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Hey guys this is something ive been curious about for a while now, all the fluff ive read seems to be a bit mixed up and I cant seem to get a straight answer, for instance ive heard that after the horus heresy that the secrets to forging terminator armour and now each suit lost is a loss a chapter and humanity on a whole never recover fully from. If that's the case would there really be enough suits left for each chapter to have at least 100 ready for there 1st company ? counting battle losses and new chapter foundings.
But recently I read that terminator armour can still be made but the secret is a closely guarded secrets that doesnt leave the spacemarine warsmith's, if this is the case why is the use of terminator armour restricted only to 1st company, Id assume youd want humanity's foremost defenders armoured in the best gear available wouldnt it just make sense to replace generic power armour with terminator armour ?.
Please tell me its not some lame excuse like oh without a sliver of the emperors armour that is placed in the crux terminatus it becomes heretical to use the suit ?.

"Knowledge is power, guard it well"

You dont want that kind of knowledge being spread around, due to the risk of it falling into enemy hands. (As far as I can tell anyway) The admech are very keen to control this knowledge.

In the fluff termy armour is much better than on the tabletop. It's nearly unbreakable suits have suvived being stepped on by titans, hit by orbital strikes, ect...

Most of the time a terminator is brough down the suit only suffers minor damage. While they can't rebuild them they are able to do small repairs. If a suit is actually lost the SM will do as much as possible to get it back. There are instances of chapters having large battles in order to get hold of a few terminator suits.

Other fluff says they can be produced but the older suits are better. As with a lot of imperial technology the knowledge is slowly being lost so the relics are much more effective than new built gear. This is why SM revere their equipment and pass it down.

Yup, also of note that that Emperor had originally intended to replace all the power armour of the space marine legions with tectical dreadnought armour, but the Heresy came about and thar scuppered that idea. An entire company of terminators would be devastating, but only having a few squads leads to them being isolated and cut down due to their lack of mobility. Indeed they can be produced, but seeing that a suit of new power armour being created is a large undertaking for a chapter, terminator armour being built would take a great deal of time and knowledge and probably be half made out of salvaged pieces.

Only Dark Angels have 100+ suit for sure. The other Chapters 1st Company are said to be about half Vanguard. Most other chapters have far less then 100 suits of Terminator Armor.

I reckon its simillar to the production of a space marine- a large amount of the process has become ritualistic and dogmatic and ritual and dogma change subtly over time so that in the end even those performing the rituals arent quite sure why they are doing it really, these are the reasons that certain chapters have lost function of certain glands and organs etc, the ritualisation of the creation and gene-seed activation has lead to an imperfect process, In much the same way has technology been affected.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Please tell me its not some lame excuse like oh without a sliver of the emperors armour that is placed in the crux terminatus it becomes heretical to use the suit ?.

Only a captains' crux terminatus has a shard in, and it is these that chapters will lay down their lives to reclaim (for than other terminator suits).

As the codex (or at least the previous one) says new chapters take along time to build up their armoury and it takes 100's if not 1000's of years to build up a good supply of terminator armour. Terminator armour is rare due to the secrecy of its construction and the time it takes to make they combined with the fact that terminators go to the worst warzones possible so alot of the time that could be used to make new ones is actually used to repair the ones they already have

BluntmanDC wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:Please tell me its not some lame excuse like oh without a sliver of the emperors armour that is placed in the crux terminatus it becomes heretical to use the suit ?.

Only a captains' crux terminatus has a shard in, and it is these that chapters will lay down their lives to reclaim (for than other terminator suits).

No, EACH Crux Treminatus have a fragment of the Emperor battle armor. So say page 64 CSM.

Lies, Termie Captains, 5e SM Codex says so.

Henners91 wrote:Lies, Termie Captains, 5e SM Codex says so.

Pg #, Please.

Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

Terminator armor is basically layers upon layers of armor but it is very bulky and thats the problem, some chapters like having power armor more than they like having Terminator Armor.

To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

Some chapters that do fast hit-and-run work prefer power armour over terminator armour.

Noir wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Lies, Termie Captains, 5e SM Codex says so.

Pg #, Please.

Pg. 64 of the 5th edition Space Marine Codex states, "Each Crux is reputed to have bound within it's core a tiny fragment of the battle armor worn by the emperor during his epic duel with Horus the Arch-Traitor ten thousand years ago." It does say sergeants and officers have more ornate Crux. Also it says that to lose one of these Crux "is to betray the emperor's trust and bring great shame".

I think the reason they don't mass produce it is:

1. It's incredibly difficult to produce
2. fragments of the emperor's armor are even harder to get
3. You can't go that fast in it

Asherian Command wrote:Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

Terminator armor is basically layers upon layers of armor but it is very bulky and thats the problem, some chapters like having power armor more than they like having Terminator Armor.

