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In a perfect world you could definitely bring a bunch of Marines along with RG to move up, rapid fire, and charge with him. There just isn't a great way to do that with the current unit costs and transport interactions.

Well, Imo in a perfect world you wouldn't be relying on Guilliman at all. But I'm also of the opinion that he's not all he's cracked up to be, especially at 400 points. If, you're looking for mobility, that's 5 1/2 Rhinos.

Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

Honestly, I don't see any other competitive build for marines other than what raven guard can do. As we previously established, gulliman gunline is outdated and FAQ removed all other alpha strike options besides raven guard gimmicks. Marines can't make a good gunline or melee alpha strike, they can't do hordes and they can't do a sponge list that can take a beating, not much left, everything is just too overpriced and nothing has fly or superheavy status which seems to be the qualification to count as a good vehicle these days.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

Yeah. Even in a state of perfect balance and multiple ways to make a competitive SM list, Roboute can only be balanced by pricing him under the assumption that you have 6 or so of the best SM shooting units around him, and pigeon holes you into crowding everything you can around him or not getting the most out of your points. It's just bad design.

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

The codex is priced like it was designed for you take Roboute in the first place AND at the same time you're using the Raven Guard Strategem!

Look at the basic Sternguard vs Deathwatch Vet with a Storm Bolter. Would you rather have:
1. 2 attacks and either Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP0 or Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-2 at 30" for 18 points
OR
2. 3 attacks and Rapid Fire 2 Special Ammunition at 20 points

It literally isn't a contest. Sternguard only look good in comparison if you're next to Roboute or you infiltrate them (and of course Deathwatch have their own Deep Strike stratagem so...)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

The codex is priced like it was designed for you take Roboute in the first place AND at the same time you're using the Raven Guard Strategem!

Look at the basic Sternguard vs Deathwatch Vet with a Storm Bolter. Would you rather have:
1. 2 attacks and either Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP0 or Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-2 at 30" for 18 points
OR
2. 3 attacks and Rapid Fire 2 Special Ammunition at 20 points

It literally isn't a contest. Sternguard only look good in comparison if you're next to Roboute or you infiltrate them (and of course Deathwatch have their own Deep Strike stratagem so...)

Your comparison and conclusion is valid, though I'm not sure it has much to do with RG specifically. If it does have anything to do with him, I feel like he is way down on the list of relevant factors.

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.

Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.

If you really think speed is part of the value with Fire Raptors I'm guessing you haven't looked at the unit entry once.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.

Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.

The point is a Close combat dreadnaught is hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ re'rolling everything is just reroll 1's its worth nothing.

Lets keep it codex and say asscannon razorbacks hit on 3+ wound on 5+ vrs vehicals so rerolling 1&2 and 1,2,3 & 4. It's a much bigger effect. It also leads to wierd builds that rediculous abuse the reroll to make things work that shouldn't. So asscannon razorbacks get massive points hit and those of use not clabusing Bobby G get shafted out of a viable anti hoard option.

The reroll buff is broken and will just result in all anti hoard weapons being priced so high they don't work against hoards.

Yeah, wounds are the issue from what I can tell. Reroll all wounds auras shouldn't exist IMO because it effects some weapons a lot more than others.

Reroll hits effects all weapons that have to roll to hit (so not flamers) by the same amount, so it can be reasonably quantified based on ballistic skill. If you have BS3+, rerolling all hits increases your damage by 33% for every weapon in the game. This has a pretty clear value.

Wounding has to do with S vs T so re-rolls to wound help weak weapons that wound on 5s and 6s significantly more than they do anything else, so it makes more sense to buy high rate of fire low strength weapons and then boost their power up to 83% against things they are bad at instead of just buying guns that are good at killing high T things that might only be boosted 33%.

Ice_can wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.

Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.

The point is a Close combat dreadnaught is hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ re'rolling everything is just reroll 1's its worth nothing.

Lets keep it codex and say asscannon razorbacks hit on 3+ wound on 5+ vrs vehicals so rerolling 1&2 and 1,2,3 & 4. It's a much bigger effect. It also leads to wierd builds that rediculous abuse the reroll to make things work that shouldn't. So asscannon razorbacks get massive points hit and those of use not clabusing Bobby G get shafted out of a viable anti hoard option.

The reroll buff is broken and will just result in all anti hoard weapons being priced so high they don't work against hoards.

