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Hey folks!

This is a selfish thread. Just tossing that out there now to pre-empt the usual.

Having just moved to Louisiana, I've had the opportunity to frequent a couple of the game stores for tournaments. I have a sketchy background with FLGS patrons, culminating in my "real life batrep" linked in my signature that was ultimately a case of people getting angry that a new guy showed up and owned face. Dramafest later...store ban.

So having moved here, I've been *very* careful in the stores I've been to - I'm always friendly, but I've been polite to a fault going in and throughout my games, and more keen to listen and observe the crowd than to participate.

This past Saturday, I took my Dark Eldar to an RTT at one of the local stores (2 hours away, nothing is local, lol). There were 20 entrants, and I came out with a flawless score: 150/150 battlepoints, 6,000/6,000 victory points, while suffering token losses each game. My opponents were friendly (although a bit verbally disheartened at being so thoroughly beaten on), the TO was awesomesauce, and I enjoyed the experience. I've repeated this sort of scenario several times over the last few months with the new Dark Eldar - going to new places and cleaning house.

After the tournament, I heard a few comments (nothing bad) like, "That's a terrifying list you're running," or "If you want to learn how to beat face with Dark Eldar, photocopy his list..."

So here's my question. I enjoy making new friends, love playing 40k, blah blah blah. I don't want to be the guy that causes people not to sign up for tournaments because their chances of winning are slim. Part of me feels like I should bring a bit less killyness, and part of me objects to the idea of giving less than my best in a tournament. Friendly games are a good place to fluff it out, but a tournament...I'm not sure how I feel. Except that I don't want to run into the kind of crap I had to put up with where I used to live.

Eventually, I plan on getting my Necrons finished so that I can start running in tournaments with those; putting myself in what I consider to be a forced disadvantage and helping to even things out. For now though, I've got my Dark Eldar. Even my orks are still packed up in boxes and in storage until we find a place to live...but the same applies to them.

So, in the meantime, what would you do? Make a half-hearted list and hope you don't run into any alpha tournament lists? Keep running with your A-game? Something else?

Dashofpepper wrote:So here's my question. I enjoy making new friends, love playing 40k, blah blah blah. I don't want to be the guy that causes people not to sign up for tournaments because their chances of winning are slim. Part of me feels like I should bring a bit less killyness, and part of me objects to the idea of giving less than my best in a tournament. Friendly games are a good place to fluff it out, but a tournament...I'm not sure how I feel. Except that I don't want to run into the kind of crap I had to put up with where I used to live.

Look for alternate builds within your codex. You've found one that works; now find another one, and another one, and another one....

By and large, in my experience people don't mind losing to the same player repeatedly, if there's something new about the experience. Since you don't have ready access to your other armies at the moment, then look for interesting thematic builds, and learn to win with them, even against "alpha" armies.

Convert some Wracks! Assemble some warpbeasts!

Take a hellionswarm, and nothing else..

Hellion troops, with the SC that allows this, and the only antitank being the underwing weapons (which are capable of slagging tanks, but take more work)..

My wife ran this one on my poor poor orks, and they were owned hard, because it wasn't what i expected, but I was so wowed by the fluffy, unusual list that i didn't mind overmuch

I don't know, I've been reading these forums for a while and remember your tournament batreps with both orks and DE. It seems that people mostly just need to learn how to deal with it. If you show up, all the better, they need to bring their A game and learn to play against, even beat you.

Running what you don't want to just to give people a chance is more insulting then playing your best and winning imo.

I would agree with trying out some off-the wall builds. You win tournaments no problem. You have a terrifying list. So good, that it's hard to improve. Why not try some units you normally wouldn't take?

For example, an IG player can use Hellhounds and Stormtroopers in a list, see how they run. When you're playing at a GT, bring your A-Game. But at a local tournament, just have fun, don't use a super-hardcore list.

