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OK so the title is a bad pun on the actual topic....

But effectivly i would like to know what people think are the best wych weapons to use in a squad of wychs or hekatrix? Do you go all the same in 1 unit or mix it up? Personally i like the hydra gauntlets for the extra d6 attacks... But what of the others? any thoughts?

DarthSpader wrote:OK so the title is a bad pun on the actual topic....

But effectivly i would like to know what people think are the best wych weapons to use in a squad of wychs or hekatrix? Do you go all the same in 1 unit or mix it up? Personally i like the hydra gauntlets for the extra d6 attacks... But what of the others? any thoughts?

I prefer shardnets. It increases the tarpit power of the unit. If you can get 3 nets in contact with most of a termie squad, those TH are getting 1 attack per model (if you charged) and then having to deal with 4++ save after that.

I don't like the other weapons since more attacks isn't really needed in a squad with so many, and the rerolls on just the models that have it doesn't really excite me.

--Hydra gauntlet. Least attractive to me. Most of the time the razorflail has better damage output. It does have that chance of higher damage output, making it nice when facing horde units but I'd rather have consistency and rely on other options for horde duty.

--Razorflails. The best option if looking for increased damage output. The only option that gets a direct boost from the extra attack a bloodbride gets, so I like them the most on that unit. However I'd only take these if you already have other wych units with shardnets.

--Shardnet. The best option if looking for better tarpiting and surviability. Works great when tackling elite units or MCs/dreads. I like these the best on troop wyches with haywire grenades as it adds to their ability to tackle dreads as a last resort.

If I only had 1-2 wych units I'd probably take just shardnets and not bother with any other weapon. Since I'm using 2 troop wyches and a bloodbride unit then the brides get the flails and the wyches get the shardnets.

I have to absolutely disagree. Shardnets are incredibly situational in their effective usage, and an intelligent opponent will maneuver his forces such that the effect of the 'Nets are largely rendered meaningless.

In a normal squad of Wyches, you can have 2 'Nets at most. A savvy opponent will, upon discovering your have 'Nets in your squads, arrange his forces such that you will rarely have more than one enemy model in BtB with a 'Net when the Wyches assault, and his pile in moves will be done in such a fashion to maintain this situation. If he has special troops, like killy IC's, in the squad, they will be located deep in the squad such that no 'Nets can get into BtB with them. If he is assaulting the Wyches, he'll engage each 'Net with a single, normal, trooper, and engage the rest of his troops with the other wyches.

If you're assaulting a MEq squad, and you're lucky enough to get a 'Net in BtB with two enemy models each, you're removing 4 attacks, which I feel will be a rarity against a good opponent. If you remove 4 regular MEq attacks, it's pretty meaningless. 4 attacks, 2 hit, 2/3 wound, 1/3 failed save (if you have a Pain Token, it goes to 1/6 failed save). Even if you remove attacks like Powerfists, it still doesn't make that much difference because the Wyches maintain their invulnerable save. 4 powerfist attacks, 2 hits, 10/12 wound, 5/6 failed save. That's from removing FOUR powerfist attacks; something you'll only see if you attack Assault Termies or the like.

Look at it this way; two Shardnets cost the same as two wyches. Against normal MEq attacks (the kind the 'Nets are most likely to remove), you'll need to be, on average, in combat for six phases to save as many Wyches from the removed attacks as you spent to remove those attacks.

Shardnets really only come into their own when going up against small or single model units that do not have a tremendous number of attacks; even then, they're not amazing.

The only place I've found a good use for Shardnets is in a unit of Bloodbrides (3 'Nets) who accompany my Archon (Clonefield, etc.). The 'Nets stay close to the Archon to decrease the potential number of attacks that might come his way, and the Clonefield ignores those that are directed at him. The Shardnets in this build are there simply to keep my Archon alive in Assault, while still allowing him to go up against killy opponents.

