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After reading all the Horus Heresy books I've come to the conclusion that the 31st millenium is actually a much more interesting place than the 41st millenium, primarily because the personalities of the Primarchs and the enormity of the treachery involved in the heresy is so compelling. And considering that the basis for the 40K background for a while now has been the 'end times' where the Imperium is beset on all sides by foes when you stop and think about it, the closest the imperium has ever actually been to collapsing was during the Horus Heresy!

If GW could somehow 'reset' 40K to be set during the epoch of the Horus Heresy I think that would actually make a much better setting. They could re-write the history to now include all the 'current' races into the mix (Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and the Witch Hunters/Daemonhunters could be 'late war' additions to the Imperium's arsenal) and I actually think this setting would be more 'exciting' overall because you could now include Primarchs as 'Apocalypse only' units. They could make kick-butt Primarch models that could now fight on the battlefields against Necron C'Tans and Eldar Avatars...how cool would that be?

Of course, GW *can't* change the setting of their game as at this point, the IP is to entrenched in video games, novels, etc. And I'm sure they feel that trying to launch a separate set of rules for 30K alongside 40K (but using the same models) would probably be too confusing to most players. Now, they could do it with a 'Horus Heresy' expansion, like Apocalypse, Planetstrike, etc, but again, I just imagine it could be kind of confusing to new consumers to have some models (Primarchs) that are only used in a certain expansion.

The other big problem GW has is shelf space. Their line is huge and anything they want to add to the line has to fit into a store's already crowded shelf space.

So what am I suggesting (as if you couldn't tell from the poll question)? That GW shoutld re-boot the Epic franchise set in the Horus Heresy!

The funny thing about that is, of course, that Epic BEGAN set in the Horus Heresy, so it actually makes a ton of sense.

But remember the issue with shelf space? How can you launch another game line and find the space on shelves to put it? And how can you spare the sculpting resources to make the game without affecting the other core games? Here's where the brilliant bit comes in:

Now that each Legion has been much, much more fleshed out since the original inception of Epic, I you can go back to the original concept of Epic (Space marine vs. space marine & titan vs. titan) and it will now actually be really diverse and exciting.

So you just make one big boxed game again that contains a bunch of marine stuff,, some titans, some daemonic crap and a bunch of tiny Primarch models.

In this box set you have an army list/rules for EACH Legion and EACH Primarch (or at least you start with most of the big ones). Since the Legions are now so different from each other, you'd really be able to create different behaving Space Marine armies based on what Legion you're using...and because people have been reading all the Horus Heresy novels they'd be really excited to play all the different Legions and their Primarchs.

If this sells well, the first expansion could add in any Legions that weren't included in the core set along with rules and models for army auxila/cultists,, and include models for some of the more esoteric units found in some of the Legions.

If the game continues to sell well, future expansions could add in Eldar & Orks and eventually maybe models and rules for the 'new' races (Tau, Necrons & Tyranids) cleverly disguised as xenos races found in the 31 millennium.

So what do you think? Would you buy 'Epic Horus Heresy'?

I personally love the new Epic rules and I love the Horus Heresy novels and timeline, so I think it would make total and complete sense to bring Epic back to its roots and make a proper Horus Heresy game with the updated lore using the best rules GW has in their aresenal.

You forgot the option "I am currently planning on buying Epic miniatures to wage the Horus Heresy"!

I think it's a great idea and really the line wouldn't need much of a reboot. I actually had guessed that they would reboot/reintroduce Epic when FW was messing around with flyers (and I was proven wrong).

I also was just musing with a friend this past weekend on how GW could follow FOW example and do a "Early War" and "Late War" version of it...as to include the Heresy without excluding the races. Eldar would fit in either Epoch, as would DE...Crons would just need a line or two added to make sense. Really only Nids and Tau would be out of place.

Definitely redo the Primarch models though ....those old ones are fuuuugly.

AgeOfEgos wrote:You forgot the option "I am currently planning on buying Epic miniatures to wage the Horus Heresy"!

I think it's a great idea and really the line wouldn't need much of a reboot. I actually had guessed that they would reboot/reintroduce Epic when FW was messing around with flyers (and I was proven wrong).