I would like to see your list actually (am I right to assume its in one of the links listed in your signature?). I would tone it down a bit personally as a temporary solution. Try out some new playstyles for yourself, give other people a bit of a chance to go up against you, and after you feel comfortable knowing that your gaming partners don't see you as the WAAC type, go back to using your awesomesauce list. Also, don't use that tournament list in friendly games. I am a firm believer in having 'ard lists' for tourneys and subpar lists for friendly games (taking non-optimal builds because you think the minis are cool, or just for the hell of it etc.).

Also, your real life batrep link takes me to a page that says 'account suspended'.

So generally this i my opinion on it. And it only applies if you generally win the events you play in and especially if you win big.

1) Don't bring the exact same list to a tournament twice in a row. Why? You already beat face with it. Play something different or off the wall. If you lose you can always bring back the pain list but this shows people your more in it for fun.

2) Don't, for the love of god, tell people you are toning down your game for them. It might be true and you might mean it in jest but people won't take it well. If people ask you why you changed your list the best answer is I wanted to try something new.

3) I'd personally suggest alternating armies. Not everyone can do it but it's a good thing to do if you have more than one. If you don't then see #1.

4) Try units people say are junk and fit them in. Or just units that you like the idea of. You already know your top dog (or near the top of the heap) so flex the mental muscle. I've found personally it's important because this helps you tactically because it's not a walk over.

For example a lot of my IG (both mech and foot) feature Ogryns and/or Rough Riders. It's hard for people to be angry about losing when you bring "bad" units.

5) Consider RTT's only moderate practice for big events. Now this could sound slightly bad but I look at RTT's in two ways.

One is GT practice. I use them to tweak and tune a brutal list. But once I find that list, it doesn't come back out at the local level. Why? Local levels are about the community. People will understand if your tweaking a list for a large event. Heck, they'll probably help you do it. But people will quickly lose patience if after you've found your high power death machine if you keep showing up with it. Then your playing your hobby and not the communities hobby if that makes any sense.

The other way I view local RTT's is as a place for that off the wall, crazy list idea I have. 20 Gating Sternguard. 9 Lictor Tyrannid Armies. Stuff of that nature. It's a chance to stretch the legs of something crazy that I might not take to a big event because it's not the most balanced or solid list I can come up with. But I've found these tournaments to be more fun for me mostly.

Example: I took a nasty wolves list to the first local RTT I could up here. Reason is I wanted to see what the community played but didn't want to get squashed. But that SW list is back to 5-game event level because it wouldn't be fun for everyone locally to play against again. Had great games and fun opponents but that army is fine to play once, maybe twice, but quickly gets old and almost frustrating for other players.

When I'm tweaking and tuning a list I lose once in a while, normally at a tournament. This keeps me and the community happy. Once it goes 1-2 tournies without a loss I hang that build up because it'll be unfun for others if I show up again.

For me it isn't "toning" down for other players. I like to see if I can make obscure lists work or obscure units. It's the challenge and causes me to think on my feet and I think this makes me a better player.

Basically change things up. Run grotesques! or Wracks! or Scourges! or a Talos/Cronos! Try a WWP army. Or even just swap out some units and add something new in. But don't bring the same static list over and over again and don't tell people your toning it down for them.

Hulksmash wrote:But don't bring the same static list over and over again and don't tell people your toning it down for them.

This.

When I was younger, my dad taught me to play racquetball. He was (and still is) much better at the game than I am, to the point that games could be short and involve fairly little work on his part. Rather than just wailing on me, and rather than playing obviously poorly, he used his games with me to work on a particular aspect of his game: for example, today might be the left-corner shots, where he practices returning to the left corner in as effective a manner as possible from anywhere on the court. My musically-inclined sister calls it "playing études," which is a good analogy.

Do more of that in your local scene. Find the use (even if it proves to be a sub-optimal use) for all the various codex options, and combinations. Not only will this help you better understand your codex, it can also yield insights into GW design philosophy, which in turn yields long-term dividends over edition changes.

Lunchmoney wrote:I don't know, I've been reading these forums for a while and remember your tournament batreps with both orks and DE. It seems that people mostly just need to learn how to deal with it. If you show up, all the better, they need to bring their A game and learn to play against, even beat you.

