Bits and Kits and the refund that never was...

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**TiB**

Hi all,

I'm currently in a bit of a pickle with the bitssite Bits and Kits.
Basically I ordered over €100,- of product off them which never arrived, and now they don't want to give me a refund.

The entire e-mail correspondence:

Spoiler:

tl;dr: I have made a total of 5 orders over at Bits and Kits, 3 of them didn't arrive.
I asked for a refund.
At first B&K was very friendly and cooperative, but no money ever showed up.
I mailed that I thought it was taking a bit long and got a mail back from B&K basically accusing me of fraud. Also they state that my delivery address was somewhere in Afghanistan.
I remain friendly and explain him that I'm not a fraud, I also checked back my order log on their site and my delivery address was perfectly right.
Now they're not replying anymore and I think they're just waiting for me to give up, but I don't really feel like paying €100,- for being called a fraud...

Dear Dakka, what do I do?

**BluntmanDC**

report them, if they are taking your money without sending stock then they have broken the law.

**SilverMK2**

Might want to edit out your address in the above.

**TiB**

@Bluntman: to whom?

@ Silver: yeah noticed it too when I posted it, done. Also changed colours back to normal against eyehurt.

**LunaHound**

I have similar experience where i thought by cooperating with the big trusted sellers should make their busy lifes abit easier...
unfortunately the wait and patience i gave to the seller meant i also lost my buy protection time limit so... dont let this happen to you.

**TiB**

How long is that? 'cause this has been dragging on since early may :(

**Howard A Treesong**

TiB wrote:@Bluntman: to whom?

If you were in Britain you would take it up with Trading Standards. Have you an equivalent there? Basically there's no proof the packages arrived and they have our money. You could be cheating them, but equally they may have never sent the packages, frankly they haven't a leg to stand on. If they made recorded deliveries this would be much easier to sort out, but that's their problem because the power is with the customer.

No proof of receivership? You can claim a refund.

**Kilkrazy**

A properly organised business will have a despatch book, in which to record the details of each package sent out. They can also have a proof of posting from the PO counter. These proofs allow them to claim something like £36 per lost package in the UK. There is a higher limit if you buy insurance or recorded delivery.

It is really up to the PO to decide you the receiver may be a fraud, and investigate accordingly, not the sending company. The sender can be as suspicious as hell, but they have to give you the goods or the money.

You are outside the limit (45 days?) for making a claim via PayPal, however you can still claim through the Small Claims Courts procedure, perhaps using the Money Claim Onling process.

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/onlineservices2/mcol/index.htm

Before doing that, though, I should have a go at some alternative dispute resolution.

At the least, I would get the physical name and address of the seller, and send them a nicely written letter setting out your claim. Send it recorded delivery so you have proof they have received it.

The letter should politely and clearly set out your case.

You made several orders on such and such dates as follows:
Details of orders.
Some orders have not been received.
You wish to have a refund of your payments for the missing orders.
Point out that, according to PO/Royal Mail rules (check them online) the sender can claim for the missing packages, so he will not be out of pocket.
Ask for a response inside 14 days.

If no response is received, write again, enclosing the previous correspondence. Propose the use of some mutually agreeable dispute resolution process to resolve the claim. I don't know what to suggest for this, but you may have an idea.

Once again, if you do not get any response, write, enclosing copies, and state your intention to take the matter to Small Claims if you do not get the refund.

After a suitable time limit you can either give up, or initiate the claim.

**CURNOW**

How did you pay ? if by credit card then get them to chase them. also even tho you arnt in the uk the sender is so all uk retail law still applys to you so have a look on the tradeing standards page and have a word with them .

**BluntmanDC**

TiB wrote:@Bluntman: to whom?

the trading standards body in your country and the country in which this internet company works out of, as it is the laws of that country the company has to follow

**Bat Manuel**

You really should have waited to get the first order before making the next two. From the sellers position it does look very suspicious.

**doctorludo**

Suspicions of fraud are neither here nor there. You don't need to argue this with them. If they are suspicious, then they should investigate it through the correct channels, not just accuse you. The danger in responding in kind is that you might make it harder to defend yourself in future. So don't be drawn into any arguments, and don't be distracted by being sent to chase anything up.

(As an aside, one could ask "why did you continue to deal with me when you thought I was attempting to defraud you?", but that would probably not help your case.)

IANAL, but I think that all you need to say is "I did not receive the goods as promised." or similar and leave it at that. I think they are hoping you'll go away, and lose any rights by having taken so long. If I were in your shoes, my next letter would be something simple, to the point and clear, like this:

Dear Sir,

I am writing following previous correspondence regarding several orders I made with your company:

Ref numbers

We have been communicating on this issue since (date). I have still not received these orders or a refund. I would ask you to send me either a replacement product or refund my account. If I have not received either in 14 days, I will seek legal advice. Obviously, I hope to avoid this if possible.

Yours Faithfully,

Tim Blom

And if you don't have the refund or the product after two weeks, seek advice. Try not to be fobbed off with statements like "we are looking into this" or "please could you contact Royal Mail". These sound like stalling tactics. They've had six months to look into it.