Yeah, different weapons benefit nore from rerolls, just like different units benefit more or less from rerolls. But also, different units benefit more from terrain than others, and different units are countered more or less hard by different units, and different spells get more value with different units, and certain weapons have more value against certain units, etc. Etc. Etc. Expecting linear relationships here is pretty unreasonable, and no, I don't think it's simply "bad design".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you really think speed is part of the value with Fire Raptors I'm guessing you haven't looked at the unit entry once.

If you think extreme mobility has no value I heavily question your tactical acumen.

It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.

It does if you want to flank to deny non-infantry cover or jam forward to snipe poorly protected characters.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.

It does if you want to flank to deny non-infantry cover or jam forward to snipe poorly protected characters.

It sounds like you, on top of not actually knowing the weapons the Fire Raptor carries, don't know the price of it if you're seriously suggesting throwing it in the middle of your opponents army to kill a character.

The Fire Raptor KILLS the screens protecting characters. Seriously. Please read the unit entry.

Maybe I'm not doing this at the start of the game, but later in the match when it's a safer move. This isn't rocket science.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Maybe I'm not doing this at the start of the game, but later in the match when it's a safer move. This isn't rocket science.

If it's that late in the game you're actually able to do that you already won. So I have no clue what kinda games you're playing based off the fact you're running 40+ Tactical Marines in the first place.

Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.

But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.

But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.

It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.

But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.

It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.

If you can't see a difference in value between a 45" movement with no penalty to firing weapons, and a 12" movement with a -1 to hit, that's on you.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.

But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.

It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.

If you can't see a difference in value between a 45" movement with no penalty to firing weapons, and a 12" movement with a -1 to hit, that's on you.

When the weapons already have a range that you only really need to move once or twice, YES it has no value. This isn't difficult to grasp at all.

So here's what I learned today: Being able to move with no penalty has no value. Maneuvering to deny cover has no value. And maneuvering to snipe characters has no value. I mean, why would you want the ability to take advantage of your opoonents board position or anything like that? :/

I think we're done here.

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

What if they changed the aura to does not effect fliers and/or vehicles?

Guilliman should have just been a re-roll 1's bubble 12" for all SMs and codex compliant SM units in a battle forged army with Gman as it's warlord retain their chapter tactics in mixed chapter detachments.

Re-rolling all wounds is just too impactful. It changes units damage output too much in relation to the just re-roll 1s and, as we have seen by Gman's price changing every chance they get, GW is unable to balance it.

While we're all having a moment anyone else getting frustrated by so many things being straight up better/cheaper than SM options?

Off the top of my head (just stuff I've seen recently) DE disintegrator cannons being grav cannons +1 for half the points, putting out dual AC shooting for 2/3rds the points, armigaers with 2x pred auto-cannons+PoTMS+1 w+CqC+strats for 20% more points, DW basically being primaris +1, the fact that SM have the weakest selection of strats. I mean if I put any effort into it the list would be so long. At this point is really feels like piling on. Hell I get "poor guy" smiles when I show up to the local and unpack my marines.

The best things in our codex wouldn't even make it onto the table in most competitive builds in other armies. I feel that the only competitively priced option we have is a leviathan dread and I think with the new IK codex it is outclassed for the points.

Unless you are building a super competitive list out of SM it's hard to even compete with casual lists from other armies at this point. I get to be a "WAAC try hard" with black ultra marines who gets tabled by turn 4 by the casual DE player who just pulled out his guys for the first time since 6th...

Bobby G should have affected all Imperium equally. Much easier to balance.

That is Gulliman's problem really, his aura is so utterly broken that anything it affects must be subpar for it to even out. That is why most space marine units are so bad, they are about as good as best units of other codexes when they are re-rolling everything.

 Dynas wrote:

Spoiler:

Ice_can wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.

Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.

You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.

I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.

The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.

The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.

What if they changed the aura to does not effect fliers and/or vehicles?

Staight NO it needs to be removed from the game and which ever designer though that type of aura could be costed fairly needs to be sent back to primary school maths classes untill they learn to do some math hammer before every being allowed near even a rules suggestion box let alone a codex.

Guilliman can be great if you remove the buff aura and point cost him appropriately. Though at this point I honestly don't think GW have any intention of fixing codex marines.