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That is some crazy gak. I would see this as "testing the waters" and suggest that if you think this is dumb you send them a mail to let them know so they know it was a bad idea.

I would bet this is from some middle manager who thinks this idea is GENIUS and won't listen to reason about it.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Except you need two boxes to get 10 models, as the kit only comes with 7 (for the price of 10).

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

And once you've bought the second box, you have four left over which you now can't use due to reduced max unit size.

Well, I suppose you can sell three of those four models to someone else with one box looking to increase to 10.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is terrible GW made a terrible decision and everyone needs to Email them telling them so.

What's their email for this kinda thing?

Because I wholeheartedly agree.

Custserv@gwplc.com

Uk.custserv@gwplc.com for uk.

Nope. Feedback on the rules goes to 40kfaq@gwplc.com

Except this isn’t about rules, it’s about company policy and the dangerous precedent it sets. It might pertain to rules, but that is the tangential issue of what this change represents, so customer service.

It looks like my friend that plays Death Guard is going to have to borrow some of my Death Guard kill team to fill out his army for a while. I figured he was going to want to every now again, but I figured it would be for special/heavy weapons not regular Plague Marines. I feel bad for him on a couple of levels. He also has a Poxwalker heavy army.

For me, it is also disconcerting what this could mean for my CSM army. I went heavy into getting Havocs as I wanted 4 of each weapon option just to mix and match various lists. That, and I really wanted heavy bolter Havocs but couldn't bring myself to build them until I had the more pressing heavy weapons available. I had also finally kitbashed some stripped-down Havoc champions (no special weapon).

Since I had the bits, I also created three of every heavy/special ranged weapon for my CSM save the chaingun (still have one) and combi-weapons (also have one). I was looking forward to trying out more than just heavy bolters (as good as they are) which was all I fielded before. It would definitely be a shame if I have to jump through extra hoops to field these models. I don't want too, but I could probably make a good number of my CSM with the SM codex as largely stick to spiky versions of marines anyways. Really the only difference would be extra-big bases the Havocs have. I don't really want to do that though.

I agree that I think GW has over-extended this no model, no rule thing. It is annoying to both those that did make models for these options and just figuring out what data sheets allow anymore.

Very disappointing, especially in this specific case. They JUST came out with a set of DG singles, most of which are Plague Marines. And the 5 man set from the 8E starter and two different 3 packs are also pretty recent releases.Who buys those just to have them, rather than to mix and match?

I'll definitely send an email. And if this is the start of a trend, and the Tau suits/Admech infantry etc can only have one of each gun, I will seriously consider cutting my losses.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
If this design decision follows through with the Chaos Space Marines codex, I am excited to see the 2 page Chaos Terminator entry explaining how every 5 models can have 1 model with X, Y, or Z, 1 model with A, B, or C, so on and so forth.

Terminators,...

How about the basic CSM instead.. neither enough close combat equipment NOR enough boltguns...

Also one melta / plasma / Flamer + HB / Rocket launcher... Great squad design....

So, no more lascannons, combi-weapons for the aspiring champion, reaper chaincannons, ....no more autocannons.

So much for rules supporting kit bashing and customisation.

Autocannons will likely stick, since the start collecting CSM monopose squad has a autocannon.

Ork nobz may lose kustom shootas, because there aren't any. They'll be warboss/meganob only (if they take this absurd 'what's in the kit' rules approach further). Which is shame, because they're nice and cheap for a shoota boyz nob, rather than a dimwit hanging about with a slugga.

Really does show that they want consumers, not hobbyists that will do their own thing with the materials. Be a customer, take what you're given, don't be creative.

I won't lie, DG are so stupidly powerful now with their stock weapons, strats, and abilities, that kavetching about not getting all the weapons you had before seems, odd. This just leapfrogged the SM codex for sheer killiness, and even pimp slaps the Custodes for survivability. But sure, you can't take the gun from 7th-8th, that's whats important.

Deathwatch are pretty loadout fluid in the proteus killteams. I'm not saying this to detract from the complaints y'all have about how a lot of stuff has been going, but to provide a possible avenue to explore if you're craving that "MY guys, not GW's guys" feel.

If you think this is an argument about the relative power of factions, I would say you have misunderstood the point of what people are saying.
Edit: In reply to Fezzik.

ryzouken wrote:
Deathwatch are pretty loadout fluid in the proteus killteams. I'm not saying this to detract from the complaints y'all have about how a lot of stuff has been going, but to provide a possible avenue to explore if you're craving that "MY guys, not GW's guys" feel.

