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It’s not as much about the 7 to a box.

It’s the ridiculous wargear restrictions.

Even if that is the way you want to design your game leaving other factions free to min max their equipment is a pretty terrible decision.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what about the fluff player that decided five Combi-Flamers?

Have you seen/build the actual model?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what about the fluff player that decided five Combi-Flamers?

Tough, they have to suffer to minimize spamming. It's sad, but the fluff player will most likely have less of a raging fit than the competitive one.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s not as much about the 7 to a box.

It’s the ridiculous wargear restrictions.

I assume the idea here is there's the 3-man group as well, which gives you 10 and then lets you take a second one of most weapons.

This also will slow down the game because of all of the different weapon profiles that need to be rolled for

 l0k1 wrote:
This also will slow down the game because of all of the different weapon profiles that need to be rolled for

Now that is a legit problem.

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

Except people who want to customize their guys and have it represented on the tabletop.

They have to convince others to allow homebrew now... or play as Loyalist Marines.

 Eldarain wrote:
Even if that is the way you want to design your game leaving other factions free to min max their equipment is a pretty terrible decision.

Yup. Different design philosophy for different codexes. Not an even playing field.

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

No, you have never been able to min/max a unit from just one box. However, "only need to buy one box to create a unit". One box always contains enough models to create a 5 man unit.


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Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

And, sure. Make that the standard. But that is NOT the case for the new marine codex.

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

So you think it would be "easier for everyone" if instead of rolling for 5 chainaxes for my chaos terminators I had to roll for 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 chainaxe, and 1 power maul?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

So you think it would be "easier for everyone" if instead of rolling for 5 chainaxes for my chaos terminators I had to roll for 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 chainaxe, and 1 power maul?

Unless you're some cutthroat gamer, sure. I don't see any issue with it. I'll take it over people mathing out the "best" weapon and spamming the gak out of it any day of the week. It's clear that is not how the designers intend for you to build a squad, so now they are stopping you from being able to do it.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So what about the fluff player that decided five Combi-Flamers?

Have you seen/build the actual model?

I'm one of the people that ran Termicide but with 4 Khorne Terminators and all Combi-Flamers for 7th. I spoke up about the Chaos Terminator entry that was created in 8th and I DEFINITELY spoke up about the contents of the box (which now has a precedent to make Chaos Terminators suffer the same fate as Blightlords).

You're not thinking outward and it clearly shows.


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Wayniac wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

So you think it would be "easier for everyone" if instead of rolling for 5 chainaxes for my chaos terminators I had to roll for 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 chainaxe, and 1 power maul?

Unless you're some cutthroat gamer, sure. I don't see any issue with it. I'll take it over people mathing out the "best" weapon and spamming the gak out of it any day of the week. It's clear that is not how the designers intend for you to build a squad, so now they are stopping you from being able to do it.

Man, imagine simping for GW this hard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man, imagine simping for GW this hard.

Imaging being so riled up that you can't minmax and metagame everything for once.

Wayniac wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

When it comes to 5 man units, all boxes (not the tiny ETB boxes, granted) have always been enough to "create a unit".

I mean there are some exceptions since you never get all the options. Which is what I really have no issue with. Since they refuse to give you say 5 of each combi-weapon, just get rid of allowing you to take 5 of the same. Makes it easier for everyone.

So you think it would be "easier for everyone" if instead of rolling for 5 chainaxes for my chaos terminators I had to roll for 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 chainaxe, and 1 power maul?

Unless you're some cutthroat gamer, sure. I don't see any issue with it. I'll take it over people mathing out the "best" weapon and spamming the gak out of it any day of the week. It's clear that is not how the designers intend for you to build a squad, so now they are stopping you from being able to do it.

It sucks if you want you marines to look and feel like a unit of traind soldiers(even if full of puss) That work as if they had the foresight and planing before they turn up on the battlefield.

It probably also had little to do with the rules design, and was just a kit we have to work with issues. And other than that its just poor design as it can slow the game.

Wayniac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man, imagine simping for GW this hard.

Imaging being so riled up that you can't minmax and metagame everything for once.