I also was just musing with a friend this past weekend on how GW could follow FOW example and do a "Early War" and "Late War" version of it...as to include the Heresy without excluding the races. Eldar would fit in either Epoch, as would DE...Crons would just need a line or two added to make sense. Really only Nids and Tau would be out of place.

Definitely redo the Primarch models though ....those old ones are fuuuugly.

I do agree that GW *could* do a Horus Heresy expansion in the main game of 40K, but at this point to really get the awesomeness that is in the novels you NEED to have Primarchs in the game...something that so far hasn't happened in general 40K and would probably only be appropriate in a Apocalypse sized game.

However, if they ever wanted to incorporate the Tyranids and Tau I really think it would be easy to 'rebrand' them as a similar sounding 30K race...hell those Mega-Ararchnids or whatever the Emperor's Children were fighting in one of those first novels were already Tyranids in my imagination when I was reading the novel!

I don't like this "renaming the current races" into any such thing like Tyranids into "mega arachnids".

I would buy it regardless, of course.

What an amazing game that would be... you could have a titan civil war with Warlords on both sides fighting through ruined cities.



Alas GW would never make a game that cool...

And yeah, I would buy it, or any new version of epic, in a heartbeat.

yakface wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:You forgot the option "I am currently planning on buying Epic miniatures to wage the Horus Heresy"!

I think it's a great idea and really the line wouldn't need much of a reboot. I actually had guessed that they would reboot/reintroduce Epic when FW was messing around with flyers (and I was proven wrong).

I also was just musing with a friend this past weekend on how GW could follow FOW example and do a "Early War" and "Late War" version of it...as to include the Heresy without excluding the races. Eldar would fit in either Epoch, as would DE...Crons would just need a line or two added to make sense. Really only Nids and Tau would be out of place.

Definitely redo the Primarch models though ....those old ones are fuuuugly.

I do agree that GW *could* do a Horus Heresy expansion in the main game of 40K, but at this point to really get the awesomeness that is in the novels you NEED to have Primarchs in the game...something that so far hasn't happened in general 40K and would probably only be appropriate in a Apocalypse sized game.

However, if they ever wanted to incorporate the Tyranids and Tau I really think it would be easy to 'rebrand' them as a similar sounding 30K race...hell those Mega-Ararchnids or whatever the Emperor's Children were fighting in one of those first novels were already Tyranids in my imagination when I was reading the novel!

True enough and the Tau could easily represent the Interix (Or whatever that advanced Human/Xenos culture was that Horus wiped out).

The entire Heresy (Or lack of) in GW's line makes me question how sensitive they are to the pulse of their customer base. I would assume, years ago, someone at FW would have noticed "Damn either Red Scorpions are popular...or maybe they're buying this armor for something else....". Or perhaps I'm overestimating the popularity of heresy-era marines...but given the popularity of 41st M marines...I don't think I am.

FW is finally getting on board but I would have assumed GW main would have jumped on that.

It used to be they didn't do a Heresy game to keep is mysterious...

But then they did a 293 part series of novels including a 3 hour audio book how this one time the Emperor took Horus out for ice cream but he spilled it on his new armor so the Emperor got real mad.

So um, yeah. What is the thinking here?

So should we do Planet Strike or Warhammer 30k?

Planet Strike obviously!

Karon wrote:I don't like this "renaming the current races" into any such thing like Tyranids into "mega arachnids".

I would buy it regardless, of course.

What precisely bothers you about that (I'm curious)?

You could always hope/dream that if the line did really well they could introduce brand new 30K-centric xenos races, but honestly those people out there playing their Tau, Tyranids and Necrons in the general 40K game would probably love to be able to play their armies in Epic 30K Horus Heresy more than people would be interested in 'new' xenos races realized only in 6mm form...

It just seems like the best possible compromise to me!

I would likely get into it if
A) If others in the area got into it
B) Finished with Dark Angels army
C) Finished or aborted BFG fleet
D) I have any shelf space left

They strode through the battlefields like gods among men, the untouchable champions of humanity.
But some...through pride, through obsession, or through simple error...stumbled.
And they fell.
Now they stand, battle-brother against battle-brother, fighting for the fate of mankind.
Forget your teachings of honour, for there is no place for them here.
Forget the promise of technology, for much will be lost, never to be relearned.
Forget the hope of peace, humanity united across the stars, for in the grim dark present there is only war.

