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It seems to me that spears are really ineffective for armies that arent elf related (Dark elf spearmen have their hatred while high elf spearmen fight in 4 ranks and have ASF) The trade off of getting 1/3 additional attacks doesnt look like a good deal either by staying at S3 instead of S4 (halberds for empire and bretonnia) or keeping that parry save (empire who have WS4, skaven rats), or by just keeping the cost of an expensive unit down (skeletons)

I suppose WITH horde its more effective but thats a lot of models in one unit and not all of them will be in contact with the enemy

oh theres also lizardmen, at S4 not bad and they already have a decent save.

Any insight on this?

Spears were probably more useful when it was possable for a charging unit to wipe the front rank and take no attacks back. spears made it very difficult to avoid taking damage back.


it probably is more effective for certain armies not to take spears for the reasons you mentioned.


Spears were great for Empire in 7th. you could have a massive block of spearmen and just dare the enemy to charge you. Now, with 2 ranks fighting all the time, Spears are kinda redundant.


it isn't so much the Str issue, many armies are fielding tons of cheap T3 troops so they can get into Horde quickly, but the benifits of Parry that makes spears a 2nd choice. Halbards tie with HW and shield as the Str is good for cracking armor.

Spears aren't a total waste. If you're fighting very low/no save opponents at T3, spears are actually slightly better than halberds.

While slightly better might not seem like much; sometimes it only takes a single extra kill to strip enemy steadfast.

Pair this with slightly better armor than halberds, and the spear comes in at a half measure between using a halberd and using a Hand Weapon Shield.

-Matt

For beastmen a large block of ungors with spear and shield are a good unit for tieing up infantry and grinding down enemies in tandem with other units. Especially at lower point value battles they can be great.

Night Gobbos do alright with spears, I think. So do Skaven slaves. Complete waste of time on Orc Boyz though- I've never seen anyone field them that way.

If you're going to be in a position of needing to make a load of saves, then Hand Weapon and Shield probably just edges it, but I agree with HawaiiMatt that a few extra attacks can sometimes be very handy too.

A few units where I think they definitely work are...

High Elves - Seemingly endless ranks of attacks... very scary!
Skeleton Hordes - Parry not so much an issue as Invocation of Nehek replaces your losses
Saurus Warriors - Resistant to charges and replying with extra S4 attacks is very nice
Dark Elves - Mega cheap, high Initiative, and rerolls from Hatred
Eternal Guard - 5+ Ward Save, so no need for parry

Spears are also great where you have access to Buffs (e.g. Wyssan's Wildform) or Hexes (e.g. Wither) to counter the fact that your attacks are of usually low strength.

Flashman wrote:If you're going to be in a position of needing to make a load of saves, then Hand Weapon and Shield probably just edges it, but I agree with HawaiiMatt that a few extra attacks can sometimes be very handy too.

A few units where I think they definitely work are...

High Elves - Seemingly endless ranks of attacks... very scary!
Skeleton Hordes - Parry not so much an issue as Invocation of Nehek replaces your losses
Saurus Warriors - Resistant to charges and replying with extra S4 attacks is very nice
Dark Elves - Mega cheap, high Initiative, and rerolls from Hatred
Eternal Guard - 5+ Ward Save, so no need for parry

Spears are also great where you have access to Buffs (e.g. Wyssan's Wildform) or Hexes (e.g. Wither) to counter the fact that your attacks are of usually low strength.

All but the skeles I have already mention are better than normal. Elves have their high initiative and special rules while lizards are already tough and have better strength. Problem with the skeletons is that they cost quite a bit for WS2 guys although the vampire ones are decent with spears with magic (res a few then use speed of light ) TK on the other hand should probably only ever use their bows or shields if they must

Thing is, in 7th halberds and spears were fairly closely matched, more attacks versus more hitting power, with the slight advantage arguably going to the spears.

But with 8th everyone got a whole extra rank of attacks. You used to compare 5 halberd attacks to 10 spear attacks, now you consider 10 halberd attacks against 15 spear attacks. So it used to be ‘is having Str 4 worth having half as many attacks?’ and now it’s ‘is having Str 4 worth having 2/3 as many attacks?’ which obviously swings the advantage considerably towards the halberds.

Seb: It's a good way to lay that out. For what it's worth, there's an armor save component to consider there as well...

O' course, not every unit that can take spears can take halberds.

To me spears are only worthwhile if you're mounted and have no option for lances.
That or they're your standard equipment.

Spear Question here for Skaven Clanrats:

The Skaven Book states that Standard Equipment for a clan rat is a HW and LA.

It states that spears and/or shields can be purchased as "additional" equipment.

So I would take that that Skaven Clanrats with spears can also have HW and shields at the same time.

