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Hi all

This is a question for those who get more game time than me.

Im building a list at 1500 for versatility and I have come down to including either a predator with lascannon sponsons or a dread with two twin linked autocannons - both will fulfil the role of hitting light and medium armour at range.

Here are the pros and cons I see:

Dread

Pros
1. 4 shots and with the twin linking thats likely 4 shots on target every time.
2. S7 is a capable calbre round, excellent for taking down speeders and good for AV11 and has a fair chance against AV12.
3. The Dread can handle close combat, even if he has no fist he is hitting at S6 and taking hits back on his front armour of 12. Even if its just tarpit at least he will hold for a turn or 2.
4. The Dread chassis is easier to get cover than a pred.
5. The Dread gives some mobility with his firepower.
6. Side armour 12 beats preds 11.

Cons
1. Max S7 weapon means will battle to take down armour 13 and has no hope of 14. Even reliably putting 4 shots into the target, the chances of rolling 6 and then taking a glance, its risky.
2. Two weapons instead of preds 3.
3. Front armour 12 vs preds 13 means incoming is more likely to glance or penetrate, either are poor outcomes when there may be as few as 5 turns.
4. AP4 is no good against mech infantry.

Pred

Pros

1. two S9 weapons means more hurt on medium and a fair chance against heavy armour.
2. Can take down oblits etc in a single hit with instant kill and no armor save.
3. Three weapons for those weapon destroyed results
4. Tank shock option if required
5. Heavy front armour 13

Cons

1. Larger hull is harder to cover
2. Side armour 11 v Dread 12
3. No twin linked so bad dice can really mean a bad outcome from a significant weapons platform
4. No use if infantry engage in h2h - ie not only are the enemy hitting rear armour 10 v dread 12, but tank cannot hit back whereas dread can

Summary

The dread has its place as a specialist transport hitter. It is perhaps easier to take down with lower front armour however it has great range with its two TLACs and beware chimeras not pointing their frontal armour at it! However the pred is more flexible with better strength sponson weapons that can instant kill a far wider range of targets.

Im leaning towards the inclusion of the predator over the dread and would welcome comments.

This is a mechanized world. =D

Take out some tactical marines and add both!

Thanks pepper
Im taking min 2 troops already

Two full Tacticals in Rhinos will suffice at the 1500 pt level.
What does the rest of the army look like?

LC pred. if you're going for anti-armour? LC pred. Skimmer? AC dread. Flyer? AC pred. heavy infrantry? vindicator.

Predator methinks. More versatile and for the reasons you mentioned above

Its pretty hard to tell without knowing the rest of the list. As you have clearly stated they both have pros and cons but personally I tend to prefer the Dread.

They average the same number of penetrating hits vs Av10 (and a little more glances for the Dread) against AV11 the Pred averages ~10% more penetrating hits than the Dread. This is ofc assuming you are stationary so that you can fire all 3 weapons...

Here's a thread I created a while back on the same topic, might help you out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319114.page

Basically it came down to the dread being able to move around and line up shots vs. the better front armor of an AC/las predator. For me, I still like the predator since it is much better against MCs and can instant death t4 and get around FNP with its lascannons and engage medium armor decently, all of which the rifleman dread can't do. For BA being forced to pay for a fast predator makes it not as worthwhile again.

I say make room for both.

Interesting question.

I say, if you have las/plasma razorbacks elsewhere in your list, the dreads are better. The razorbacks can cover the need for high strength, low AP firepower at a little over half the price of the predator, so the volume firepower of the dread is needed.

I also say take the dread if you have little or no assault ability elsewhere in your army. Even without a DCCW, a dual-AC dread can bog down a lot of units (bloodcrushers, DE assault units, IG blobs) indefinitely.

The major place where I can see the pred having the advantage is if you don't have razorbacks and if you're bringing some HtH units along. Even though lascannons aren't that hot at antitank, their range and ability to present a credible threat across the table makes it worth bringing some at least.

For long range fire support, the predator wins. If I were building a shooty marine list, the predators would come first, and I'd fill in TL/AC dreads as points allowed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the pred and the dread have the same long range ability?

The dread can move aquire targets and still shoot all guns, making it alot more viable imo.

The only thing in question is are the lascannons worth their lack of mobility in c:sm? in c:BA i feel they are beings move 6 fire all

however in SM move 6 fire 1 is pretty terrible

In C:SM the pred must be placed well, or it will come up short. There must be a firing lane created for it. The dreads need much less setup and a slightly mobile. I think the choice entirely depends on the list. If you have a gunline, then I don't see a reason to leave either out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the pred and the dread have the same long range ability?

