Switch Theme:

Drukhari 9th Codex Tactic's  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
I've played against both Tau and Grey Knights and both were brutal games for me.

A single unit of broadsides was killing 3-4 units every turn. Tau may not be great against other armies, but if they bring a lot of sms, you're going to have a bad time. The high-yield missiles are perfect against our transports in terms of strength and not wasting ap while the sms just scoop up infantry squads left and right. If they keep them well protected, it's not easy to charge anything even if you can turn off overwatch for one charge.



We have a stratagem to turn off OW for 1 of our units, with Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches amble to turn 2 charge easily, its not hard. If you are taking limited vehicles and too much foot sure might be harder.


I think it's pretty clear that he's not given that he mentioned how optimal missile pods are against our transports...which they are.

I would rather see basically any marine army across the table from me as drukhari in a competitive setting than tau, overwatch-ignoring stratagem notwithstanding. Just because I can have 1 unit in 1 area of the board ignore what is an army-wide benefit does not mitigate it entirely.


I literally just play Tau this week and a few weeks ago, had zero problems with them. Sure they will hurt but you only need 1 tun to shut down 2-3 units.

FYI the local "that guy" plays Tau and he 100% hates no escape and the CoS relic Agoniser, he was fluming at the mouth about how his large suits can't fly away b.c of a little net and whip lol.

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
I've played against both Tau and Grey Knights and both were brutal games for me.

A single unit of broadsides was killing 3-4 units every turn. Tau may not be great against other armies, but if they bring a lot of sms, you're going to have a bad time. The high-yield missiles are perfect against our transports in terms of strength and not wasting ap while the sms just scoop up infantry squads left and right. If they keep them well protected, it's not easy to charge anything even if you can turn off overwatch for one charge.



We have a stratagem to turn off OW for 1 of our units, with Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches amble to turn 2 charge easily, its not hard. If you are taking limited vehicles and too much foot sure might be harder.


I think it's pretty clear that he's not given that he mentioned how optimal missile pods are against our transports...which they are.

I would rather see basically any marine army across the table from me as drukhari in a competitive setting than tau, overwatch-ignoring stratagem notwithstanding. Just because I can have 1 unit in 1 area of the board ignore what is an army-wide benefit does not mitigate it entirely.


I literally just play Tau this week and a few weeks ago, had zero problems with them. Sure they will hurt but you only need 1 tun to shut down 2-3 units.

FYI the local "that guy" plays Tau and he 100% hates no escape and the CoS relic Agoniser, he was fluming at the mouth about how his large suits can't fly away b.c of a little net and whip lol.


Trouble with a single anecdotal example like this though, is that you can't tell much from it other than you had a (no doubt well deserved) easy win.

There's a good chance you're a significantly better player than him (given we're dealing with 'that guy'), you could be rolling hot, while he cold, his list could have been awful that day, etc etc.

Likely what we need to do, is look at data from events as it comes in and just see how Tau vs Drukhari matches up as an average. It's still not perfect, but probably the best we're going do outside of our perceptions as individuals.

(I love that he got upset regarding No Escape though - that ticked me )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 16:25:08


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Im just saying and I strongly feel for right now, we are a hard counter to Tau, we have insane tools to deal with them.

Im more worried about Admech shooting than Tau lol.

Well Tau are at the bottom for events, so hard to find that data.....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 16:31:55


15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Literally everything is a hard counter for Tau. Their 8th edition codex is fundamentally incompatible with the 9th edition game.

Doesnt mean they dont have tools that will absolutely ruin a paper boat parade's day in the hands of a good player with a good list.
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





Very true.

It cuts both ways doesn't it really? As much as we don't like to be shot by them, the one place Tau don't want to be is in melee - where we do our best work!

I figure (and this is just my opinion - I'm far from an expert), once we do get a couple of charges off (which is dangerous, more so than usual given their overwatch), the little fishies start to eaten alive quite rapidly.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






But we have ways to stop OW and to use up their OW, it also might be b.c I play with 8 transports. But on turn 2 every game I have transports charging first. or a large hellion/Reaver/wych units using the stratagem to turn off OW. Sometimes (well almost always) I do both.