Won't help allay the concerns of people who feel like GW has cranked up the "Problem? Try playing Loyalists!" approach to game design since 2.0

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie, DG are so stupidly powerful now with their stock weapons, strats, and abilities, that kavetching about not getting all the weapons you had before seems, odd. This just leapfrogged the SM codex for sheer killiness, and even pimp slaps the Custodes for survivability. But sure, you can't take the gun from 7th-8th, that's whats important.

It really has nothing to do with that, it's more about consistency.

LSM Devastators are not limited to 2 of each Weapon, Vanguard Vets have no limitations (including I believe being able to take certain wargear that isn't even on the sprue?), Retributors are not limited to 2 of each weapon, Necron Overlords have 3 wargear options that don't come with any Overlord model that GW actually sells.

It's not about balance either because have you seen Retributors or Vanguard Vets recently?

Yeah, if this is going to be the way it works going forward then it is REALLY WEIRD that it was not in the first two codices this edition.

And if it is not going to be how it is going forward, then it is even weirder that they randomly decided to do this for Death Guard.

Slipspace wrote:


I don't see how this is better at all. That list is ridiculously wordy and complicated. What's the problem with allowing the loadout in the box to be legal but also allowing flexibility to build squads more freely? If I'm paying points for it, there's no reason you need to restrict a Bubotic Axe, for example, to one in every 5 models. Also, the picture is a bit difficult to read, but does this mean you can't have 2 Blight Launchers in a squad now?

Bubotic Axe was just some random example here right?
Cause i read it that you can have any number of axes with the Blightlords.

Also, 2 Blight Launchers if you have 10 models.
Otherwise you could still go for 3 Plasma and 2 Blight Launchers with 10 Plague Marines.


Overall i think its not too bad. Minor thing is i have too many Plague Marines with Blight Launchers now because i got enough to play 2 BL in squads of 5.
Most players have a few boxes + easy to build + special models anyway to mix and match and rarely play all of their marines.
So if you have lets say 30 PM most combinations still work.

I feel bad for the people who build and painted 10 Blightlord Terminators with Combiplasma though.

 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, if this is going to be the way it works going forward then it is REALLY WEIRD that it was not in the first two codices this edition.

And if it is not going to be how it is going forward, then it is even weirder that they randomly decided to do this for Death Guard.

I think I understand the rationale for the latter. Plague Marines have an almost uniquely terrible datasheet (a full page entry for basic marines, mostly because they filled that sprue with gak and filled it all in, rather than just hand-waving 'plague weapons' regardless of shape, and going with one type of 'plague flamer'). For other factions, we've increasingly seen a split between melee and ranged units in separate datasheets (oblits and maulers, assault and devastator centurions, assault and regular intercessors, etc, etc). Even tau separate their 'breachers' from their 'fire warriors.' So I could potentially see this as a (very poor) attempt to clean this up.

I honestly hope we don't see this again.

On the other hand, I suspect we will see the 'paradigm shift' for psychic powers continuing with future books (you get a better version of several powers if you overcast by 3 or more), and I expect that will make loyalists salty. Except (or especially) if dark angels get this approach too.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is terrible GW made a terrible decision and everyone needs to Email them telling them so.

What's their email for this kinda thing?

Because I wholeheartedly agree.

Custserv@gwplc.com

Uk.custserv@gwplc.com for uk.

Nope. Feedback on the rules goes to 40kfaq@gwplc.com

Except this isn’t about rules, it’s about company policy and the dangerous precedent it sets. It might pertain to rules, but that is the tangential issue of what this change represents, so customer service.

I would still say that the Rules team would be in a better place to give this feedback to the corporate bigwigs (or whomever is responsible) and would be more likely to lend their support as well.

What's your definition of "most"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and here's the BRILLIANT Blightlord datasheet. SURE you can't have 4 Combi-Plasmas in the same squad, but look! You can take one of each! So amazing!

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
This is terrible GW made a terrible decision and everyone needs to Email them telling them so.

What's their email for this kinda thing?

Because I wholeheartedly agree.

Custserv@gwplc.com

Uk.custserv@gwplc.com for uk.

Nope. Feedback on the rules goes to 40kfaq@gwplc.com

Except this isn’t about rules, it’s about company policy and the dangerous precedent it sets. It might pertain to rules, but that is the tangential issue of what this change represents, so customer service.

I would still say that the Rules team would be in a better place to give this feedback to the corporate bigwigs (or whomever is responsible) and would be more likely to lend their support as well.

There's nothing stopping anyone from emailing them both.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie, DG are so stupidly powerful now with their stock weapons, strats, and abilities, that kavetching about not getting all the weapons you had before seems, odd. This just leapfrogged the SM codex for sheer killiness, and even pimp slaps the Custodes for survivability. But sure, you can't take the gun from 7th-8th, that's whats important.