I've been posting this on several different forums. I'm completely open to being proven mistaken on this, but nobody has really shown me anything in the numbers that bear out that 'Nets will prove superior in the long run. In my experience thus far, it is too easy for your opponent to mitigate the effectiveness of the 'Nets.

I agree, to a point. The value of a net depends on the power of the attacks it is negating, as it is rare that you will get more than one infantry base model in contact with more than 2 enemy models while contacting 2 shouldn't be too hard. If you are charging, at least. Perhaps with good positioning against a large horde you might be able to force them to dogpile your 'net models if they outnumber you enough? Not sure on this.

Since they have a ++ save, the presence of power weapons aren't that important either. So the main thing to consider is the WS and S of the target. WS 4 S 4 aren't so attractive. WS 4 S 8 looks better. I suspect you need to stop attacks that have a 33% chance of generating a wound, or have some unpleasant effect attached like force weapon, for them to be notably good. 33% should mean that you generate a gain after just two rounds of combat, assuming double contact. There aren't that many units that manage an attack-to-wound conversion rate like that, as it needs a 3+/3+ or a 4+/2+. Models with lightning claws mostly, or termis and certain demon units. Soaking attacks for another model helps, but only so much.

Or be expecting a very long combat, or be desperate to make a single unit live as long as possible.

I would just like to point out that regular wyches squads are 5-15, and their nets are 1 for every 5. So you can have 3 nets in a regular squad.

Only really useful if you are coming out of a webway, and wyches aren't an uncommon unit for a webway list.

The only reason to ever take wyches is for haywire grenades and/or shardnets. There are so many better options for assault squads than wyches.

Saldiven wrote:I have to absolutely disagree. Shardnets are incredibly situational in their effective usage, and an intelligent opponent will maneuver his forces such that the effect of the 'Nets are largely rendered meaningless.

+1

A good opponent will feed you the mandatory one model, avoid your others if physically possible (and there are some good shenanigans you can pull in an assault), which will seriously mitigate their effectiveness in a competitive setting.

Saldiven, I just realized that you and I see eye to eye on just about everything on Dakka.

@Saldiven and Dashofpepper

Comparing wyches with shardnets to MEQ in open combat is silly, that's not their purpose. They serve to tarpit dreadnoughts, assault tanks, and support better CC units (incubi and beastmasters) that are already in combat. A good DE player will never blindly send them in to attack a MEQ so what you purposed is preposterous.

And because this interests me, I'd also like to hear their opinions on the thread question

Well, if you have 3 nets in a unit, that is at minimum 3 attacks not coming at you (and if you assault, it is possible to get that wych in contact with more than 1 model). In reality, with having to roll to hit, to wound, and get past a 4++ and potentially FNP, it saves about 1 at most on average. Considering that wyches have a high volume of attacks to begin with, this seems like bad math.

The nets are really good against things that the DE don't normally want to CC. Things like dreds, termies (and other large base multi attack units like nid warriors), and MCs. Haywire grenades need time, often a couple rounds of CC do their job. Most MCs have about 4 attacks base, and large infantry usually have 2-3 attacks. So reducing the attacks back means you stay in combat longer. Against dreads (increasing your chances of destroying it), take less damage from elite infantry (bogging them down in long combats), and make MCs useless as you wear them down with a wound or two a turn.

Nets aren't meant to mess with Meqs, in fact wyches probably shouldn't be in combat with meqs unless they are just a combat squad, or a shot up unit. Meqs also shouldn't be charging wyches, as it much better to just rapid fire them.

Ashenshugar wrote:@Saldiven and Dashofpepper

Comparing wyches with shardnets to MEQ in open combat is silly, that's not their purpose. They serve to tarpit dreadnoughts, assault tanks, and support better CC units (incubi and beastmasters) that are already in combat. A good DE player will never blindly send them in to attack a MEQ so what you purposed is preposterous.

Ok, so you're going to a tournament. And you build 1-2 units of wyches with Shardnets and Haywire grenades.