If you are playing minimum transports (3-4) i can see it being more of a problem. But when you have something like (spoiler) i had no problems.
Spoiler:
Wyches > Raider
Wyches > Raider
Wyches > Raider
Incubi > Raider
Incubi > Raider
Wracks > Raider
Wracks > Raider
Wracks > Raider


OW and killing 1-2 transports is northing, then when they know you can re-ds a raider and get out of the raider with +1" re-rolling charges Wyches with Shardnets it also forces them to play differently as well.

PS the Wrack LG flamers with DT and DT Dis raiders wrecks.
IDK If i like DC or Lances better yet, the Lance wounding on 2+ is insane, but he made a couple invuls were the Discannon i took a MW or 2 sometimes but I got more wounds through. Its hard to say what i like better right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/16 17:00:42


15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 StrayIight wrote:
Worth remembering too, that the 'Overwatch ignoring' stratagem, is restricted. Pure CoS detachment required. So a good many Drukhari armies (probably mostly RSR flavours given how good CoS is), won't have access to it.


Also Prophets of Flesh Relic (Vexator Mask) removes OW from one unit

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





 Mr Morden wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Worth remembering too, that the 'Overwatch ignoring' stratagem, is restricted. Pure CoS detachment required. So a good many Drukhari armies (probably mostly RSR flavours given how good CoS is), won't have access to it.


Also Prophets of Flesh Relic (Vexator Mask) removes OW from one unit


True! Good catch!

Though you're braver than me if you use a Haemonculi that way
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






so, for a wrackspam build - Prophets of Flesh or Obsessive Collectors custom coven?

Prophets gives you a solid second layer of protection that actually works fairly well against wracks (protecting them against S5 (so you don't have to all be clustered around the haemonculus) S6 and S7, and gives you Urien's nice +ld+S aura. Plus he counts as a master haemie letting you bring haemoxytes.

However, Obsessive Collectors allows you tremendous meme potential with the Wrack Streets Back Alright setup of multiple Cronos, Obsessive, and Twisted Reanimator warlord trait

The obvious pairing if going custom would be an offensive trait to add a bit more bite to your wracks, who do only wound vehicles on 6s and that is a slight problem.

Masters of Mutagens is technically the most powerful but doesn't help your vehicle problem. a big ol squad of wracks with experimental creations can flail their way through a vehicle using Torturer's Craft but being S4 doesn't help much in other contexts. Splinterblades is kind of between the two - not quite as good as MM against non-vehicles, not quite as good as Experimental vs vehicles, so maybe a good compromise.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





I love the 'Wrack streets back' concept. No idea what would be the best in practice, but I think that certainly sounds the most fun!

For me, I see them more as a really useful group of 'anchor' units for us - they certainly lack killing power compared to Cults. But then the game isn't won in 9th simply by being able to hurt the other guys units more, staying power can be just as effective.

I'd love to see how a list like that plays.

I'd guess MM is your best offensive option, while using Raiders for anti vehicle duty? That latter aspect certainly seems to be showing up as a pattern in many of these winning lists, which makes perfect sense as we're taking them anyway in almost any conceivable list, alongside the considerable upgrade to Lances.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/17 00:14:28


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Amishprn86 wrote:


We have a stratagem to turn off OW for 1 of our units, with Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches amble to turn 2 charge easily, its not hard. If you are taking limited vehicles and too much foot sure might be harder.


I did have 3 cult of strife units for turning off overwatch and 6 vehicles, but since I went second you can guess which transports were killed before I got to move in the first turn. That meant the only surviving cult of strife unit in my first turn was a single succubus. Took her a couple turns to get up the field on foot. She was able to charge turn 3 and tie up the broadsides and a character who was too close to them which meant the end for them. At that point the broadsides had already had 3 turns to fire and killed several times their points worth though. Worse still, I tried to support the succ in the combat with some other units and was told that even if I charge a unit that's already in combat then they can still supporting fire with the nearby units. So yes, the succ made it in but I still lost another unit in the attempt.