...

I'd probably buy it.

~~Yzz

I would totally get into it, but probably not until affordable plastics for the core parts of a Tau army came out.

Or an Eldar army, with their core plastics updated to reflect their current aesthetic.

I wouldn't.

Getting on, and with the years, comes failing eyesight.
28mm is hard enough to paint, let alone 6mm.

It really doesn't matter what the game is, I won't play it in 6mm anymore.

You could always get one of those magnifying glasses, chromedog. And besides, there's less detail on a 6mm model and you don't need as many colors, so in some ways, smaller scales are easier to paint. You just have to modify your techniques a bit.

Personally, I don't really play GW games anymore, besides a game of BFG every once in awhile (it's a great game), but I totally agree that the Horus Heresy period is one of the most compelling parts of the 40k universe. I also think the smaller scale of Epic lends itself much better to the large battles that are the main focus of the 40k universe, especially compared to the big skirmish/small battle the current 28mm scale gives 40k. I'd certainly be tempted to pick up a box of Epic 30k if it became available. If they had Battlefleet Gothic tie-in rules for planetary assaults and bombardments, that would just be gravy. They wouldn't even have to release new ships, since a lot of the BFG ships date from the Heresy-era anyway. Of course I wouldn't complain if they did release some new ships. Plus, titans are just plain cool!

I would rather they just re-release Epic and Titan Legions or make it compatible with the rebooted system so it doesn't invalidate half the world's old epic armies at a stroke.

I'd otherwise think this would be a good idea, but Marine vs. Marine is still a dreadfully boring premise for a game, Heresy or no Heresy.

You know there is a Horus Heresy board game out that has almost exactly the same contents you describe, right?

I think the main problem with HH as a setting is that it is an optimistic and progressive time (except for the Horus bit)

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'd otherwise think this would be a good idea, but Marine vs. Marine is still a dreadfully boring premise for a game, Heresy or no Heresy.

Y'know, nobody is more bored with Marines than me (dare I say), but after reading the Hersey novels I can't help thinking that I really wouldn't mind a game where everyone was a Marine because all the Legions they've covered have been given such interesting differences. It would surely be a challenge to come up with distinct rules for every Legion to capture that spirit, but if they could I do really think it would be fun to play Marine vs. Marine as you'd actually be fighting distinct Legion vs. distinct Legion. And throw in the Primarchs leading the army on each side to boot and I dunno, it actually sounds pretty freaking awesome to me (and this coming from someone with an anti-MEQ slogan in his sig).





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lord_blackfang wrote:You know there is a Horus Heresy board game out that has almost exactly the same contents you describe, right?

I think the main problem with HH as a setting is that it is an optimistic and progressive time (except for the Horus bit)

I do indeed. And no, it is nothing even close to equivalent of what I'm suggesting!

The game I propose is just Epic Armageddon with new army lists/rules for each Legion of Marines (and their Primarch).

Compare the current Epic Armageddon playing experience with the Horus Heresy boardgame and you will find absolutely no similarities beyond the theme.


Besides allowing the Horus Heresy to be played (which is awesome), this would also be a clever way to re-boot Epic while making it commercially profitable again (finally)!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

filbert wrote:I would rather they just re-release Epic and Titan Legions or make it compatible with the rebooted system so it doesn't invalidate half the world's old epic armies at a stroke.

I think all of us that love Epic would love to see a re-boot of Epic or at least to have specialist games have its lights 'turned back on' to start making Epic stuff again.

But the reality is, that in GW's current market, shelf space is extremely limited and there is no more space for a vast new game that has a bunch of blister packs, etc.

I honestly think that the only way to get something like this back up off the ground is to make it pretty much self-contained in a single set...and the only way to do that would be to limit the types of models needed to play all the armies in the game...and the only way to do that is to have armies that can all use the same models...which just happens to be what the Horus Heresy is all about!