Your wyches assault a couple of vehicles, get a bunch of stuns and maybe a penetration. They largely do nothing and get shot off the board the next turn because they're not locked in combat. All this for a 150 or so point sacrificial unit, 200+ if there is a transport. I contend there are far better units in the DE codex for this purpose.

How often do you really see Dreadnaughts to lock down. I contend that 75+ percent of opponents you see at a tournament will not even have a Dreadnaught. Once again, I would rather DL the Dread' off the board long before it got anywhere near my wyches.

I compared their usefulness against MEq because that is, by far, the most likely opponent you will have. If you insist, I'll compare it to a Dreadnaught or MC. It's the same math as for a Powerfist. You remove 1-2 attacks (depending on the assaulted unit). 1/2 would have it (most likely), 5/6 wound, 1/2 saved by dodge. Each removed attack results in roughly 1/6 fewer wounds on the unit. You're spending probably 20 points for this. These 20 points of upgrades will probably never save you 20 points worth of Wyches over the entire game.

Yes, I know that you can run 15 wyches and therefore having another 'Net if you want. Yes, I know people seem to think that doing this out of a WWP is a great idea. This is another thing I just don't see. It's way too easy for your opponent to avoid any WWP you put down since your models cannot come in until the turn after it's deployed. The opponent only needs to be 18.1" away from the WWP to make your wyches walk out and get gacked to shooting the next phase. With the prevalence of Mechanized forces in today's metagame, it's really not hard for your opponent to reposition away from the portal. Yes, I know, you could try to put the WWP real close to your opponent. Then, he could drive up and surround the portal with troops. You could still bring on Hellions & Jetbikes, but your Wyches and Beasts would have to walk on from the board edge until you got rid of that unit.

The current incarnation of the WWP is pretty bad with it's inability to allow vehicles to enter play from it.

I'm still not getting any really convincing arguments about this. The effectiveness of 'Nets is just plain way too situational. I'm supposed to think spending 20+ points to remove a couple of attacks from a Dreadnaught my opponent might not even field is somehow a good idea? I seriously don't think tarpitting a Dread' with wyches is a good idea at all, honestly. It's really tough for the wyches to kill it, and while it's locked, I can't shoot the Dread'.

I'm actually kind of depressed nobody has commented on my Bloodbride with Archon combination. I'm really having good luck with that, and I have found it to be a very effective use of the 'Nets. My only negative contention about Shardnets is that they are of too limited effectiveness in standard Wych squads.

All of three weapons are good.

I like to put shardnets and flails with regular wyches, and three hydra gauntlets with the blood brides. This is pretty effective.

The Web Way gate really does not need to have Vehicles come out of it. Why are people complaining? You use that to take control of the field by keeping power units in reserve. Try experimenting. I mean come on, imagine what people are going to do when a squad of Harlequins(With kisses) or Incubi leaps out and starts bum rushing entrenched or mek units the moment they come in. That is a Tactile advantage I would not ignore on my worst day. Also your reserved models can not come in until turn two any how.

The WWP is also a great back up plan if you fail to get the first turn.

Tar pitting a dreadnought? Or you can just kill it out right. Haywire grenades are awesome.

Harlequins are awesome.

and Incubi well they are sort of implied.

I've been messing around with the various wych weapons in games and it seems to me that in smaller point games (1500pts) the hydra gauntlets are more useful and in bigger games (2000pts) the shardnets are more useful. :shrug: Dunno, I can't really make a case for either as I find them both useful for different reasons. Razor Flails IMHO aren't very useful based on the fact that if you roll re-roll wounds on the CD table, you just spent points on a weapon that will give you no benefit. At least with the other weapons, their efficiency isn't affected by a bad, or good roll on the CD table.

Overall, I think that shardnets are great for locking down units that you don't necessarily want to deal with with fire power, or is something that your army may not have an immediate answer to. They allow you to buy some time. I like using those shardnet units to blunt my opponents advance. Tarpit combats can block vehicles advancing/ maneuvering by limiting the opponents avenues of approach. If that can keep some of their units away from my fire bases all the better.