I think it's broadsides in particular that will be the tough matchup when they use Tau. I was not as concerned or impressed with the other units he fielded like the riptides. The player I was up against is planning on going up to 2 units of broadsides now after seeing their performance. There's no hiding from 24 sms shots and 24 hymp shots coming from a single unit that can get reroll to hit and reroll to wound.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/17 11:05:14


 
   
Made in us
Perfected Haemonculi Living Sculpture






The issue with these discussion often revolves around two massive factors that get glossed over.

1. Mission deployment

2. Terrain

If T'au are drawing range and beads on that much of your army turn 1, you probably are not using what I would consider a properly terrained table OR you really got called out and caught misdeploying.

I have to agree with Amish here. It's not that T'au weapons are not good for downing our things, they are. But those units are very slow or immobile and HYMP and the like require LOS.

In order for them to bring a list with enough of the weapons your mentioning they really do end up with a slow as feth army that is garbage on mission objectives.

The DE army should be out maneuvering ans scoring and when engaging ti should be on their terms, or sacrificing units they expect to lose already.

Playing DE is like a knife fight, you have to expect to get cut somewhere in order to deliver your own blows, so feed them none vital parts while you play the mission.

I also agree with him admech is a much bigger issue. They basically auto hit with more hits then shots they started across much of the army and they have incredible bombers (seriously broken at 130 pts) as well as auto detonation which REALLY punishes MSU builds. With their book just around the corner I have a feeling the codex creep trend is going to cast a shadow on are army (I'm actually fine with that, I hate playing the popular army lol)

   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





 Red Corsair wrote:


Playing DE is like a knife fight, you have to expect to get cut somewhere in order to deliver your own blows, so feed them none vital parts while you play the mission.


I like this as an example of how we play. Colourful and insightful

Honestly, many of these discussions are somewhat moot right now. This very moment in time, we're almost certainly the army to beat and the matchup that most other people are likely to dread. There really isn't a situation that we don't have the tools to deal with, and frankly many of our units are so good at what they do, it may be somewhat more challenging to build a list that didn't have a good chance of winning a given game.

Saying that, it only takes for a heavy handed FAQ to drop, codex creep enhancing other factions, or simply the community starting to get used to how we play and building to counter us, for things to change rapidly. And none of those are necessarily bad things.

I think even the most optimistic among us are expecting the imminent FAQ to tone things down in several areas. Especially a certain Succu-build.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah, I saw a person post a conversion on reddit of the new 35$ drazar miniature into a razorflail succubus and I'm just thinking 'man, wait for the FAQ at least..."

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fr
Stabbin' Skarboy






 StrayIight wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:


Playing DE is like a knife fight, you have to expect to get cut somewhere in order to deliver your own blows, so feed them none vital parts while you play the mission.


I like this as an example of how we play. Colourful and insightful

Honestly, many of these discussions are somewhat moot right now. This very moment in time, we're almost certainly the army to beat and the matchup that most other people are likely to dread. There really isn't a situation that we don't have the tools to deal with, and frankly many of our units are so good at what they do, it may be somewhat more challenging to build a list that didn't have a good chance of winning a given game.

Saying that, it only takes for a heavy handed FAQ to drop, codex creep enhancing other factions, or simply the community starting to get used to how we play and building to counter us, for things to change rapidly. And none of those are necessarily bad things.
I think even the most optimistic among us are expecting the imminent FAQ to tone things down in several areas. Especially a certain Succu-build.