But the great thing about my suggestion (at least IMHO) is that it would essentially use the same rules as Epic Armageddon, just new army lists/rules for the Legions.

Which would obviously NOT 'invalidate' any of the current Epic lists, in that players who were aware of the old Epic rules could still easily choose to pit their old epic armies against one of the new Legion army lists if they wanted.


And like I said, if the system was a smashing success they could then start to introduce some xenos races which lo-and-behold could also technically be used to bolster your 'old' epic armies as well!

See? Win-win for GW and everyone!

I don't play epic at the moment - I have done in the past and I have done with the new rules, but it's not really the game for me (that and there's the fact I fail miserably at painting 6mm). Whilst I can't say for certain whether I would buy a HH based game, I know that the fact that it was HH would convince me to buy it more than any updated ruleset/model release. In other words, I suppose I'm in the category that's never going to buy into epic as it is, but GW could probably convince me to part with my cash if it was HH based. Hell, even if I didn't buy it to play I may buy it just for the fluff. So I guess I've offered a not-very-helpful answer - yes I'd probably buy it but I'm not sure I'd actually play it.

Once Jervis Johnson got his hands on Epic and started make it 40K-in microminiature, I stopped playing. RUles were too complex, too much individualization.

I preferred the old system of building an army, if they would take two big steps back, yes, I'd dust off my 6 companies of Dark Angels and mobs and mobs of Orks!

I would absolutely buy it, doesn't really matter if they reboot it to the heresy era or not as long as it's Epic. without doubt my favorite GW game of all time.

Taking Epic back to where it started is a great idea, although I find the later revisions better than the first.

The cover of the Adeptus Titanicus box was always a favourite of mine.

Hopefully this is Yak priming us for some near future release that he has been toild about.

A priming and new $1 wager prehaps?

I feel like a broken record but I really do think GW could make some decent money if they revisited some of the old 'Specialist Games' and redid them in the manner of Space Hulk.

I'm talking stuff like Epic/Titan Legions, Man O War, BFG, Dark Future.

I for one would buy them.

Epic redo and based solely in the Heresy would be a must buy for me.

I could finally do White Scars, as at the scale my weakness at painting white would not be as apparent. Plus Jaghatai = awesome.


Oh and aye filbert, don't think there is anything you just noted I wouldn't buy again in a heartbeat with tightened up rules and more importantly new models. (Or any models in some cases.)

i hope they rerelease necromunda and gorkamorka with that , oh id love mow and it was rumored but never saw light of day

I'd buy into it. I loved Epic when it was a game that stores stocked. Spent many hours painting and gaming under that system (early and mid 90's which was 2nd edition Epic IIRC).

Not sure how excited I'd be if they released it in the same manner as Space Hulk, though.

Im fairly sure I would pass. Im not really to big on small scale stuff.

If they redid epic titans I'd be straight in there. 'Cause I loves me some titans.

Frankly, Epic or not, the Heresy is an entirely more interesting time.

The nature of its setting presents an easy blueprint for a new company (when one arises) to follow as a way of ensuring a compelling experience.
Not to mention, the Heresy could actually be ADVANCED. The game's initial units and models could be simply a single Legion of marines on Davin or somewhere obscure, and the Heresy could develop as the model range developed. C'est la vie.

I often get the impression that many of us play this game in the 41st millennium model setting, while envisioning the epic-ness of the Heresy.

Plus, I'll wager Forgeworld Iron Armor sales have been off the charts.

Mad4Minis wrote:Im fairly sure I would pass. Im not really to big on small scale stuff.

Unless I am missing an irony-emoticon is Epic not disimilar in scale to Battletech?

notprop wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Im fairly sure I would pass. Im not really to big on small scale stuff.

Unless I am missing an irony-emoticon is Epic not disimilar in scale to Battletech?

I think they're similar in scale (probably not identical) of minis, but the scale of the conflict is still somewhat different. Most of the Battletech battle reports i see seem to top out at a half-dozen or so mechs per side with minimal support... Epic looks t generally use a lot more scale infantry and support vehicles in addition to the titans.

I like the smaller scale stuff as it means less need to abstract ranges, although there's still generally some in most games.