How is four Combi-Flamers and the Plague Spewer minmaxing and metagame?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So you think it would be "easier for everyone" if instead of rolling for 5 chainaxes for my chaos terminators I had to roll for 1 chainfist, 1 power sword, 1 power axe, 1 chainaxe, and 1 power maul?

An extreme version of my concern, but I do agree with Gadzilla666.

One of the motivators for my me kitting out so many heavy/special weapons for my CSM/Havocs was for simplicity not optimization. Eldar logistics stealing or not, one of the things I like about Primaris is their squads are armed with the same weapon. I haven't and don't generally plan on in the future of playing 40k all that frequently or with the same army (I'm coming up on 4 of them). While I like generalist squads in principle, I don't really care about to divide up their shooting and/or roll different dice pools to resolve their attacks. I just want to roll a bunch of them all at once and move to my next activation. Because one of the things I dislike about Primaris is shooting the Repulsor. It is such a hassle.

So I went out of my way to build my CSM/Havocs so that I can reduce the mechanics of resolving a bunch of different attacks. I was planning on doing it with my Chaos Terminators in due time because I did build them with a bunch of different weapons when I first started and found them to be pain to resolve even with squads of three. Now I am not going to say, I'm not doing this blind to the idea of making my army more powerful. I know it does. Warhammer 40k wants to run for varied armed squads they can try to tempt me with rules to do so. I still probably won't as I am looking for ease-of-use over power. That's just where I am as a gamer.

Ultimately, I am not overly concerned about my CSM army. I think it is still very possible they will keep most of the weapon options they have had over the editions as the faction has more inertia than Death Guard had. If that turns out not to be the case, I see what adjustments I can make to see make use of the models I have. I am still rather unhappy with how Death Guard been mixed up because a friend of mine just started full 40k last year before the lock down and only managed 2-3 games with his army. He already has to buy a new codex. His army was very much a Typhus and Poxwalker horde and did have a bunch of characters in it as the collection was like 2-3 Dark Imperium boxes with some bits and bobs added on. I don't really want him to feel like he has to spend even more to get something workable at 2000pts again.

Let's compare to the old one.



First line is basically the same, but the weapon is different
Second is the same
Third is the same
Fourth has been split - instead of two models with any option you get one BL and one spewer
-- Then there is a clause to allow two in ten models
-- The remainder of the fourth line was limited to one model with the remaining 3 options, but limiting it as well to 10 models
Fifth line has been nerfed to 1-in-5 four double plague knife
Sixth and Seventh have been split to prevent overpacking in 5 mans like above
Eighth has been limited to a boltgun model

So what actually changed was the bannerman, access to plague knives, and the amount of weapons you can pack into a 5 man.

Considering the new rules this was necessary. It isn't significantly different than it was before and people are out of their minds, because they've probably never even looked at the old datasheet.

3 Plasmaguns in a 10 man with +1 to hit and exploding unmod 6s from a Tallyman. Flail and knife now push 6 attacks each so preventing stacking them on top of strats they have like no wasted damage might be kind of foolish. Considering they run 3A unconditionally like marines on top of all their other rules makes setting this unit up correctly crucial.

So...chill out, yea?

The tabletop simulator chads just keep on winning bros, it's not fair.

The more I tthinka bout this, it's not really a nerf. It's actually pretty good unless you were one of the people spamming a single weapon.

You could take in a 10-man squad:

* 2 plasma guns AND 2 blight launchers, plus a plasma on the champion.

* 2 plague spewers and 2 plague belchers

* 2 flails of corruption AND 2 plague cleavers.

That is not a nerf at all Just what you can't do is take all the guys with one of the melee weapons (axe I think was popular)

now Blightlords yes it's a nerf you can't spam combi-plasma.

I think this is very crappy of GW to do. If they had done it when the new kits came out it would have sucked but also been in line with the upsides others have mentioned. Making the change now, after people have had three years to build and paint loadouts that are now invalidated? Awful. It is one thing to invalidate old wargear loadouts when a new kit is released, indeed sometimes that can even be a good thing, but this is much different.

It is the sheer stupidity of the chapter-house mentality in full force, which never even worked or had a benefit in the first place. If anything I am more likely to want third-party upgrades/miniatures because then if the loadout changes they were already counts-as anyways.