It is always nice to read post like these, where a player acknowledges the OPness of his new shiny rules. I did the same when DA rules came out, anyway kudos to you. I think however GW hasn’t much used the nerf bat lately on new releases, drukari might be left off the hook until next CA or something. Perhaps indeed just the razorflail succubus will get FAQed because that thing is just total nonsense in terms of balance

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






In general I think were probably going to see points nerfs to

-wyches, back up to 12ppm provably as theyre actually worth that now
-incubi+drazar, both pretty nutty, I can see 18-20ppm incubi
-Hellions, feels very strange that a solid side-grade to reaver
-bump raider body up 5pts, bump dissie down 5pts
-succubus up 10-15, seems like shes at least as good as the other hqs if not better, weird to see her so cheap

I like how deadly everything is now, we actually feel like the glass cannons we should be, but some point nerfs are definitely warranted.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Nah they will not get any point changes. We are pretty glass, once other books gets updates and people learn how to play against us we will be solid but not dominating. Players needs time to learn our book to counter us.

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





 addnid wrote:

It is always nice to read post like these, where a player acknowledges the OPness of his new shiny rules. I did the same when DA rules came out, anyway kudos to you. I think however GW hasn’t much used the nerf bat lately on new releases, drukari might be left off the hook until next CA or something. Perhaps indeed just the razorflail succubus will get FAQed because that thing is just total nonsense in terms of balance


Thank you.

I think discussion becomes pointless if we're not able to be honest within it. While there's a lot of elements of 40K debate that boil down to opinion there's much that doesn't also. A fair chunk we can look at data or the pure mathematics of how a given unit does in situation x or y.

That said, I'm still often wrong (as can be seen in this thread on more than one occasion )

GW being a little 'reluctant' of late to hand out adjustments (the DA FAQ is a good example of people having expected a range of balance changes, and actually there being very little), is a concern somewhat. I think most of us want an army that sits around that 50% win rate, where we feel like it was us, that caused a win or loss, not simply a set of rules that may also have made our opponents experience miserable.

Fingers crossed for an FAQ that makes the whole community happy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/18 16:40:22


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




The FAQ's aren't really for balancing so besides Reavers no point changes.

Competitive Edge may or may not get changed. In 8th, they specifically did FAQ that DttFE works the 'broken' way Competitive is used now. Could go either way.

I'm more curious for the Book of Rust FAQ because I want to know if I can have Drazhar as a warlord and still enjoy my Dark Lotus Toxin.
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





Audustum wrote:
The FAQ's aren't really for balancing so besides Reavers no point changes.

Competitive Edge may or may not get changed. In 8th, they specifically did FAQ that DttFE works the 'broken' way Competitive is used now. Could go either way.

I'm more curious for the Book of Rust FAQ because I want to know if I can have Drazhar as a warlord and still enjoy my Dark Lotus Toxin.


I'm very curious as to how they'll approach competitive edge. It's an incredible warlord trait, but arguably in and of itself simply 'strong' (very strong really - it's essentially a trait that allows you to re-roll everything that wasn't in your favour - even the opposing players saving throw). Still, it's very much the interaction of a particular weapon alongside it that becomes truly problematic, but that weapon is actually quite lacklustre on it's own. It needs Dark Lotus Toxin to really start to shine - so which end of the combo do you balance?

I'd guess none, and just go after the specific interaction? 'Extra attacks just apply to the initial hit rolls'.

Even then, you have a 60 pt character that can potentially swing between 14 and 28 times a turn.

Someone will need time and coffee...

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/18 21:03:45


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Red Corsair wrote:
The issue with these discussion often revolves around two massive factors that get glossed over.

1. Mission deployment

2. Terrain

If T'au are drawing range and beads on that much of your army turn 1, you probably are not using what I would consider a properly terrained table OR you really got called out and caught misdeploying.

I have to agree with Amish here. It's not that T'au weapons are not good for downing our things, they are. But those units are very slow or immobile and HYMP and the like require LOS.

In order for them to bring a list with enough of the weapons your mentioning they really do end up with a slow as feth army that is garbage on mission objectives.

The DE army should be out maneuvering ans scoring and when engaging ti should be on their terms, or sacrificing units they expect to lose already.

Playing DE is like a knife fight, you have to expect to get cut somewhere in order to deliver your own blows, so feed them none vital parts while you play the mission.