The same is a misnomer, perhaps they are similar though.

The choice is 2x lascannon +1x autocannon, vs 2x TL autocannon.

If anyone cares enough to bother, it would be interesting to see the average number of damage table results you can expect from a single round of shooting on the different armour values.

Without actually running the numbers, I guesstimate the dread will come out ahead vs. Armor 10-11, the predator vs. armor 12-14. It'll be close at 11-12, with most of the dread's advantage coming from twinlinked weapons just getting more raw hits.

The predator will naturally come out way ahead vs. targets with a combination of T6+ and better than 4+ armor.

So they're actually fairly well balanced alternatives, which is what makes it an interesting question.

TL auto dread vs auto/las Pred

av 11( .59 glance, 1.18 pen)
Pred (.22g, .44p) (.22g, .89p)

av 12 Dread(.59g, .59p)
Pred (.22g, .22p) (.22g, .67p)

av 13 dread (.59g, 0p)
Pred (.22g,.0p) (.22g, .44p)





Automatically Appended Next Post:
didn't bother with AV 10 or 14 as we all should know which one does them best


Automatically Appended Next Post:
updated after my poor handwriting took a toll on retyping

I'd pick dread for the overall accuracy/sustained rate of fire. The 4 TLAC shots also help to pile wounds on MC's like Princes, Tervis, etc. Dreads are Elite and Preds are Heavy so if there is no competition for FOC slots it's a pickem at 1500. I just recently started using 2 "Rifleman" Dreads with the dual TLAC and love them.

So the Pred then has more output against AV 11-14. Dakka dreads are only superior in output for AV 10 - and even then the margin is actually quite small.

AV 10
d:(.59g, 1.77p)
p:(.22g, .66p) (.22g, 1.11p)

same amount of pens, a little bit more glances.

IMO I'd take the Rifleman Dread that's only because I run Dakka preds tho.

I struggle with AV 14 in my lists @ 1500 pts with my only outs being 2 melta and 2 c-melta other than thunder hammers and krak missles

With that said though I play against more foot sloggin guard horde than anyone ever should.
On top of that everyone recently found a Daemon wagon and jumped on board ... didnt know we had those

That said I feel the Pred is a solid choice, but is more circumstantial

The dread can walk around, claim cover from ... rhinos and the sort whilst shooting over them

Where's the Dread going to be on the table?
If he's mid table, Assault Cannon/Autocannon works.
It's the same cost, but you're trading 2 S7 for 4 S6 rending.

It really tears up AV10 and 11, and does better against AV13, and even has a chance against AV14.

I guess it depends on what you expect to face, and is this guy going to be standing off or getting in the mix.

-Matt

Assault cannon/TL autocannon is terrible. The range is confused with a 24" and 48" weapon. 2x TL autocannon is far superior imo. You shouldn't be shooting at AV 14 with a dakka dread or a ac/las pred anyways.

edit: Admittedly calling it terrible is hyperbolic, but it is certainly inferior to the dakka dread. You wouldn't want to target AV 14 with the assaultcannon/autocannon dread anyways, and placing this midfield with no DCCW is a strategical error.

Dracos wrote:Assault cannon/TL autocannon is terrible. The range is confused with a 24" and 48" weapon. 2x TL autocannon is far superior imo. You shouldn't be shooting at AV 14 with a dakka dread or a ac/las pred anyways.

edit: Admittedly calling it terrible is hyperbolic, but it is certainly inferior to the dakka dread. You wouldn't want to target AV 14 with the assaultcannon/autocannon dread anyways, and placing this midfield with no DCCW is a strategical error.

Agreed, DCCW/AC is a fine (if limited) Dreadnought, but the 24" range on the AC means he shouldn't pair it with another weapon.

Thanks all for your replies

First cast of the list is as follows

Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

5 Assault Terminators 5 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 200
Land Raider Multimelta 260

Dreadnought Twinlinked Autocannon, Twinlinked Autocannon 125

10 Tacticals Combimelta, Powerfist, Meltagun, Missile Launcher 210
Rhino 35

10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Missile Launcher 205
Rhino 35

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Land Speeder Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 70

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Total 1500

I really am not prepared to cede out those THs and their LR ride. Their ability to dish out hurt is incomparable, people cry when these guys come down the assault ramp.

The 3 speeders, well I want at least 2, but 70 points does not get me a lot.

Combiweapons are a must in my book. Should I load 2x melta/combimelta? Maybe. Im happy with flamers in one squad for hordes though, even if bolters do ok.