Yeah, DG sure will outlive the Custodes.Especially now that DG lost FNP. XD
-1D is not as good as a universal 2+ armour, 4+ inv and "1+ armour" and 3+ inv with shields.

Don't forget Custodes still don't have their codex yet. I'm willing to gaurantee they'll get some tasty point cuts.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie, DG are so stupidly powerful now with their stock weapons, strats, and abilities, that kavetching about not getting all the weapons you had before seems, odd. This just leapfrogged the SM codex for sheer killiness, and even pimp slaps the Custodes for survivability. But sure, you can't take the gun from 7th-8th, that's whats important.

Yeah, DG sure will outlive the Custodes.Especially now that DG lost FNP. XD
-1D is not as good as a universal 2+ armour, 4+ inv and "1+ armour" and 3+ inv with shields.

I don't think anyone will be able to move their characters with their Revoltingly resilient and their Miasma of Pestilance gives them basically HArliquin levels of hard to killness. You can gun down Custodes with massed firepower, but these guys are negative 1 to hit, neg 1 to all wounds over d1, and 2++/4++/5+++ for less than a Custodes Captain. That is insane. Stop spreading the myth that they lost their FNP.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie, DG are so stupidly powerful now with their stock weapons, strats, and abilities, that kavetching about not getting all the weapons you had before seems, odd. This just leapfrogged the SM codex for sheer killiness, and even pimp slaps the Custodes for survivability. But sure, you can't take the gun from 7th-8th, that's whats important.

Yeah, DG sure will outlive the Custodes.Especially now that DG lost FNP. XD
-1D is not as good as a universal 2+ armour, 4+ inv and "1+ armour" and 3+ inv with shields.

I don't think anyone will be able to move their characters with their Revoltingly resilient and their Miasma of Pestilance gives them basically HArliquin levels of hard to killness. You can gun down Custodes with massed firepower, but these guys are negative 1 to hit, neg 1 to all wounds over d1, and 2++/4++/5+++ for less than a Custodes Captain. That is insane. Stop spreading the myth that they lost their FNP.

The Custodes are -1 to be hit as well. All it requires is a Vexilla.
Do Bloat Drones have FNP? Plague Marines? Blight-Haulers? Daemon Princes?

I guess they can't do it because of sprues, but I feel the real sin here is the fact you get 7 Plague Marines in a box, which never really made much sense (muh fluff etc being a bit meaningless - nothing stopped you running units of 7 if you had more.)

I think the problem is the precedent. I mean in some ways I would find it quite funny if people who've assembled 10+ VV with claw+shield get told its not a valid loadout, gg.

But yeah. I don't really want to be putting models together and worrying it won't be a valid loadout because I've bought 3 boxes worth to mix and match gear (I probably won't be that angry/upset/bitter if the solution is just buying another box, but idk, its still a concern.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What's your definition of "most"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and here's the BRILLIANT Blightlord datasheet. SURE you can't have 4 Combi-Plasmas in the same squad, but look! You can take one of each! So amazing!

Oh, you've had Death Guard terminators with 4 combi-plasmas for years now? Screw you, no soup 40k for you. Buy the new box.

I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

Wouldn’t a better solution be more options in the box?

So you can make them your guys?

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

Man, imagine a cohesive loadout of all the same Combi Weapon as being spamming the most effective option LOL. You're not serious are you?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

Wouldn’t a better solution be more options in the box?

So you can make them your guys?

Yes, of course. But GW hasn't done that ever, so I'd rather see them limit you to prevent spamming. It's not like I am not affected, I don't think my melee PM squad is legal now because I was fielding IIRC a few axes or the mace combo, and 2 flails. I still think it's a great idea to cut down on "durr the meta says 5 combi-plasma is the best choice so I'm going to scrounge around for that"

So what about the fluff player that decided five Combi-Flamers?

I understand the outrage because they've only changed it now, but ork infantry units have been this way ever since 4th or maybe even longer.

Want 10 MANz? Buy four boxes, two extras.
30 boyz? Three boxes, six extras.
15 lootas or burnas? Four boxes, one extra loota, three extra spanners.
15 tank bustas? Three boxes, two extra nobz, you need to find 2-8 more rokkits somewhere, depending on how many of the special weapons you want.
12 warbikers? Four boxes.
30 storm boyz? Six boxes.

Buying two boxes to have a maxed out squad seems rather tame to me, a full unit of flash gits is more expensive and doesn't have any extra models.