I also agree with him admech is a much bigger issue. They basically auto hit with more hits then shots they started across much of the army and they have incredible bombers (seriously broken at 130 pts) as well as auto detonation which REALLY punishes MSU builds. With their book just around the corner I have a feeling the codex creep trend is going to cast a shadow on are army (I'm actually fine with that, I hate playing the popular army lol)


There was a decent amount of terrain. The hymp only had line of sight to my one voidraven bomber because the terrain didn't block los on that no matter where it was. Two riptides on the flanks were the ones that were able to move up and crack a couple more transports. Then the sms from the broadsides didn't care about the LOS so they picked up passengers. I was about as well deployed out of LOS as I could be. Also don't forget that once a game they can advance up and shoot without penalty, so it's not as easy to dodge the hymp and such as it may seem on paper. So far I've won an 8 player event and a 22 player one, so I don't think it's that I'm deploying or playing poorly. The tau have been the hardest game for me of all the ones I've played so far.
   
Made in fr
Stabbin' Skarboy






 lessthanjeff wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
The issue with these discussion often revolves around two massive factors that get glossed over.

1. Mission deployment

2. Terrain

If T'au are drawing range and beads on that much of your army turn 1, you probably are not using what I would consider a properly terrained table OR you really got called out and caught misdeploying.

I have to agree with Amish here. It's not that T'au weapons are not good for downing our things, they are. But those units are very slow or immobile and HYMP and the like require LOS.

In order for them to bring a list with enough of the weapons your mentioning they really do end up with a slow as feth army that is garbage on mission objectives.

The DE army should be out maneuvering ans scoring and when engaging ti should be on their terms, or sacrificing units they expect to lose already.

Playing DE is like a knife fight, you have to expect to get cut somewhere in order to deliver your own blows, so feed them none vital parts while you play the mission.

I also agree with him admech is a much bigger issue. They basically auto hit with more hits then shots they started across much of the army and they have incredible bombers (seriously broken at 130 pts) as well as auto detonation which REALLY punishes MSU builds. With their book just around the corner I have a feeling the codex creep trend is going to cast a shadow on are army (I'm actually fine with that, I hate playing the popular army lol)


There was a decent amount of terrain. The hymp only had line of sight to my one voidraven bomber because the terrain didn't block los on that no matter where it was. Two riptides on the flanks were the ones that were able to move up and crack a couple more transports. Then the sms from the broadsides didn't care about the LOS so they picked up passengers. I was about as well deployed out of LOS as I could be. Also don't forget that once a game they can advance up and shoot without penalty, so it's not as easy to dodge the hymp and such as it may seem on paper. So far I've won an 8 player event and a 22 player one, so I don't think it's that I'm deploying or playing poorly. The tau have been the hardest game for me of all the ones I've played so far.


I also think Tau are by far the current best counters to Druka (as they were in the past editions actually). Also, I play in a very comp environment, and Tau never were that bad, because only the very good players still play with them, the rest fell off the bandwagon. Tau just need better players ATM. The Tau player in my team has one of the best TTS national rankings (for France), so that should say quite a lot all by itself.

Of course, in terms of absolutes, the Druk codex is "better" than the Tau codex, and by far, don't get me wrong here

And tau will struggle against DG, DA, etc. unlike Druka

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/19 09:05:53


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






well, had a second test game that just demonstrated how absolutely crazy hard we can dumpster on space marines. Was up against a semi-casual blood angel setup with 2x incursor squads plus an invictor suit, a squad of heavy rifle eradicators with a MM, plasma inceptors, sang guard, a small unit of death company, a dakka redemptor, jump chaplain, blood priest, and a BA character who I think may have been the chapter master. Plus one of the storm speeders, the build that has BS2+ and long range antitank weaponry.

I brought cults+covens. Dark Tech+Cursed Blade with 3x heat lance+claw talos, 2 wych squads, liquifier wracks, 5x incubi, 15x hellions, 5x mandrakes for scoring, and a Voidraven. Succubus with the triptch whip precision build, all the transports in dark tech.