Running what you don't want to just to give people a chance is more insulting then playing your best and winning imo.

This. You're playing a bunch of inexperienced players who don't play competitive 40k. I would just keep beating them over the head month after month and collecting prize support until they wise up.

Big fish. Small pond. Help make the pond bigger.

I don't see the big deal. All I see is other grown men throwing hissy fits because you're better than them at a game played with toy soldiers. I don't you it's as much you as it is the people you were playing with. In my local gaming group the same guy is pretty much a shoe-in to win any tournament he competes in, with one of the same two armies for years. He is also easily the most popular gamer in our group. He's a really nice guy and fun to play against. He'll beat your pants off the whole game and you'll have a great time. After the game he'll generally give tactical advice if needed, and then compliment you on your painted models.

I think as long as you have the right attitude and mindset, and DON'T make it feel like we're playing poker at a tournament in a casino, then you can bring the biggest face-beating list of all time and I'd love to lose to it over and over again. I'm not the kind of person to judge how other people should enjoy the hobby. If you want to bring a fun fluffy theme list, go for it. You want to take 4 Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves and minimum troops and try and beat face? It's your money, your spare time, do what you want. As long as you aren't a jerk we'll have an enjoyable couple of hours.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Also, your real life batrep link takes me to a page that says 'account suspended'.

Oh! Looks like Danny Internets forgot to pay his bill. =p

I agree with a lot that hulksmash said. By all means try your best to win but maybe tone your army down. Take some "fun" options, test out new options, maybe take some less than optimal units to see how well you can play with the handicap. This makes the game seem more fair (even if they still get crushed) and therefore more fun.

I agree with Hulksmash about not mentioning that you're toning down your army. If you said that to someone what they would hear is "I'm not going with my A game because you're just not up to it and I don't think you're worthy anyway". And if you win after that statement your opponent will feel resentment towards you and be extremely embarassed (I would think with good reason).

What you could to is offer to help the other people at your FLGS. Ask them what they would like to play against or if they'd like to try out some combinations of their troops. Then tell them that you're not going to take it easy on them and blaze away. Sometimes, I'm sure, there will be that guy who wants you to use an army that you can't win with just to say that he beat you but overall I think that it would be good for you and them. In fact I wish there was someone like that at my FLGS. I'd love to be tutored by someone who has your level of proficiency.

Anyway my 2 cents.

In Alaska, there are mainly two groups: friendly gamers, and highly competitive players.

If you find yourself playing in an event, and all your opponents are running sub-optimized lists, chances are that this is a "friendly" tournament. If you are expecting to come back to this tournament next year, and the years following, try to follow suit and take more fluffy or less-optimized lists. Otherwise you will breed the resentment you talk about and this will eventually lead to the TO banning you just to keep the peace.

Yes, there are those who argue that "friendly" players should not play in tournaments, but that is just a crock. These players have just as much right to put on a tournament as anybody else, but not everybody has the money/knowledge to build an optimized list, and that's ok.

So basically, don't kick baby seals with steel toed boots. At least wear slippers. They'll have less to be angry about.

You've beaten face with a very good list. This means you can walk back in with a much weaker list, play that, and not worry about the outcome as much. They know you could win with DE. With another list if you lose, no big deal, but winning tournaments with a much weaker list shows off your tourney skills even more.

Even when you win, you can build a lot of good will by being a good winner and giving tips about what people did well or not so well. It is just a new crowd to 40K in general or to a hardercore style of play?

Justin,

Something I do with my guard is, after every tournament where I "clean house" and go undefeated, crush people, whatever, I voluntarily weaken my list. I never make it "bad," but I remove a more reliable component and replace it with one that can do the job, but not as well, or that does a different job.

I went from trips russ trips vendetta min straken max meltavet to losing the russes and picking up al'rahem and BS3 meltaguns, and less meltavets ... and now am working with Ogryns and Yarrick. The goal is to push my list to the breaking point against everyone, so long as I retain the capability to tackle anyone if I really have to.