To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

This sounds perfectly reasonable, I really didnt know about venus / saturn / jupiter all being there own empires do you have any links with any info this sounds quite interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

4M2A wrote: In the fluff termy armour is much better than on the tabletop. It's nearly unbreakable suits have suvived being stepped on by titans, hit by orbital strikes, ect...

Most of the time a terminator is brough down the suit only suffers minor damage. While they can't rebuild them they are able to do small repairs. If a suit is actually lost the SM will do as much as possible to get it back. There are instances of chapters having large battles in order to get hold of a few terminator suits.

Other fluff says they can be produced but the older suits are better. As with a lot of imperial technology the knowledge is slowly being lost so the relics are much more effective than new built gear. This is why SM revere their equipment and pass it down.

Wait a suit of terminator armour can survival being stepped on by a titan and hit by orbital strikes yet the tyranid "Swarmlord"'s bonesword cuts through them like butter ?!?!

ChronoCupcake wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

Terminator armor is basically layers upon layers of armor but it is very bulky and thats the problem, some chapters like having power armor more than they like having Terminator Armor.

To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

This sounds perfectly reasonable, I really didnt know about venus / saturn / jupiter all being there own empires do you have any links with any info this sounds quite interesting.

Saturine Fleet
Venus is gone I think I can't remember.
Saturn is its own empire go check Terra in Lexicanum, And Jupiter is surrounded by hundreds of terraformed moons and each one supports terra and the Imperium in Fleets and the Sacred homeworld of the Grey Knights.

Asherian Command wrote:
To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

Dude, stop making up stuff.

Asherian Command wrote:Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

It's probably more that forgeworlds have more important things to pump out than a few fancy toys for military units comprising something on the order of a billionth of the Imperium's military forces. You could probably arm several regiments for less than a single suit of terminator armor would cost to produce. It's simple logic: "Do we arm enough soldiers to take and hold a planet, or give those jerks that keep breaking their toys a single suit of armor to play with?"

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

It's probably more that forgeworlds have more important things to pump out than a few fancy toys for military units comprising something on the order of a billionth of the Imperium's military forces. You could probably arm several regiments for less than a single suit of terminator armor would cost to produce. It's simple logic: "Do we arm enough soldiers to take and hold a planet, or give those jerks that keep breaking their toys a single suit of armor to play with?"

Sounds reasonable I mean 1000 guardsmen using lasgun's would likely far better against a greater demon then one space marine in terminator armour, Still doesn't make them any less awesome though .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DEUS VULT wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:
To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

Dude, stop making up stuff.

sounded a bit fishy

The IoM takes what it wants... Usually at gunpoint

Asherian Command wrote:

ChronoCupcake wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Terminator armor is being built but the supply and demand for it so high that not every chapter can get it. If your lucky you only get Like only 2 suits. And these are brand new. The Imperium does make new stuff alot, but it just takes alot of money and resources to build space marine armor and terminator armor.

Hell Land Raiders are still being built its just the demand is so high that the forge worlds cannot handle the amount of demand from the Space Marines and Inquisition that they are pumping out armor as quickly and efficiently as they can but they can't because its so damn hard to make.

Terminator armor is basically layers upon layers of armor but it is very bulky and thats the problem, some chapters like having power armor more than they like having Terminator Armor.

To basically manafacture anything in the 40k universe costs money. Everyone always forgets about the money in the 40k universe. The Imperium still uses money, and they have to sometimes buy their materials from other smaller nations that are not part of the imperium but signed treaties to be their own nation.

And Mars is its own empire.
Same with Venus, Saturn and Jupiter are all Empires, they just joined the Imperium and thus do not follow the Imperium's laws, but follow their own. And they are the ones that control mining and other important materials. They sometimes control other parts of the Imperium but act like the Imperium with their laws. The Imperium just has to buy the Empires stuff with currency and favors.

This sounds perfectly reasonable, I really didnt know about venus / saturn / jupiter all being there own empires do you have any links with any info this sounds quite interesting.

Saturine Fleet
Venus is gone I think I can't remember.
Saturn is its own empire go check Terra in Lexicanum, And Jupiter is surrounded by hundreds of terraformed moons and each one supports terra and the Imperium in Fleets and the Sacred homeworld of the Grey Knights.

The Saturnine Fleet was already being dismantled at the time of the Horus Heresy, and was fully incoporated into the Imperial Navy (Interestingly, the Saturnine Fleet was based on Titan. Perhaps some of the infrastructure remains, and is being used by the Inquisition.)

Saturn was governed independantly from Terra, but when the Emperor began to expand outwards once more into the stars, he incoporated Saturn, Jupiter etc into the growing Imperium of Man. Jupiter is now actually a forge-world I believe, with many stardocks (From memory, it was here that the Furious Abyss was built).

Mars is it's own empire, mainly due to the fact that the Tech-Priests knowledge was indispensible to the Emperor in his expansion, and fighting a war against them with his fledgling empire might have proven to be his downfall, so he 'cut a deal' instead.