I got first turn, opponent deployed pretty cautiously to avoid the voidraven so my best target point had 4 units, 2 of which were characters. Hit the dreadnought only, but did 6mws, and was able to finish it off with dark lances and the voidraven's guns. Talos moved up, dark tech melta'd the invictor suit, down to one wound and I finished it off with Dark Tech boosted venom fire. the Hellions killed an incursor squad midboard and I bumped them up to T5 PFP in anticipation of making them super irritating to kill.

On his turn, I basically just popped Lightning Reactions 2 phases in a row on the hellions to make them super irritating, did 4mw to Sanguinary Guard with Cursed Blade trait and interrupted to kill 4/5 of the death company, then they failed morale and every one of the remaining 4 ran away ,the absolute madlads. All his antitank shooting was required to take down the Voidraven.

Basically it was over turn 2. Incubi, Wyches, Bloodbrides, Succubus, Talos and Cronos all in super easy charge range of almost anything left of value in his army. On his turn he just deep struck in the inceptors to kill 1 talos and conceded.

What does an opponent do if they lose turn 1 to Drukhari? Like what's the play? Even if he'd totally ignored my Voidraven, say for the sake of argument he puts his eradicators and Storm Speeder into a Raider and the Venom (which had damaged itself down to 3HP) he could have killed the Incubi and maybe some wyches, but they still would have easily crashed his line and its not like the plane ain't gak after it's bomb is dropped - 6+d3 high Ap 2 damage shots is enough to clear out a 5-man marine squad no problem.

Basically I'm just not seeing any good options on the microboard to avoid combat, and if you do opt for combat you gotta be DAMN SURE you kill whatever you're fighting in one round or the attacks back are BRUTAL. 4 hellions just decimated a whole death company squad and they didn't even roll any melee offensive drugs, they rolled +T and +Move.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





Blood Angels are probably the opponent I'm most familiar with (they have significant presence locally).I think we're an exceptionally tough match up for them.

They're a relative elite army who wants to be in the melee. Drukhari have assault units which are a match for theirs, probably will have significantly more of them on the board in a given game, have better mobility and so are more likely to be able to dictate the charge, and when they don't, have multiple ways to ensure the Marines fight last.

They're fairly reliant on characters too, which again we can delete quite handily - Eviscerating Flyby etc.

It sounds like your play was really solid during the game, and without a mistake to try and capitalise on... yup, turn two concession sounds about right

You're utterly right though, we're an army with an overwhelming amount of threat. If you can't find a way to take the initiative vs a Drukhari army, they will control the game in a very one sided manner. As you say, that's harder still if you go second.

I don't really know what you do about that. Something in the meta will likely have to evolve, or toning down of some of our tools will probably be needed.
We're not unbeatable, we're fragile enough to deal with on paper, but we trade units so well that a Drukhari player on his/her game is an uphill struggle for many right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 02:59:31


 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

Fought my first battle vs sisters on saturday. I won but later on in the game they were a bit tough to face. Faith dice can be insanely obnoxious for damage dice. I wish I could force an enemy to take like 5 or 6 wounds when I wounded them rather than having to roll.

I may take out the incubi next time. Hard to say as it doesn't work well with my current setup.

Join skavenblight today!

http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Fought my first battle vs sisters on saturday. I won but later on in the game they were a bit tough to face. Faith dice can be insanely obnoxious for damage dice. I wish I could force an enemy to take like 5 or 6 wounds when I wounded them rather than having to roll.

I may take out the incubi next time. Hard to say as it doesn't work well with my current setup.


To be fair, if you want to go dark techno lances, then you can force at least 5 damage through with your shots. I prefer lances in the black heart kabal if you have the choice though and those still average 5 damage.

I am considering a list that doubles up on dark techno patrols instead of the black heart to get more liquifiers, so in that case I plan on disintegrators for my raiders. I love having reliable damage 2 or 3 weapons in the army because it makes it very easy to direct weapons into units efficiently. In the 7-8 games I've played with the new codex so far, I would have been plenty happy keeping them at the damage 2 profile in most cases anyways to avoid taking too much damage on myself. It would usually only be one or two turns a game where you need to enhance them and probably not all of them.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Fought my first battle vs sisters on saturday. I won but later on in the game they were a bit tough to face. Faith dice can be insanely obnoxious for damage dice. I wish I could force an enemy to take like 5 or 6 wounds when I wounded them rather than having to roll.