I'm not really sure why people are thinking that WWPs are easy to avoid etc. If you can get that portal dropped near the center of the board, your army has a massive reach that the opponent can't avoid. The DE can greatly impose their will with proper board control in this manner without needing to commit a lot of their raiders, etc. to do so. I've been finding that when that happens my skimmers live longer. :shrug: I'm not saying that's the end all be all answer...just what has been working for me lately. So far, I haven't lost many games with my DE because of that.

Ditto

Considering I fight a lot of Space Marines, the WWP enables me to get to them faster, get them into close combat.

My Space Marine playing friends have learned, the DE will beat them in CQC.

So they take a static approach and try to shoot me. WWP helps me take that away and forces them to face me with their "Beast Squads" Who the Dark Eldar seem good at taking down.

I like Shardnets because they take away those pesky extra attacks. Which can be two or three dice less, meaning two or three wychs not dying.

Unless their bloodbrides, don't use razorflails. I've found extra attacks really useful.

lol
I use blood brides with 3 Hydras. 3 D6 additional attacks? Uh, yea, they are wrecking something

poontangler wrote:
I like Shardnets because they take away those pesky extra attacks. Which can be two or three dice less, meaning two or three wychs not dying.

Considering the fact that even Powerfist or MC attacks have, at best, about a 50% chance of killing a wych, I'm not sure how you think saving 2-3 attacks will ever result in saving 2-3 Wyches. Is your luck really that bad? Two or three extra attacks form an opponent should very rarely even equal one more dead Wych.

I mean, a C'Tan who ignores invulnerable saves still only has a 2/3 x 5/6 chance to kill a Wych per attack (that's 10/18, or 55%). Most regular MC or Powerfist equivalent attacks will have 1/2 x 5/6 x 1/2 chance to kill a wych, or about a 21% chance per attack.

I'll repeat my position again. The only time that Shardnets make a significant impact on the opponent is when the opponent is already a smallish unit with a limited number of high efficient attacks. These are units like TMC, Dreadnaughts, etc.; all off of which I would rather be shooting with Lances rather than assaulting with Wyches. The Wyches are not super good at killing such opponents, and usually cost more than them.

Don't get me wrong, though, I love Wyches as a unit. I routinely take them up against MEq and do quite well, as long as those MEq aren't Plague Marines. Those are the bane of a Wych's existence. All I'm saying is that Shardnets are incredibly over rated. Even the examples people give of good uses for them are very situational.

Shardnets are situational in that it all depends on what you're assaulting. If you're using your wych squad to pin something down that they wouldn't normally be able to beat on their own, I think that's where the shardnet will do it's best.

Example: Terminators. With the changes to DA and BT I wouldn't be surprised if there are going to be many more terminator armies floating around and in the case of DA they may be deepstriking first turn or simply walking. Against deepstriking terminators, if they decided to shoot their CML then they're still in a tight little bunch and available to remove up to 4 attacks by a wych squad charging.

Or lets say you blasted a land raider open with various darklight weapons, 2 shardnets should really be able to remove 4 return attacks pretty easily.

Is it somewhat situational? Yeah of course, but having a squad or 2 with some sharnets I think increases the options that those DE players will have against units that they would LIKE to have shot away but simply couldn't before they arrived on their doorstep, or had a string of bad dice and couldn't get the job done.

That said I would probably start cutting them quick if I was running short on points.

MrDrumMachine wrote:Shardnets are situational in that it all depends on what you're assaulting. If you're using your wych squad to pin something down that they wouldn't normally be able to beat on their own, I think that's where the shardnet will do it's best.

Example: Terminators. With the changes to DA and BT I wouldn't be surprised if there are going to be many more terminator armies floating around and in the case of DA they may be deepstriking first turn or simply walking. Against deepstriking terminators, if they decided to shoot their CML then they're still in a tight little bunch and available to remove up to 4 attacks by a wych squad charging.