You would be disingenuous to your nature to take a bad list, but why don't you start tweaking back your list. The results for me have been that I have army builds which can handle ANYONE if I play well enough ... but which really only barely handle everyone. So, if I go up against someone with a fluffy list or playstlye, the game will at least feel competitive at the "Cost" of not massacring anybody (not that I see this as a cost ... I don't care for the encouragement of massacring opponents anywho).

If you do it right, you'll wind up at a list style that can accomplish something similar - being ABLE to fight hard / play skilled and go toe to toe with the big boys, but that with little effort on your part will stay close with the softer opponents. It's doable, and requires a different outlook, but I'd say give it a try.

It's far better than trying to juggle two different army lists, one of which is "clearly" a fluff bunny list for amateur hour ... and you'll probably enjoy more of your games out of it, fighting close battles with even visibly subpar opponent lists.

Just $.02

@Lunch/Nash/Griever

Whether we like it or not ours is a social hobby. If you drop into an area that doesn't play the way you do you can and will cause issues with that attitude. Is it right and should we all be adults? No and Yes. Unfortunately it's is what it is. Now I'm not saying play an all grot army and throw games. I think Janth hit it on the head. Use it as a way to develop unused or atrophied skills or to develop new ones.

And good points from Mike. I'd say if your pretty dedicated to an army like you are Dash then his suggestion is a good one. It's only people like me with horrible army ADD that can jump entire codexes 3-4 times a month

You should move to NJ so I can give you a butt kicking : )

Other than that... I think I agree with Mike C here. Tone it down a bit. Post what you have as a list and change some of it.

Truthfully people get pissed when its the same "list" that beats them every time. Even if it's their own tactics.

I agree with everything Hulksmash has said in this thread.

It's a social hobby, and pissing off everyone at your LGS isn't generally a good idea.

Just out of curiosity, what was in this uber Dark Eldar list? (Sorry, self part of me now comming out)

I'd echo the advice to bring a different list. I've been to a LOT of tournaments and I don't think I've ever brought the same list twice.

Hulksmash wrote:@Lunch/Nash/Griever

Whether we like it or not ours is a social hobby. If you drop into an area that doesn't play the way you do you can and will cause issues with that attitude. Is it right and should we all be adults? No and Yes. Unfortunately it's is what it is. Now I'm not saying play an all grot army and throw games. I think Janth hit it on the head. Use it as a way to develop unused or atrophied skills or to develop new ones.

And good points from Mike. I'd say if your pretty dedicated to an army like you are Dash then his suggestion is a good one. It's only people like me with horrible army ADD that can jump entire codexes 3-4 times a month

I think people need to separate list construction with attitude. If you are fun to play against I don't really care about the outcome of the game or what list you are using. Yes of course I want to win, but losing to a fun opponent is the next best thing.

At the broadside bash last year Toby Walker beat the crap out of me with his footdar. I enjoyed every minute of it because he was a competent, fair and friendly opponent. His quality list construction wasn't a concern of mine simply his attitude during the game. I played other people at that tournament with far weaker lists (and knowledge of the rules) and those match-ups were far less enjoyable.

Bascially if Dash is winning and acting like a jerk about it he's going to run into a lot more flak than if he's winning and being gracious. I don't know what he's doing here. It's not about the list for me. It's about the player.


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Monster Rain wrote:I agree with everything Hulksmash has said in this thread.

It's a social hobby, and pissing off everyone at your LGS isn't generally a good idea.

I agree with this but is it the players personality or list construction that is doing this?

Another idea is to start being a judge in the local tournaments instead of a player. Play games with people to develop their skills and keep yourself in practice. The truth is that even if you change your list regularly but always win the tournaments in a couple of years the tournaments will have less turn out because people feel like there is no point. You might also start to see a whole different side of the hobby by taking a step back. Still play in tournaments once in a while to let people know that you still have it.

i wonder if there is a way to offer some guidance to some of the locals. If your going perfect through events is it going to be that much fun or a challenge for you? (not sure if this is something you'd do) Maybe you can team up with the "local" store or the TO and find a way to give advice to people that want to bring there gaming to the next level. Offer to help people with list building and tactics and such. Of course you'd need to do this is a way that doesn't make you appear as some big headed fool. I'm thinking something along the lines of a course pro for a golf course.

It can be both Nash. I generally consider myself a pretty good guy to play and I bring brutal lists a lot of the time. But part of being a considerate opponent when you do beat peoples face in is that you recognize that it won't be fun for the opponent if it's the "same" brutal list. If you change it up people are amazingly more forgiving of you toting that death dealing doom list.

To make it worse your generally going to get so good with some of your lists that you're almost on auto-pilot. Which body language shows pretty clearly. Even if your a nice guy watching someone pound you while they don't really try is also something that can get on people's nerves as well.

Basically keep the game fresh for you and your opponent. It can also help mitigate bad personality match-ups. Which also happen.

@Ironicsilence

That is actually a pretty proven horrible thing to do as the new guy in the area. Play in the local scene. Get a rep for being a good guy. Keep switching your lists up. If people ask for help then give it. Maybe sometimes if you have time switch armies with your opponent (this can be very fun and enlightening). But for the love of god don't start giving advice without people asking first. People in general in our hobby don't take it well

Not sure it adds much to the thread, but I really enjoy Ailaros' games and his batreps. If you haven't followed the Blood Conquers series, you should give them a read.

One of the things I find the most interesting about his games, however, is that it's rarely the same list (if ever). If it was 28 games with the same IG list, I probably would've stopped reading well before batrep 28. Now, what I'm getting at is to the point that one of the other posters made - change your list up. Use things that aren't 'optimal'. Save the 'optimal' list on your hard drive for Adepticon or NOVA, then throw together a new list.

It's one of the ways I keep my Eldar fresh. I've been playing them since you rolled up an army list out of the rulebook. I have a few lists that I consider fairly optimal (there could be some changes, but I'm happy with their performance) and they are my clutch lists. If I need a quick list or a list for a tourney where I think the competition is going to be strong, I go to those lists. More often than not, however, I play around with builds. I find fun builds or builds that use unconventional units. That is one of the great things I love about Warhammer 40K. Lists with a lot of personality or character become sort of an extension of yourself, I think. To use units you love because you love them, to me, is more enjoyable than using units that you know will wreck face, but you enjoy fielding less.

If you have started off well in your new locale that sounds like a big step in the right direction. I think competive players can blend in with hobby people at tournaments if they remain low key throughout the event. Most people like a gracious winner. Good luck with your future endeavors. If you are trying to change your image that's a good thing.

Brandt had good advice, I would use the Like feature but Dakka doesn't have one yet.

ironicsilence wrote:iMaybe you can team up with the "local" store or the TO and find a way to give advice to people that want to bring there gaming to the next level.

I tried that last time I was the new guy in the area (Jacksonville, FL) and it ended in many, many tears.

I agree with the first poster. Now that you have owned with one list try to field another list with a different twist. At our FLG there is a really mouthy jerk who plays what else Eldar. He fields one of two lists either playing the seer council on jetbikes or nothing out of a hover transport/tank and playing VP denial. Neither list is fun and neither takes a lot f skill to play. needles to say his self agrandsiing speeches about how we all suck and how he can accept our tournament entry fees in lou of showing up earned him NO freinds in the community. This particular group of gamers plays the tournis a 50/50 split of fun balanced gamers and cheesey ardboys style of play. If you go to play there with a fun list you will loose and you will not win any tournis. thats how it is.
SO... as long as you keep changing it up and taking different lists and you are really nice. people should not have a problem with you entering. If i lost to you or saw you win more than once with the same or similar list i would tailor my list to beat yours. Thats what i did to the cheesy eldar player. it worked, he lost and left angery about beign a looser. Tough.
SO i think you are fine as long as the majority of players are playing WAAC lists, take whatever you like. If your current list always wins....change it up so you can prove that its not just the list that is winning.