I may take out the incubi next time. Hard to say as it doesn't work well with my current setup.


Yeah I was gonna say, you can, just play Dark Technomancers and have 4+D3 damage dark lances and 3+D6 damage heat lances. That was a big hit with my opponent especially given the one turn his eradicators were on the board and not tied up by Wyches they attacked my plane and rolled all of 2 hits. Everyone spends a year and a half bitching about how busted eradicators are and now drukhari have a super-melta mounted on every single transport, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 StrayIight wrote:
Blood Angels are probably the opponent I'm most familiar with (they have significant presence locally).I think we're an exceptionally tough match up for them.

They're a relative elite army who wants to be in the melee. Drukhari have assault units which are a match for theirs, probably will have significantly more of them on the board in a given game, have better mobility and so are more likely to be able to dictate the charge, and when they don't, have multiple ways to ensure the Marines fight last.

They're fairly reliant on characters too, which again we can delete quite handily - Eviscerating Flyby etc.

It sounds like your play was really solid during the game, and without a mistake to try and capitalise on... yup, turn two concession sounds about right

You're utterly right though, we're an army with an overwhelming amount of threat. If you can't find a way to take the initiative vs a Drukhari army, they will control the game in a very one sided manner. As you say, that's harder still if you go second.

I don't really know what you do about that. Something in the meta will likely have to evolve, or toning down of some of our tools will probably be needed.
We're not unbeatable, we're fragile enough to deal with on paper, but we trade units so well that a Drukhari player on his/her game is an uphill struggle for many right now.


Putting myself in my opponent's shoes for a moment, and given the benefit of hindsight, he did make a couple of mistakes that allowed me to set up an easy win.

1) he respected the threat range of the wyches and bloodbrides on one side of the board with his incursors but didn't do so with the Hellions, which did essentially enable me to use them as approximately 10" of extra movement and a free kill

2) he chose to deep strike the Inceptors rather than having them on the board and behind Obscuring terrain (there was a ton of that floating around in this game, and everything in his army was behind obscuring or dense for almost everything in my army except for my plane which obviously flew right into his backline) which meant that unit essentially didnt exist in the game. In hindsight, if he'd dropped the chapter master's buff on them they would have been the 100% ideal thing to blow away the Hellions with that would not have committed his main assault force. If the Sanguinary Guard, chapter Master and Death Company had chopped the Voidraven apart, the inceptors had wiped the hellions, and the anti-vehicle shooting had taken the transports for the Incubi and Wyches out, that would have put him into a VASTLY better spot going into top of 2.

We both ended up removing a similar number of points from each others list turn 1 - if anything, he killed slightly more by taking out the Voidraven and the maxed out Hellion squad. The main reason that was an insta-gg was the fact that it forced his whole 700-ish point assault bomb right into the midboard in easy range of a squad of incubi and 3 talos+Cronos that just took them apart the next turn. They were even so extended that he had sanguinaries daisy-chaining back to be in the Chaplain auras, which meant I didn't even have to fight the chaplain - I shot him right in the face with Talos meltaguns.

To win the game, I was going to come to him. The assault troops staying at a safe distance would have made my job harder, but I think he felt like if he attacked the plane with them he'd be on the back foot when it came to board position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 11:26:30


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench





 StrayIight wrote:
Audustum wrote:
The FAQ's aren't really for balancing so besides Reavers no point changes.

Competitive Edge may or may not get changed. In 8th, they specifically did FAQ that DttFE works the 'broken' way Competitive is used now. Could go either way.

I'm more curious for the Book of Rust FAQ because I want to know if I can have Drazhar as a warlord and still enjoy my Dark Lotus Toxin.