Fists I know will draw a lot of comments. I really feel they are needed because marines WILL end up in combat. The only other part of the list that can handle H2H is the terms and they will be tasked onto the nastiest thing on the table. The fists im not prepared to lose.

The dread and choice to go pred or even second vindi is where im most unsure. Second vindi would be good for redundancy and I know many will comment to that effect. For me though vehicle spam ie DE would nail that list - ie the LR to lance etc is AV12, sure I can hit 2 vehicles if I go first then what? The dread/pred a third, a fourth between the 2 tactical MLs, potentially 5-6 with a MM from speeder? If I go second vindi thats a critical part of my vehicle spam capability lost.

With one vindi im comfortable for example tipping out a bunch of space wolves from their rhino then dropping a demolisher shell on them. Sure two would be better but at 1500 I think 1 will have to suffice.

Happy to hear all thoughts, all help appreciated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit

The list discussion is now here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/334820.page#2248124 so pls keep this thread relevant to the dread v pred option and post comments on the wider list in the thread above

Your list is similar to the one I have used for getting on a year now. Check out the link in my sig for the build. It works quite nicely, and I opted for the pred over a dakka dread.

Thanks Drakos

Had a quick read of first battle report on the link and your list looks good

Your preferance for assault cannon razors and your view of marines as an underwhelming close combat element is obvious

Your tourney WLD score is outstanding, well done on a great year!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:TL auto dread vs auto/las Pred

av 11( .59 glance, 1.18 pen)
Pred (.22g, .44p) (.22g, .89p)

av 12 Dread(.59g, .59p)
Pred (.22g, .22p) (.22g, .67p)

av 13 dread (.59g, 0p)
Pred (.22g,.0p) (.22g, .44p)





Automatically Appended Next Post:
didn't bother with AV 10 or 14 as we all should know which one does them best


Automatically Appended Next Post:
updated after my poor handwriting took a toll on retyping

Thanks this is awesome maths hammering

Im going to add something in this thats only occurred to me post tournament

I took the Pred and yes it was good at its job

Putting a lascannon relibably on target and taking return fire well

What was Really frustrating is how it has to stay still all game and how vulnerable that make it

In 3 of 5 games the pred was destroyed and each time in close combat!

The dread with TLAC can move and fire, so now only do you get better fields of fire through the game but on assault enemies hit armour 12 and hit on 4s rather than auto hitting with Krak grenades on your behind!

What is the consensus when comparing BA TLAC dread vs AC/Las Pred?

When I play I filed them in pairs, as they both fill a unique role. The dreads are geared more to anti transport (AV 10 to 11) where the pread is better on AV 12 and up. As a side note, I also field a typhoon over a MM speeder per set of dreads and preads. I find that gives good AT support.

There is one aspect you forgot to mention, and that is gun placement. On a dread, the guns are up high on the top of the chassis, where on the pred the sponsons hang low near the ground. This means the dreads can easily hide behind a wall and still keep thier rate of fire where preads usually have to sit in the open.

In your list I would go with the dread, as your MM speeder fill the role of anti heavy armor.

Loricatus Aurora wrote:Im going to add something in this thats only occurred to me post tournament

I took the Pred and yes it was good at its job

Putting a lascannon relibably on target and taking return fire well

What was Really frustrating is how it has to stay still all game and how vulnerable that make it

In 3 of 5 games the pred was destroyed and each time in close combat!

The dread with TLAC can move and fire, so now only do you get better fields of fire through the game but on assault enemies hit armour 12 and hit on 4s rather than auto hitting with Krak grenades on your behind!

Yep, you've found the main weakness of the static predator.

I like both but generally lean toward the dread. Also, the dread can walk into difficult terrain... can be a big deal in some games.

I prefer the dread in a smurf list. The predator is my preferred option in BA list because its a fast tank and can move 6 and still fire everything.

Yep think in future I will lean towards the dread over the pred

However the other thing I went from liking to loving is my phobos land raider

It kicked ass every battle as a tank and kept my termies ready for the strategic charge that turned the battle

Im going to load up on a second one for 1750

Something like this

Headquarters
Librarian (Null Zone, Avenger) 100

Elite
5 Assault Terminators 5 Thunder Hammer Storm Shields 200
Land Raider 260

Troops
10 Tacticals Combiflamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Heavy Bolter 205

10 Tacticals Flamer, Plasma Cannon 175
Razorback Twinlinked Heavy Bolters 40

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Squadron Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 140

2x Land Speeder Squadron Heavy Flamer, Multimelta 140

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Vindicator Dozer Blade 120

Land Raider 250

Total 1750

EDIT removing some points costs..