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I was looking at the Forge World model Land Raider Achilles. Rules for the Land Raider Achilles, taken from Imperial Armour Volume 10: The Badab War Part II can be found here
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

A Land Raider Achilles is a also Heavy Support choice in a Codex Space Marines, Codex Black Templars, Codex Space Wolves or Codex: Dark Angels army.

My question to the dakka community is this : Does that mean that the LR Achilles can be taken in casual games? Can it be taken in FLGS tournies? Can it be taken in a Grand Tourney?

What do you all think?

It can in casual games (as long as your opponent says its ok)
But not in Tournaments unless the organisers say so (These are FW rules, even though it says Heavy Support, thats just for, well i don't know apoc doesn't care about Force Org....)

IA is an expansion, so you need opponent's permission to use it. Of course, playing a game of 40k itself requires agreement between 2 players, so no big change.

Tourneys typically don't allow IA or FW rules, but that varies from tourney to tourney.

The Land Raider Achilles in particular is rather OP and is on my list of unallowed FW rules. Others may have differing opinions, so ask your opponent before playing a game if they're ok with it.

Yeah, lately the Forgeworld stuff has been too powerful for their costs - the LR Achilles, Caestus Assault Ram, Grey Knight LR Redeemer, Tomb Stalker, Nurgle Blight Drones, etc.

I wouldn't allow it in a regular game unless both parties are bringing Forgeworld stuff. It just gives too much of an advantage to the person with the FW model. The only exception is if I'm bringing a very strong army from one of the newer codices and they're using one of the older codices (i.e. Daemonhunters, Necrons, Tau). Then I may let them take it to "even" up the odds.

...yea cause an all front A:14 immune to melta/lance tank is sure ok with me...</sarcasim>

When it came out everyone was whining that it was over costed. It's probably fine aside from the fact that people use too much melta.

it cant be lanced. it cant be melta'd the only armys that have a shot at killing it are armys with str 9 or better weapons. so, orks, DE, eldar dont have a hope in hell, nids MAYBE with high str venom cannons or MC, CC, tau rail cannons, or MEQ laz. all of which are expensive rare options.

This topic was not about the OP of the model, which I think it is OP in objective games, but in the legality of the model in casual and tourney use.

So far, the concensus is 'not legal in tourneys' and 'only in friendly games when your buddy is giving you a break'

Seems pretty straight forward. I don't think that GW will change that either.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable errata. immune to lance and melta was just about okay but the -1 on the damage chart took it over the line.

If it continues to be FW-only and has no presence in tournaments or even many 'friendly play' games, there's no need for errata as only a very small niche of 40k players even bother getting one.

The link of rules posted here is out of date. in the IA book it costs more.
as for imuune stuff it is not as immune as a monolith, its not immune to rending where as a monolith is. personally if i faved it id just get Mephiston to walk upto it and 5 st10 hits and bye bye achilles.
as much as i like it it is a huge points sink for a weapon that chucks out 3" templates or 24" melta. you could always sit 48" from it with your standard LR and lascanon it to death during the several turns it takes to get within 12" when its meltas finally become useful. and once it is down and its 6 men are out in the open its time to assault our your 12 men and clear the board. if it had some decent long range weapons it might be a worry.
the other alternative is do like you do to a monolith and ignore/avoid it and destroy the rest of its army

sourclams wrote:If it continues to be FW-only and has no presence in tournaments or even many 'friendly play' games, there's no need for errata as only a very small niche of 40k players even bother getting one.

Which is a pointless statement. You might as well say that there's no point producing FAQs or Erratas for any IA books since hardly anyone buys them. Yet FW's erratas and FAQs are, if anything, more timely than GW's.

fox40 wrote:The link of rules posted here is out of date. in the IA book it costs more.
as for imuune stuff it is not as immune as a monolith, its not immune to rending where as a monolith is. personally if i faved it id just get Mephiston to walk upto it and 5 st10 hits and bye bye achilles.as much as i like it it is a huge points sink for a weapon that chucks out 3" templates or 24" melta. you could always sit 48" from it with your standard LR and lascanon it to death during the several turns it takes to get within 12" when its meltas finally become useful. and once it is down and its 6 men are out in the open its time to assault our your 12 men and clear the board. if it had some decent long range weapons it might be a worry.
the other alternative is do like you do to a monolith and ignore/avoid it and destroy the rest of its army

You do realize that Mephy has a roughly 13% chance of destroying an LRA if he needs 4s to hit and a 4.6% chance of destroying if he is moving at crusing speed...
As have been pointed out, its the combination of immune to lance/melta AND -1 to the damage table that makes it OP.

As for the OPs question. As always its up to the TO. At my FLGS some FW is allowed, the LRA is most certainly not.

Scott-S6 wrote:

sourclams wrote:If it continues to be FW-only and has no presence in tournaments or even many 'friendly play' games, there's no need for errata as only a very small niche of 40k players even bother getting one.