So does that mean that a unit of Clanrats can run around and choose at the beginning of each close combat what equipment they will use (using the same setup until they fight a different unit)?

The new rules state that if you have a special weapon you must use it, so even though the rats will have both a spear and a HW they are forced to use the spear.

d-usa wrote:Spear Question here for Skaven Clanrats:

The Skaven Book states that Standard Equipment for a clan rat is a HW and LA.

It states that spears and/or shields can be purchased as "additional" equipment.

So I would take that that Skaven Clanrats with spears can also have HW and shields at the same time.

So does that mean that a unit of Clanrats can run around and choose at the beginning of each close combat what equipment they will use (using the same setup until they fight a different unit)?

The whole unit needs the same upgrades. But you could elect to have them use a different weapon each round. Like spears for charging in and then handweapons next round for the parry save.

Lexx wrote:But you could elect to have them use a different weapon each round.

No he cannot, see the "Close Combat Weapons" rule on page 89 of the BRB.
The special weapon must be used, if you have two special weapons you must decide which you're using at the start of combat and you are stuck with it until that combat is over, no matter how many rounds it takes, unless the rules tell you to do otherwise (like lances/mounted spears say you switch to the HW after the 1st round).

Gotcha, I was thinking about having the two special weapons.

But can units with spears and shields still use the +1 AS benefit from missile fire and in CC? But not the ward save.

Well spears are one handed so you get your +1 AS in CC too.
Its halberds that require two hands.

Thanks for the clarification. I will probably use one unit of Skaven with Spears and shields, just because it will save me from having to buy one more unit later on......

Problem about skaven with spears is that it makes them more expensive (yea yea its 1/2 a point )

Need more points for weapon teams and more slaves!

Also on the weapons thing, thats why only black orcs can change their weapons combat after combat. Also possibly brets too with their lances, I dont know if other armies can swap lances after a charge

The math I've done so far supports spears as giving you more CR than hw/sh does (when comparing kills, plus CR denied your opponant through saves). This is primarily measured with ws3, s3 troops (and DE) vs t3 and t4 opponants (and the maddening proliferation of no AS allowing opponants)

Dwarf slayers can switch weapons too.

The math I've done so far supports spears as giving you more CR than hw/sh does (when comparing kills, plus CR denied your opponant through saves).

I concur for the most part. For Elves and for Saurus warriors I use spears (provided the unit size is high enough to benefit from them) based solely off the high points cost per model. Its unlikely you will outnumber most other armies (there are a few exceptions), and you need more damage compared to the 6+ ward. I'll be completely honest in saying I am not at all impressed with the 6+ ward the hw/shield gives you.

However, on a unit where your intention is to either tarpit, or otherwise slow down your enemy, any and all survivability is important. For that reason, I would likely use the hw/shield to increase survivability slightly.

You will eventually lose the spear bonus, and that is why most Lizardmen players are hesistant to use them as the low I value means 1 turn of lost attacks already. This can be mitigated with spells to a degree. Overall though, I think the bonus of the spears is slightly better than the 6+ ward. Now Warriors with a mark of Tzeentch....

HoverBoy wrote:Dwarf slayers can switch weapons too.

Ah yes slayer axes. They really need throwing axes though

Lehnsherr wrote:For Elves and for Saurus warriors I use spears (provided the unit size is high enough to benefit from them) based solely off the high points cost per model.

Yea nothing makes an expensive model better than making it more expensive.

Technically though spear elves are their cheapest core unit

Well, the 1 point for the Saurus does increase the cost, but I think you get more out of the model than the HW / Shield combo.

A 1 / 6 chance of parrying an attack vs. 5 extra attacks for 2-3 rounds of combat (depending on what you are fighting). Its very minimal the difference, and really depends on the makeup of the rest of your army. My Saurus warriors w/ spears have done some great things. YMMV

I try using spears in my hvy infantry in blobs of 20, I play an Empire/Britonian merc army (DoW). Works well and keeps most troops away...along with 40 pikemen, 20 hvy calvery, 20 archers, 3 cannon and a few chars.....

HoverBoy wrote:

Lexx wrote:But you could elect to have them use a different weapon each round.

No he cannot, see the "Close Combat Weapons" rule on page 89 of the BRB.
The special weapon must be used, if you have two special weapons you must decide which you're using at the start of combat and you are stuck with it until that combat is over, no matter how many rounds it takes, unless the rules tell you to do otherwise (like lances/mounted spears say you switch to the HW after the 1st round).

Ah my bad. Thanks for the clarification. Should have worded that better.

kenshin620 wrote: The trade off of getting 1/3 additional attacks

I'd just like to point out that it's not 1/3 additional attacks. It's actually 150% attacks. (3 ranks =150% of 2 ranks)

If you do the math really slowly you will realise that 150% of X is exactly the same as X+1/3X.