---

The low amount of terminator armour, it seems to be a knowledge versus time thing. Only some have the knowledge to build it, but then, they might be amoung the rare few to have the knowledge to build something else (Mars guards its secrets well), and the resources and time involved are quite extensive, enough that the Chaos Legions will are starved for terminator armor above and beyond the loyalists, and are forced to loot and desecrate the armour of fallen loyalists.

Add that to they need to kit out new foundings, lost suits, repair suits, and it's not entirely that hard to see why Tactical Dreadnaught Armour is as rare as it is.

Asherian Command wrote:Saturine Fleet
Venus is gone I think I can't remember.
Saturn is its own empire go check Terra in Lexicanum, And Jupiter is surrounded by hundreds of terraformed moons and each one supports terra and the Imperium in Fleets and the Sacred homeworld of the Grey Knights.

You provided a source that disproves your statement, not the best plan, Saturn had its own goverment during the Age of Strife not during the IoM. The Saturnite fleet had some autonomy but were fully disbanded and intergrated into the Imperial Navy after the Horus Heresy. Seeing as Saturn has Titan orbiting it it is most likely that the world that the super secret base of the super secret deamon slayers orbits is controlled by the Inquisitors, providing alot of the supplies they need.

Jupiter is a forge world dockyard so is most likely owned by Mars.

Mars is the only empire of man allowed to coexist with the IoM due to necessity.

Oh i thought they stilll existed.
sorry. My fault.

Lizar7 wrote:

Noir wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Lies, Termie Captains, 5e SM Codex says so.

Pg #, Please.

Pg. 64 of the 5th edition Space Marine Codex states, "Each Crux is reputed to have bound within it's core a tiny fragment of the battle armor worn by the emperor during his epic duel with Horus the Arch-Traitor ten thousand years ago." It does say sergeants and officers have more ornate Crux. Also it says that to lose one of these Crux "is to betray the emperor's trust and bring great shame".

I think the reason they don't mass produce it is:

1. It's incredibly difficult to produce
2. fragments of the emperor's armor are even harder to get
3. You can't go that fast in it

There is a big word there 'reputed'. I imagine the fragments of the emperor's battle armor to be like splinters of the true cross in medieval times, enough to make a forest.

Something i love about the horus heresy series is that it shows how the SM legions were mass produced, and their equipment was mass produced as well, but the quality (of both) went down.

The Salamanders Forge Ship The Chalice of Fire has the ability to create Terminator Armor, among other things. This is the reason why the salamanders are better equiped then most chapters.

The ability to make terminator armor is not lost, the Imperium does advance technologically, however the imperium operates on a scale that is unimaginable in thise age.

Wait a suit of terminator armour can survival being stepped on by a titan and hit by orbital strikes yet the tyranid "Swarmlord"'s bonesword cuts through them like butter ?!?!

Yeah, there are two types of terminator armour. The tough ones from space marine books and the paper thin ones for everone else's fluff.

I imagine that Terminator Armour cannot be mass-produced, but must be hand-crafted, and only the most skilled tech-priests are good enough to do it or something like that.

ChaosGalvatron wrote:

Lizar7 wrote:

Noir wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Lies, Termie Captains, 5e SM Codex says so.

Pg #, Please.

Pg. 64 of the 5th edition Space Marine Codex states, "Each Crux is reputed to have bound within it's core a tiny fragment of the battle armor worn by the emperor during his epic duel with Horus the Arch-Traitor ten thousand years ago." It does say sergeants and officers have more ornate Crux. Also it says that to lose one of these Crux "is to betray the emperor's trust and bring great shame".

I think the reason they don't mass produce it is:

1. It's incredibly difficult to produce
2. fragments of the emperor's armor are even harder to get
3. You can't go that fast in it

There is a big word there 'reputed'. I imagine the fragments of the emperor's battle armor to be like splinters of the true cross in medieval times, enough to make a forest.

Something i love about the horus heresy series is that it shows how the SM legions were mass produced, and their equipment was mass produced as well, but the quality (of both) went down.

I see what you mean.

Perhaps it can survive being stepped on by a titan by virtue of being harder than the ground under it? Think of old Looney Toons cartoons where something heavy falls on someone, and they get driven into the ground, with just their head sticking out of the ground.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Perhaps it can survive being stepped on by a titan by virtue of being harder than the ground under it? Think of old Looney Toons cartoons where something heavy falls on someone, and they get driven into the ground, with just their head sticking out of the ground.

It would be interesting to try and see him get out. And wouldn't the titan sink then?

4M2A wrote:

Wait a suit of terminator armour can survival being stepped on by a titan and hit by orbital strikes yet the tyranid "Swarmlord"'s bonesword cuts through them like butter ?!?!

Yeah, there are two types of terminator armour. The tough ones from space marine books and the paper thin ones for everone else's fluff.

Swarmlord's blades have some sort of powerfields.