Which is a pointless statement. You might as well say that there's no point producing FAQs or Erratas for any IA books since hardly anyone buys them. Yet FW's erratas and FAQs are, if anything, more timely than GW's.

That's great. It's still a model that, for all intents and purposes, nobody will care about from a rules, balance, or tournament perspective.

sourclams wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

sourclams wrote:If it continues to be FW-only and has no presence in tournaments or even many 'friendly play' games, there's no need for errata as only a very small niche of 40k players even bother getting one.

Which is a pointless statement. You might as well say that there's no point producing FAQs or Erratas for any IA books since hardly anyone buys them. Yet FW's erratas and FAQs are, if anything, more timely than GW's.

That's great. It's still a model that, for all intents and purposes, nobody will care about from a rules, balance, or tournament perspective.

Except, of course, for all the people that use IA rules.

I think his point was that that isn't so many people.

Technically, because FW says it's a HS choice in those amries mentioned then it's legal in friendly games and tournaments that don't forbid FW rules.

FW is just a subset of GW and has an equal footing.




To be nice, i would inform my opponent that i would be using one. if he has a problem then he has a problem. you can either then find someone else to play or swap the Achilles for something else.

Grey Templar wrote:Technically, because FW says it's a HS choice in those amries mentioned then it's legal in friendly games and tournaments that don't forbid FW rules.

FW is just a subset of GW and has an equal footing.



To be nice, i would inform my opponent that i would be using one. if he has a problem then he has a problem. you can either then find someone else to play or swap the Achilles for something else.

So is Planetstrike, spearhead, City of Death ect ect as well...

It's always up to the tourney whether or not FW is allowed. Make sure you are using the most current rules, if that is IA10 then use that.

Finally, if you are using it in a friendly game, have a discussion with your opponent. Let them read the rules and above all, be sensitive to the fact that it may be overpowered. Use it on one side then let your opponent use it in a rematch. Another way to handle it, treat it as an objective and let one side have to capture it or something. You hate to win/lose because the other side can't handle it.

Homer

tedurur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Technically, because FW says it's a HS choice in those amries mentioned then it's legal in friendly games and tournaments that don't forbid FW rules.

FW is just a subset of GW and has an equal footing.



To be nice, i would inform my opponent that i would be using one. if he has a problem then he has a problem. you can either then find someone else to play or swap the Achilles for something else.

So is Planetstrike, spearhead, City of Death ect ect as well...

No, FW is not like Planetstrike.

FW rules avaliable for free download are intended for use in Normal Games of 40k(this they specifically say)

many of their rules are also in a book of theirs.

everyone of their books says which game type they are intended for. IA1 and 2 are for Appoc games. the rest say they are for use with the standard 40k rule set(using the main rule book) and have equal footing with 40k codex's.


naturally, you reserve the right to not play the game at any time for whatever reason you want. you refusing to play against a FW ruleset is the same as refusing to play against BAs because they are OP in your view.

It's just my two cents, but I will always let someone use a forgeworld model and rules. One, because I enjoy killing them, and secondly, becasue they have gone to all that effort to buy and build it and then paint it.

@ Grey Templar.

Take a look at what FW writes about their own legality and what they print on the front of their books.

Can't believe we have to go over this....one....more.....time.

fox40 wrote:The link of rules posted here is out of date. in the IA book it costs more.

Is the only change to the Achilles the point cost, or have any of the rules been changed as well?

Thanks,

i believe just the points cost


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a monolith is cheaper, even more immune to weapons, deep strikes, has a weapon that can hit every unit within 12" and can move troops/units large distances even into assault, now thats a scary set of rules and points

The monolith is NOT over powered in the slightest. Sure it's hard to kill, but 50% of the time you won't be firing the main gun!


Also, the gauss flux arc may target multiple units, but its pretty much a bolt gun....

Back OT, for casual games id let you use the LRA, but I do feel that its a little OP.

Grey Templar wrote:IA1 and 2 are for Appoc games.

Actually, the new updates are specifically to bring them into line with the respective codexes for use in 40K. The only apoc unit in IA2 is the Thunderhawk (although the air-defense units aren't very useful in 40K).

fox40 wrote:a monolith is cheaper, even more immune to weapons, deep strikes, has a weapon that can hit every unit within 12" and can move troops/units large distances even into assault, now thats a scary set of rules and points

Yeah and the Necron are a great codex, oh wiat. The Monolith 1 of the 2 good units in there whole book, you can't compare the 2 until Necron are undated.

Steelmage99 wrote:I think his point was that that isn't so many people.

If it's worth printing the book in the first place then it's worth producing FAQs and Erratas, surely? So his point was a poor one.

Agree with Scott-S6. There is a significant difference between "fewer players" and "nobody".

Lorna wrote:It's just my two cents, but I will always let someone use a forgeworld model and rules. One, because I enjoy killing them, and secondly, becasue they have gone to all that effort to buy and build it and then paint it.

This is also a screamer of a good point.

Nothing brings me more satisfaction than taking down a Mega Dread!!!