It looks as if the company are based in the UK. Try this for information on UK consumer rights:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/DG_182935

Oh, two other points. Firstly, if they really think it's fraud, they might pursue this, so be prepared. Secondly, libel law is very powerful in the UK. You might want to remove references to the company name from this thread.

**notprop**

All good advice gents.

If the parcels haven't arrived and his info says indicates he sent the to Afganistan then it would seem like he has made a Feth-up and put the wrong country down and he can't claim his money back from the Royal Mail. He has probably been waiting for them to payout and to "pay when paid" is also illegal.

Personally I would sic your credit card provider on them and be done with it. I have always found Visa to be very good debt collectors.

**Eggroll**

Wow, the fact that the company accused you of defrauding them without definite proof is a horrid business practice. It doesn't matter how suspicious a situation is, a reputable company will not make accusations such as those without some real evidence. Their only result will be to alienate the customer. I can say for sure I'm going to avoid buying any bits from them.

If you're still in need of bits, I'd recommend the seller Hoard o Bits on ebay. Great selection and decent turn around times.

Good luck with trying to get your money back.

**TiB**

Thanks all! I'll look into all the options you gave me asap and let you know.

**Earthbeard**

I've had no end of issues with massively delayed post for the Netherlands these past 6 months, no idea what your postal service is doing, but nearly all my parcels take forever to arrive, this is done via royal mail airmail and international signed for.

It's too common occurrence to be anything other than the NL's postal people.

All this relates to Ebay selling, I've now put them on the do not ship list, even Italy doesn't have that :/

**TiB**

But this store was the only one that took so long.

I've had about 60 to 70 ebay purchases from all corners of the world come in these past 6 months with very reasonable shipping time.

Heck the new bitsstore I use is Italian (even though I too had my doubts about the italian postal service) and is superb. If packages can do Italy-the Netherlands in 3-4 days, surely they can from the UK!

**Tyron**

The owner regularly posts on heresey online, try making a thread there.

**Kilkrazy**

i wouldn't. It is likely to put his back up.

Write a sensible letter.

**Sidstyler**

Hell, I wouldn't buy from them anyway just because they never have crap in stock when I browse their site. Guess I'm just too slow or something but every time I go to a bits seller they're always sold out of everything that's worth buying.

**Absolutionis**

Don't say things like "if I wanted to be fraudulent I'd have ordered a lot more than just over 20 pounds every time ;-)"

Additionally, don't send e-mails simply stating "Can I get a response please?". State the whole problem again; copy+paste the issue and try to be as comprehensive as you can.

Finally, they said both Royal Mail and they sent you letters. You didn't receive them? That's also problematic.

**Mr. Burning**

I would take this info and write a complaint to your postal service as well.

You have checked with your post office depot haven't you?

**TiB**

So, I hadn't undertaken any action yet when, out of the blue after more than 2 months without contact I got this email:

Dear Tim

I have investigated your claim further and have decided to refund you for the missing orders, How would you like your refund paypal or cheque?

Mark

and now they followed it up as well with a complete refund as well as throwing in an extra 10 quid for the trouble.

Happy end after all

**Slinky**

Huzzah for happy endings!

**Gearhead**

What gets me is how he promises a refund "shortly," then after a friggin MONTH shoots back with accusations of trying to defraud him. 3 packages didn't get delivered? Likely explanation is that they never got sent. I've bought from them in the past, and won't be doing so again.

Glad you finally got your refund!

**Chapterhouse**

I can sympathize with both sides in this story.

We ship all over the world, even Italy, and I can tell you customs can be a bitch. I know some packages can take up to 6 weeks to reach my customers in Germany and other European countries.
Another issue, in order for our shipping to be affordable, we cant track international packages past the US customs point...

Saying that, I do keep good contact with the customers, and I have never suspected any of them of fraud (or said so in an email).

I am careful on the shipping info my customers give me. Many times the paypal address does not match the information that they put in the order (I go with the order info, they have to type that in...).

I have had one gruff Australian customer who never received his package, but this was due to him not putting in the correct postal code (he verified this after the second order).

Regardless, in the rare case that something is missing (and this is at the 2 month missing mark) I try to work with the customer, while this rarely is a refund, it usually consist of them either paying for only the shipping on a reorder, or something like a 90% discount to cover the cost of the materials..

For you paypal users... use your paypal recourse and credit card recourse when in doubt. That is what it is there for.

**Gearhead**

Aye, but from where I'm sitting there's just no excuse for promising a refund and doing nothing for a month until your customer has to bug you several more times to get a reply.

**lord_blackfang**

Gearhead wrote:Aye, but from where I'm sitting there's just no excuse for promising a refund and doing nothing for a month until your customer has to bug you several more times to get a reply.

My guess would be that they intentionally stall until it's too late to make a Paypal claim.

I got fed up with B&K after several orders had missing bits and I never got one reply out of them until I started a Paypal claim. By the way, it turns out that Paypal automatically rules in favour of the seller in the case of received, but incomplete orders. B&K happily took advantage of this and never refunded me or replaced the bits.

**mercer**

Afganistan and simliar other countries tend to have a no trade policy with most companies for reasons such as fraud as it's high in those countries.

It does look weird placing several orders and them not turning up, however a good arguement in your case is 2 have turned up so obivously the address is correct and they putting Afganistan is a royal balls up.