thread w/odd non sequitur ... must be a day that ends in y ...

So anywho - ‘bout them demons - anyone know if we can summon them? Seems odd that they apparently got removed. I’m fine with summoning from the demon codex if we have to, but if we lost summoning on top of me having to redo my carefully converted BLs, I’m gonna be seriously bummed.

I didn't even start the debate about recasts nor was I the first to call out the ethics of such.

As for the daemon summoning, I don't know one way or the other but I hope it both stayed and doesn't break any army bonuses for being used if it did stay. As always I'm for options where they can be accomodated.

@Canadian 5th This is hilarious, what an unbelievably stupid take. GW's supposed emissions in no way justifies stealing their IP and selling it for a profit. The planet is not your property being stolen from you and reason for you to get free stuff. Also workers sell their labor for money, nothing is stolen.

And just to be clear, I buy recasts of oop stuff. It's a service issue on GWs part if they won't sell it anymore and I'll get it wherever I can.