I'm very curious as to how they'll approach competitive edge. It's an incredible warlord trait, but arguably in and of itself simply 'strong' (very strong really - it's essentially a trait that allows you to re-roll everything that wasn't in your favour - even the opposing players saving throw). Still, it's very much the interaction of a particular weapon alongside it that becomes truly problematic, but that weapon is actually quite lacklustre on it's own. It needs Dark Lotus Toxin to really start to shine - so which end of the combo do you balance?

I'd guess none, and just go after the specific interaction? 'Extra attacks just apply to the initial hit rolls'.

Even then, you have a 60 pt character that can potentially swing between 14 and 28 times a turn.

Someone will need time and coffee...



It's pretty straightforward if you ask me, just the addition of the word 'rolls' after attacks in the wording. Basically anything that doesn't damage you get to make a number of 'attack rolls' equivalent to the ones that didn't damage. 7 attacks becomes 14 attack rolls with razorflails, 9 of those don't damage so you get to make 9 more 'attack rolls' using the same weapon profile to distinguish it between starting an entire attack sequence again. They may not change competitive edge at all and just re-word razorflails so that attack re-rolls cant generate any more as a result or something.
   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest





Octovol wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Audustum wrote:
The FAQ's aren't really for balancing so besides Reavers no point changes.

Competitive Edge may or may not get changed. In 8th, they specifically did FAQ that DttFE works the 'broken' way Competitive is used now. Could go either way.

I'm more curious for the Book of Rust FAQ because I want to know if I can have Drazhar as a warlord and still enjoy my Dark Lotus Toxin.


I'm very curious as to how they'll approach competitive edge. It's an incredible warlord trait, but arguably in and of itself simply 'strong' (very strong really - it's essentially a trait that allows you to re-roll everything that wasn't in your favour - even the opposing players saving throw). Still, it's very much the interaction of a particular weapon alongside it that becomes truly problematic, but that weapon is actually quite lacklustre on it's own. It needs Dark Lotus Toxin to really start to shine - so which end of the combo do you balance?

I'd guess none, and just go after the specific interaction? 'Extra attacks just apply to the initial hit rolls'.

Even then, you have a 60 pt character that can potentially swing between 14 and 28 times a turn.

Someone will need time and coffee...



It's pretty straightforward if you ask me, just the addition of the word 'rolls' after attacks in the wording. Basically anything that doesn't damage you get to make a number of 'attack rolls' equivalent to the ones that didn't damage. 7 attacks becomes 14 attack rolls with razorflails, 9 of those don't damage so you get to make 9 more 'attack rolls' using the same weapon profile to distinguish it between starting an entire attack sequence again. They may not change competitive edge at all and just re-word razorflails so that attack re-rolls cant generate any more as a result or something.


That definitely helps and is the same conclusion I reached as the likely change. I don't know if it quite goes far enough given how cheap and potent a Succubus remains after that.

I kinda feel 40K is crying out for experienced, professional QA at this point. People who are going to catch problematic interactions and balance issues like these before new rules go to print. What we have right now is a volunteer system, which seems more often to be a reward for 'influential' members of the community.

If those individuals happen to be prominent competitive players (as many of the ones I can think of are), they then have early access to new rules, more time to play test and compile lists, potential influence on the rules themselves... That's a problem for anyone trying to say 'competitive 40K' with a straight face really (I can think of an example toward the end of 8th, where a play tester went on to win a major event with an army whose Codex had just dropped).

Eh. Can of worms right there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/20 17:08:56


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wouldn't be surprised if "the fix" turns out to be "you can't take competitive edge with razorflails". Its the simplest solution - upsetting for some undoubtedly - but I don't see how else you do it. A model shouldn't get 42 attacks, minus some for actually doing damage. I don't really buy "well 28 would be okay". By comparison to most other things in the game its clearly ludicrous. Jain Zar has 4. (Yes, I'm sure it will go up when the CWE codex comes out.)

(Brutally why the Succubus is allowed to take Wych weapons at all remains something of a mystery - the model explicitly without them is after all standing right there - but hopefully they wouldn't go that far. Say's the blaster-carrying Archon...)
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: