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I think HulkSmash has it exactly how I would of said it. Im no pro player or anything, but I agree with that completely. I can tell you just from the fact that I do this ALOT, that changing your army frequently and trying less "optimum" units can be a real blast. My Ork builds range from a trukk/bw list to horde to BigMek horde to super shooty. I feel like I play a different army almost everytime, and I also know enough to argue with others about why always taking a BW spam is not so fun, or that the "sucky" units in the Ork dex really arnt that bad.


And since you obviously like the aspect of winning pulling off a win with a harder list for you will be far more gratifying in the end. Your opponent will feel accomplished because he did well against you (and I always thought the best games were the knock down drag out fights) and you will walk away knowing that you won with a list you wouldnt have dreamed using in a tourny AND you as well will enjoy the victory more simply because the match was closer then you just walking in and auto winning.

I never need to tone my list down, as neither of my armies has a win-button option. Some units are nastier than others, but nothing overly obscene.

I run orks, fluffy, as a mek oriented dreadbash usually. I love taking the fun random-as-hell units like wierdboyz, SAG Meks, looted wagons and flash gitz (and sometimes they also rock, though not often..

I also run Necrons, and there's such a 'Necrons?? But they SUCK!!' reaction in my area that even if i win there isn't much rancor. I collected them because I like the look and feel of them, not to insta-win tournaments. There is a Guard player at the local tournament i've lost to every time, as his idea of a stimulating game is to first-turn obliterate the enemy under a hail of S 10 pieplates

If it gets him off, good for him. Personally i prefer a game that lasts more than 1/2 a turn, but at least I don't have to suffer him for long, and i can watch the other games while I wait for the next round

I would follow Brandts advice, or even attempt to "help" others with advice on list building... tactics... that sort of thing, but only if it were asked for. so then your helping and it doesnt come across as lecturing.

I personally wouldnt change my list, or change it drastically to suite the play styles of others. hopefully your ability to list build/ play will encourage others to adopt a more competitive nature in tournament settings.

We should be trying to raise the bar of our environment, instead of lowering our own.

Just want to say there have been lots of fantastic responses to this thread, instead of flaming... awesome!

Janthkin, mikhaila, Hulksmash, and MVBrandt (not to mention many others) made great posts on page 1 advocating not just mixing up your list, but how to go about it. And there's a majority of posts echoing the exact same thing, too. Change up your list, but don't tell people you're changing it up to make it weaker, do it as a challenge to yourself. It'll keep things fresh for you and your opponents.

This would be great advice even for your Necron army, once it's going. Don't tell people you're playing it because you consider it the weakest army in the game. And if 3 monoliths or what have you cleans house for a tourney or two, try 2. Try 1. Try a different build. Try a unit that doesn't work for anybody else, but works because of it's place in your list, your tactics, etc. Challenge yourself! Have fun with it! And it'll make it fun for everybody else, too.

There's a guy who regularly cleans fantasy clock around here (scooter). Mikhaila could say more, but the several times I've encountered him it's been with different lists (and even armies). I would've liked to see him trying some weaker units, but even just having a different army really helps with the perception (and experience) your opponents will have playing you. I imagine that trying different builds of the same army would have a similar effect, too, and this seems to have worked for both MVBrandt and Hulksmash... both solid tournament players who I know you respect, and who are posting that this is what they regularly do.

I, too, agree with Hulksmash, RiTides, and some of the others.

Dash- you know Alex F, my team mate on the Cold Steel Mercs. He went a stretch of about a year or so winning every 40k RT at Danger Planet in MA, a reasonably competitive store. The kicker, that really impressed folks, was that in those 6+ events, he used not just a different army list every time but a different codex every time. When someone does something like that, players don't resent it. They're just plain impressed.

You may not be able to switch armies as often and easily as Alex or Hulk, but you can definitely switch your list up.

Mannahnin wrote:Dash- you know Alex F, my team mate on the Cold Steel Mercs. He went a stretch of about a year or so winning every 40k RT at Danger Planet in MA, a reasonably competitive store. The kicker, that really impressed folks, was that in those 6+ events, he used not just a different army list every time but a different codex every time.

Were they all pink & flowery?

Most of them, yeah.

I agree with Mannahnin.

Once you have established your street cred, start using different armies. That is a lot more impressive, and it provides more diversity for your opponents. I don't use my Bjorn Wolves that much for the same reason. I find it more fun and engaging to try different, thematic builds and see if I can still win. That is more challenging and fun for me and my opponent.

But at big events of course, bring the heat.

Personally I take this like any competitive game. I want my opponent to bring their A-game. I play against an IG player on occasion who runs 3 vendettas, and some Russes. I tend to lose to his list but I have a blast trying to rise to the challenge (Haven't played him w/ my Tau yet they are 5-0). I like winning and I try to win. But I want my opponents to be at their best.

While my response on the first page was "don't change, beat em until they learn," after reading the rest of the posts and thinking about my local meta/club situation, I tend to agree with the majority here. I only say this because I realized that the same things Dash has mentioned is the same reason I don't break out my wolves in our local events.

I found after optimizing my wolves to 3 various builds that have nearly 10:1 win/loss ratios it was getting harder and harder to find just friendly games if the FLGS patrons saw my wolf case with me. After I started running different stuff the number of games I was able to get started going up again. Now my advice and critique is welcomed as opposed to resented. I suppose that had I continued to table people with those "Hard" lists, people wouldn't be nearly as welcoming now.

The list is only half the story. Anyone can check on here and get the "optimal" list for their codex. If you can't use it though then you won't go unbeaten by any means ...

I like to play in competitive games, even if I lose. As long as you're prepared to have a friendly chat about what they could do better afterwards then what's the problem? I would rather lose to a pro than just blindly beat up little kids ...

I think a lot of it has to do with the newness of the DE codex.

After they play you a couple of times they will learn your tricks and they should be able to beat you if they have any talent.

I agree with much of what has been said. You seem to have made a good start and impression in your local area; they most certainly know you're a capable player so I'd advise toning down the 'kick-ass' a bit; bring some weaker or themed builds, try out different units and armies. Maybe swap armies with some of the other players for some games; it'll be a new experience and a great opportunity to socialise and meet new people. If you win then you've clarified your ability as a player and had fun doing so, if you lose then no-one cares.
In fact, I'd really advise the above.

Also, remember some of the upset that's occurred in the past; try to avoid coming across as condescending or 'know-it-all'. By all means, offer other players advise, but I'd really try to avoid being patronising as you do so. I remember a thread of yours in the past where you were describing how you don't really know what to do with your 'winnings' from tournaments etc. To me, this kind of displays that you don't really 'need' to win. You don't do it for the material gains and everyone knows you're a very capable player, so I'd say go in there with more unique/themed lists and play competitively but not 'WAAC'.
I can't imagine anyone complaining to losing to a suitable themed list or one that uses some of the considered weaker units. If you avoid 'spam' and the like, then that's also good.


Finally, I second what these have said:

Janthkin wrote:Look for alternate builds within your codex. You've found one that works; now find another one, and another one, and another one....

By and large, in my experience people don't mind losing to the same player repeatedly, if there's something new about the experience. Since you don't have ready access to your other armies at the moment, then look for interesting thematic builds, and learn to win with them, even against "alpha" armies.

Convert some Wracks! Assemble some warpbeasts!

4M2A wrote:I agree with a lot that hulksmash said. By all means try your best to win but maybe tone your army down. Take some "fun" options, test out new options, maybe take some less than optimal units to see how well you can play with the handicap. This makes the game seem more fair (even if they still get crushed) and therefore more fun.

Monster Rain wrote:I agree with everything Hulksmash has said in this thread.

It's a social hobby, and pissing off everyone at your LGS isn't generally a good idea.

RiTides wrote:Just want to say there have been lots of fantastic responses to this thread, instead of flaming... awesome!

Janthkin, mikhaila, Hulksmash, and MVBrandt (not to mention many others) made great posts on page 1 advocating not just mixing up your list, but how to go about it. And there's a majority of posts echoing the exact same thing, too. Change up your list, but don't tell people you're changing it up to make it weaker, do it as a challenge to yourself. It'll keep things fresh for you and your opponents.

This would be great advice even for your Necron army, once it's going. Don't tell people you're playing it because you consider it the weakest army in the game. And if 3 monoliths or what have you cleans house for a tourney or two, try 2. Try 1. Try a different build. Try a unit that doesn't work for anybody else, but works because of it's place in your list, your tactics, etc. Challenge yourself! Have fun with it! And it'll make it fun for everybody else, too.

There's a guy who regularly cleans fantasy clock around here (scooter). Mikhaila could say more, but the several times I've encountered him it's been with different lists (and even armies). I would've liked to see him trying some weaker units, but even just having a different army really helps with the perception (and experience) your opponents will have playing you. I imagine that trying different builds of the same army would have a similar effect, too, and this seems to have worked for both MVBrandt and Hulksmash... both solid tournament players who I know you respect, and who are posting that this is what they regularly do.

What Hulksmash, Manahnin, Reecius etc said.

Also: when you have 'bonded' with the gamingscene it may well be that you meet someone who is looking to step up his game. You can than bring your more brutal stuff and educate him. Sure you'll have to invest first, but you may well end up with someone whom you can sharpen your skills against.

Cilithan

There's a lot of great advice here.

Hulk is totally spot on. I would add that, having met you Dash and knowing how competitive you are, it is in your interest to do this even if your ego demands that you win all the time. RTTs are the best chance you will ever get to expirement with things you would otherwise never even try at a GT and this can greatly improve your game in a lot of different ways. This (along with alternating with your Orks) will shake the impression that you are some kind of netlister who only knows how to point and click one army.

I concur as well that there's a lot of wisdom in this thread.

I would also like to second the notion that you absolutely cannot 'force' yourself onto teaching people because ultimately in order to be a teacher people have to respect you and you can never force respect onto anyone.

Simply winning all your games, especially with one army list, will rarely gain you respect (except perhaps with those people in the gaming group who are fascinated purely with wins/losses). Instead, how you handle yourself while you go about your winning is what earns the respect.

And if you show back up and play with a variety of army lists and/or a variety of army types, that respect will start to grow as people realize that it isn't just your lists, but rather it is the person behind those lists that is responsible for the winning.

When people start to realize that on their own then, and only then, will you have the respect of those people around you and then *they* will be the ones to approach you and ask you for your advice.

Anytime someone designates themselves 'store champion' simply because of how often they beat everyone else down, it never, ever goes down well with those gamers in their group. Similarly you can never decide you're going to 'show' everyone how to play better and make it a goal to teach them. It just doesn't work because they don't respect you and the reason you know they don't respect you is because they didn't ask you to teach them. If you had their respect then they would have.


So that's the key...go about your winning humbly, show your talent through a wide variety of army builds and if you keep up the winning and keep up the humble attitude before you know it people will be begging you to teach them stuff or be the 'store champion' that everyone wants to challenge because they can't wait to play you even if they may lose.

yakface wrote:
Anytime someone designates themselves 'store champion' simply because of how often they beat everyone else down, it never, ever goes down well with those gamers in their group. Similarly you can never decide you're going to 'show' everyone how to play better and make it a goal to teach them. It just doesn't work because they don't respect you and the reason you know they don't respect you is because they didn't ask you to teach them. If you had their respect then they would have.

Remembering your previous threads on similar matters, this is exactly what I wanted to rush here to stress. I also wanted to suggest only playing friendly games for a while. You don't need the tournament winnings, and that might give some time for an open reflection after the game on what they could have done better. If you do try to give pointers, don't let it come across as a lecture. Don't try to push some tactical superiority fuelled "champion" idea. You're wanting to impress upon them that you're one of them; not their better. On the "same side of the fence," so to speak. The trick would be trying to find a way to humbly teach people to become better without them ever realizing it. Not much for the ego trip, but it will definitely make your tournaments more interesting.

I think you're over thinking it. Firstly our store owner will not ban you for being a good player. What he will do is tell the whiners to shut their damn mouths, as will I. I don't know who you played in round 1, but I do know your round 2 opponent can be a bit of a sore loser.

I'm of two opinions about this. On the one hand I see your point, and agree that destroying everyone can cause people to become jaded. The other side is that if you start, "dumbing" down the list it hurts players like myself and others that want to be better. In the end I lean towards a mentality of, "Bringing up the competition not bringing down your game."

That all said I would like to reiterate that you beat the pants off of me. I'd love to blame it on dice/gods/<insert excuse> but I can't in good conscience. I normally win the local tournaments with a good bit of reliability, it was a smack in the face that someone showed up that could play me. I'd like to apologize for taking you lightly and not bringing the best game I could.

I'll be prepared next time. While you might still win, it won't be the landslide it was :p

My vote is get the worst armies out there and continue to beat face with them. Then they cant moan at you for being WAAC

Hostile personal comments are not necessary or appropriate.

LucasLAD wrote:I think you're over thinking it. Firstly our store owner will not ban you for being a good player. What he will do is tell the whiners to shut their damn mouths, as will I. I don't know who you played in round 1, but I do know your round 2 opponent can be a bit of a sore loser.

I'm of two opinions about this. On the one hand I see your point, and agree that destroying everyone can cause people to become jaded. The other side is that if you start, "dumbing" down the list it hurts players like myself and others that want to be better. In the end I lean towards a mentality of, "Bringing up the competition not bringing down your game."

That all said I would like to reiterate that you beat the pants off of me. I'd love to blame it on dice/gods/<insert excuse> but I can't in good conscience. I normally win the local tournaments with a good bit of reliability, it was a smack in the face that someone showed up that could play me. I'd like to apologize for taking you lightly and not bringing the best game I could.

I'll be prepared next time. While you might still win, it won't be the landslide it was :p

Hey Luke! =D

I'm not referring to just Little Wars though - I mean in general as I go to local events. I went to the store in Leesville the weekend before, and my friend that you met and I are going to go to the Dragon's Lair in Bossier City on the 29th....and we'll continue getting around checking out the various stores.

I think based on the feedback I've gotten here, I'm going to do the following:

1. The first time I go to a store for a tournament, I'm going to bring my A-game and an A-list, and do my best.
2. In friendly games at the store, I'm not going to use a tournament list - I'll be changing things out and running suboptimal units.
3. At subsequent tournaments at a store, if I cleaned up the last time, I'm going to either bring different army, or a completely different list. For example, the next tournament I go to at Little Wars, if I have access to my stuff and can repair it all in time, I'll bring Orks instead of Dark Eldar - and depending on the state of my Necrons, I'd like to field them in tournaments too.

I think that's perfect, Dash- let us know how the more experimental lists end up doing!

Personally, I'd try a bit of #2 in your #3 category, as well- basically, seeing if you can work any suboptimal units into a tournament list (one you've already cleaned up at), as well.

I agree with you summary DashoPepper
I reallly enjoyed running a WAAC list for a while that was essentially the same every time. No one else enjoyed playing against it so eventually i stopped. Now i try to vary my list so that its never the same in tournis. I also dumb it down in non tourni play, that way i get a better struggle and have more opponnents that enjoy playing agaisnt me.
One of the worst tourni beatings i ever took was against the NICEST eldar player you ever met. He took a middle of the road list and was very skilled with it. he just disected me. Before our match we took a walk together to look at the other tables etc. I told him that i had rarely played eldar, so he told me exactly what i needed to try to do to beat him. He was honest with me in every way. He smiled as he tore me up and when he won both the best painted and the best overall awards everyone applauded him. That is the acme of a good player.

What part of Louisiana did you move to?

sennacherib wrote:I agree with you summary DashoPepper
I reallly enjoyed running a WAAC list for a while that was essentially the same every time. No one else enjoyed playing against it so eventually i stopped. Now i try to vary my list so that its never the same in tournis. I also dumb it down in non tourni play, that way i get a better struggle and have more opponnents that enjoy playing agaisnt me.
One of the worst tourni beatings i ever took was against the NICEST eldar player you ever met. He took a middle of the road list and was very skilled with it. he just disected me. Before our match we took a walk together to look at the other tables etc. I told him that i had rarely played eldar, so he told me exactly what i needed to try to do to beat him. He was honest with me in every way. He smiled as he tore me up and when he won both the best painted and the best overall awards everyone applauded him. That is the acme of a good player.

There are no WAAC lists, only WAAC players.

Agreed.

Do a 30 mandrake list with the mandrake SC then w/e else you crack some skulls with that list and I will personally come down and shake ur hand.

poontangler wrote:What part of Louisiana did you move to?

Pineville / Alexandria. Central LA, BFE LA, etc.

I've been to the store in Leesville, last weekend I went to the (a?) store in Baton Rouge. I'm headed to Shreveport / Bossier City on the 29th for a tournament at the Dragon's Lair. I see that you live in New Orleans - could you list what stores are there / websites / contact info / tournament info?

I'm very interested in exploring the 1-2 hour (3 hour if there's a *really* good reason) commute stores and what they have to offer.

CajunMan550 wrote:Do a 30 mandrake list with the mandrake SC then w/e else you crack some skulls with that list and I will personally come down and shake ur hand.

You say that but a mandrake has a 5++ save and with the way he was making flicker field saves in our game I wouldn't put it past him to decimate.

Another jab at my arrogance, he said, "Seriously man, you NEED to shoot your vinicator HERE," and pointed to his baron/BM unit. I still opted to blast his piled up raiders, then scattered horribly. It was bad.