And really, what does GW gain here? Is it worth pissing off so many customers?

Wayniac wrote:
The more I tthinka bout this, it's not really a nerf. It's actually pretty good unless you were one of the people spamming a single weapon.

You could take in a 10-man squad:

* 2 plasma guns AND 2 blight launchers, plus a plasma on the champion.

* 2 plague spewers and 2 plague belchers

* 2 flails of corruption AND 2 plague cleavers.

That is not a nerf at all Just what you can't do is take all the guys with one of the melee weapons (axe I think was popular)

now Blightlords yes it's a nerf you can't spam combi-plasma.

TIL wanting your units to have a focus instead of being forced to have a worthless mishmash of weapons is "spamming". I bet you also think taking a Devastator squad with 4 Lascannons to act as an anti-tank unit rather than taking 1 Lascannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile Launcher, and 1 Plasma Cannon is also "spam".

Also, Death Guard Terminators have been able to take multiple Combi-Plasma for years if not decades. This change makes units some people have had for years or decades unable to be used, all because of corporate greed. GW have a market value of £3b. They don't need you to defend them.

Wayniac wrote:
The more I tthinka bout this, it's not really a nerf. It's actually pretty good unless you were one of the people spamming a single weapon.

You could take in a 10-man squad:

* 2 plasma guns AND 2 blight launchers, plus a plasma on the champion.

* 2 plague spewers and 2 plague belchers

* 2 flails of corruption AND 2 plague cleavers.

That is not a nerf at all Just what you can't do is take all the guys with one of the melee weapons (axe I think was popular)

now Blightlords yes it's a nerf you can't spam combi-plasma.

That's quite an expensive unit. You could counter balance it by taking a unit of Poxwalkers to fill a cheap 2nd troop choice, but you'll dump a huge amount of points in Troops and not have much left for elites, heavies, or fast attacks.

Is the option still available for one model to carry both a mace and a bubotic axe for extra attacks?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Man, imagine simping for GW this hard.

Imaging being so riled up that you can't minmax and metagame everything for once.

How is four Combi-Flamers and the Plague Spewer minmaxing and metagame?

I saw people using certain loadouts for theme or specialization as much as for min-maxing. Especially because points change and what was good may only remain so a short period. If the goal was to penalize optimization points changes would be the logical way of doing so. You know what I have never seen someone do? Run 1 of each weapon option. Making a unit 'jack of all trades' like that rarely pays off as compared to skewing loadouts towards a certain specialty, and more importantly people just do not want to deal with the hassle of remembering/rolling that many different weapons.

Wayniac wrote:
Unless you're some cutthroat gamer, sure. I don't see any issue with it. I'll take it over people mathing out the "best" weapon and spamming the gak out of it any day of the week. It's clear that is not how the designers intend for you to build a squad, so now they are stopping you from being able to do it.

it adds time to the game unecessarily, people dont only take units with a single loadout because its optimal, they do it because it saves time, and its also more logical.

I built my night lords termis with Lightning claw + combiflamer, tell me i'm minmaxing.


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Wayniac wrote:
Imaging being so riled up that you can't minmax and metagame everything for once.

imagine missing the whole premise of the complaint....

Imagine the rage if this happened to loyalists.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Imagine the rage if this happened to loyalists.

I want to see the people defending it field so many crazy things:

the crisis team on the GW website 1: 2 fusion blasters, 1: plasma and missile pod, 1: just a burst cannon
Catachan heavy weapons team: one mortar, one lascannon, one heavy bolter.
Devastators: missile launcher, heavy bolter, lascannon, grav cannon
War Walkers and vipers with just a random array of junk: missile launcher and scatter laser (actually pictured), shuriken cannon and bright lance, etc.

Its obviously ok and 'intended' so they must be building their own units that way, right? I'm sure they've got pictures.

Having each model with a different weapon looks like gak, works like gak ingame, and it makes everything slower.

Having one guy with a special or heavy weapon is fine. Having the champ with a cool weapon is fine. Forcing everybody to have a different weapon with completely different uses is Kharadron levels stupid. I'm sad GW is expanding that slowed aproach.