Or lets say you blasted a land raider open with various darklight weapons, 2 shardnets should really be able to remove 4 return attacks pretty easily.

Is it somewhat situational? Yeah of course, but having a squad or 2 with some sharnets I think increases the options that those DE players will have against units that they would LIKE to have shot away but simply couldn't before they arrived on their doorstep, or had a string of bad dice and couldn't get the job done.

That said I would probably start cutting them quick if I was running short on points.

I totally agree with this, and you've done a pretty good job of restating my point, probably more effectively than I did. I don't think that Shardnets have no place in an army; quite the contrary, I've had much success with them in the Bloodbride unit that accompanies my Archon. My only point has been that Shardnets are far from from a no-brainer, automatically superior choice for Wych squads over the other options. Personally, I can't see a use for more than one unit having them; the increased offensive capacity of both other options will see more chances for effective use than the Shardnets will.

I don't use ANY wych weapons most of the time. For 10 points, not really worth it. If there's room, I'd rather have an extra wych than any more points spent on relatively "meh" weapons.

My luck is often enough really that bad.

If I take wych weapons at all, I have found that the hydra gauntlet is the most versatile. The extra attacks amplify the units strengths. Razor flails are kind of bleh, or at least in games I've used them. The nets I agree. Vrs basic infantry seems like a waste. But against a tough cc unit like berserkers or banshees, reducing the number of return attacks can be a help. Not game changing, but might turn a combat round draw into a win or a loss into a draw. As for dreads I've usually lanced them good and proper before I ever worry about assault. And IF they get close that's why the hexatrix/siren carries a blast pistol.

Imo, the wych weapons kind of suck in general on standard wyches. You have to field 10 wyches just to get 2 of anything.

On Bloodbrides, they can make some of their points up since the brides won't run quite as easily and come with more base attacks.

Shardnets, I only use in situations similar to what Saldiven has said, when I have an HQ attached to them (Although I've gone with the shadowfield over the Clonefield, I'll be trying that one.) Otherwise, what difference does it make? The wyches have an invuln. save. If they fail it, it doesn't matter what kind of weapon it was, they're dead.
Reducing enemy attacks by 2-5 or so isn't much concern since it will only equate to 1 or 2 wounds to be saved on average, if that, depending on the situation.

I don't usually run any weapons on my wyches at all and use them as a speed bump to tie up any infantry that are getting too close. I will be adding haywire grenades to try out what Dash does though.

I advocate including a single shardnet in all wych squads, be it elite or troop. The reason is because the vaste majority of targets have a leader with more attacks that you can put the shardnet on. Likely this model will not be the first removed as a casualty if the opponent gets a choice, and is likely to be the model with a special weapon if there are any. This means he will get attacks which more easily kill wychs and more worth of reducing.

While I put a single shardnet, I don't think stacking them up is worthwhile for reasons already covered.

As for the offensive options, I did a mathematical analysis of both here.

Basically the story is that hydra guants on troop wychs are slightly inferior most of the time, but have a bigger varience in effect. They are also less likely to get aboslutely no effect from a drug roll.

However, on bloodbrides they are always inferior. Bloodbrides always use razorflails.

I'll take a shardnet in the squad my archon/succubus is going with, but otherwise I usually run them plain (except the hekatrix with venom blade).

Skarboy wrote:I don't use ANY wych weapons most of the time. For 10 points, not really worth it. If there's room, I'd rather have an extra wych than any more points spent on relatively "meh" weapons.

I have to admit that I am leaning towards this on my Troop Wych squads. I usually run them in squads of 10, as I put my IC in a Bloodbride unit. Lots of people have been swearing by Haywire grenades in Wych squads; if I don't put any WW in the squad, I can give them all HG for the same price. I'm willing to give it a try and see what happens.