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I'm not sure this topic even needs an introduction. TRazorspam, Immy-spam, and Chimera-spam lists are strongly represented in the competitive scene, which means a competitive list needs to be able to handle 12+ vehicles. DE seem to have trouble doing that.

I've seen many players simply cram as many Darklight weapons into their lists as they can, but I don't think that can work. Darklight weapons just aren't that good at killing tanks.



So here's the question: how many times do you have to shoot a Darklight weapon to kill 12 tanks?

Obviously, I don't need an exact number to make my point, so I'm going to make some simplifying assumptions.

I'm going to pretend that 3 rolls at BS4 = 1 hit, and 3 pens = 1 wreck, and so on.
I'm going to pretend that the only way to kill a vehicle is to pen it and roll a 5+.
I'm going to pretend that all of the vehicles are AV10 and are not in cover, to simulate ideal conditions.

Here we go:

12 wrecked/exploded results require 36 penetrations (wreck on 5+).
36 penetrations require 54 hits (pen AV10 on 3+).
54 hits require 81 shots (hit on 3+).


So, under ideal conditions, it takes about 81 Darklight shots to destroy 12 vehicles (6.75 shots to kill one).

In other words, if you have 20 Darklight weapons in your army, and they all fire every turn, and none get killed, it takes you more than 4 turns to kill 12 vehicles.

Obviously, you don't have to kill all 12 vehicles to win, but keep in mind that this was for AV10 vehicles out of cover. For AV12 vehicles out of cover, it takes 162 shots. In a 6-turn game, you'd need to shoot an average of 27 Darklight weapons per turn to do that. In short, it's impossible.

As an aside, melta weapons, firing within melta range, kill 12 AV10 vehicles in an average of 35 shots (for BS4) (about 3 shots to kill one).

--------------------

In my opinion, those numbers establish that (unlike Imperial armies) DE cannot rely on Darklight weaponry to kill vehicles. It just takes too many shots. Darklights should be used as suppressing or weakening fire, to prevent the opponent from moving and to set up a unit that can actually do the killing.

Any thoughts?

I'm not a DE player, but generally speaking, your long range anti-tank is always supposed to serve as a suppressive rather than destructive force right? if you can neutralize even a third of your opponents transports, then you've gone a long way towards slowing them in a crippling way.

There are plenty of lists out there that incorporate 27+ DL weapons.

In addition to those weapons, you also have Fast attack slots that can be used to also include heat lances and haywire blasters. In addition to those.... haywire grenades on wyches seems to work pretty well(from what I've read, that I haven't tried yet). After all, you don't have to kill it to make it useless. On a glance, you have a 2/3 chance to make it not shoot back.

It can definately be done, but it certainly helps for some, let's say, favorable conditions. Going 1st is a big one(We have HQ's that augment your roll to go first). Any time you face someone that reserves their army, that's a big one. Taller terrain seems to help.

Also, using tactics, rather than "go at'em and shoot stuff", along with utilising our mobility to put those 27+ lances to bare on a portion of the opposing army, rather than spread out over 12 models and put enough space to prevent the others from firing back.

Other than bringing as many DL weapons as possible... there probably isn't a way to really compete with that many vehicles. We don't have anything else that's as common enough or cheap enough in our codex that can really take on the AT role.

The problem is that GW seem to overestimate the value of Lance weapons, they are good against AV14 (which only shows up occasionally) but against AV11-12 (which shows up everywhere) they aren't very efficient. Really they need to be used like Missile Launchers in Marine lists, a long ranged way of putting pressure on transports and disrupting the heavy hitters. The only catch is that Dark Lances cost quite a bit more than Missile Launchers and are much harder to spam (without compromising the rest of your list anyway). The other aspect of DE's anti tank issues is that they don't have meltaguns, only Heat Lances which aren't quite the same (again over costed because of the Lance issue).

Basically I would take as many Darklight weapons you need to reliably get close enough so that you can kill vehicles in other ways. Heat Lances, Haywire Launchers as well as various assault units (Beastmasters, Hellions, anything with Haywires) are how you reliably take out armour.

I like taking 6 reavers with 2 heat lances. Reavers die from an enemy sneeze, so theyre a good suicide squad. Zoom them over a couple of squads then zoom them up to an enemy tank and blast them, then get killed by 10 rifle shots. Bit of a waste but if youve got 136pts to spare in a largish game its ok.

Other good ways are talos with chain flails! Theres absolutely no doubt that the vehicle will die if you roll a moderate number of attacks.

Then theyres the risky but brilliantly fun Dark Gate!

Dark Eldar don't need to wreck and explode vehicles. Those are nice results, but shaken is good enough; time to move on to another target.

Damn right! Worked for me in both my last games. Mainly the second last, which rendered a predator useless for 5 turns, but saying that, that was 1 ravager firing at it every turn and getting nothing but 1s and 2s!

I hate dice.


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What about 6 Trueborn, 2 Darklances, 4 Blasters in a Raider with a Flickerfield, or dyu reckon thats too expensive at 252? lol

I suppose you could split that and take 3 Trueborn, 1 Dark Lance, and 2 Blasters in a Raider with Flickerfield for 161, and get 2 of those for 322, getting an extra Dark Lance and twice the target!

Im not a Dark Lance spammer like, but if its anti-tank you want!


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Then theres 10 Scourges, 2 Blasters, 2 Heat lances, and a Solarite with a Blast pistol for 299. Very expensive but worth it?

So maybe my post wasn't so revelatory. I guess my real question is, if darklight weapons don't kill vehicles very efficiently, how do DE kill vehicles?

As for shaking being "good enough," it certainly applies to heavy tanks, but not so much to transports. Blasters have to be within 18", which means your blaster carrier is in melta/rapid fire/potential assault range of whatever the transport's carrying. That's even if you stun or immobilize it. If you kill it, you get a shot at its occupants before they can respond.

I see one mistake in your typing, to begin with.
At BS4, 3 shots = 2 hits. (Only missing 1/3 of the time).
---That's just for clarity, since you did your actual math correctly.

Lets take a different path than you did, though.
Lets look at what 21 Dark weapons can do, using the rest of your equation (AV and no cover) as it sits.

21 shots = 14 hits.
14 hits = 7 Penetrating hits
7 Pen's =
1 shaken
1 stunned
1 Wpn Destroyed
1 Immobilized
1 Wrecked
1 Destroyed

So, 2 dead tanks and 3 that can't shoot.
There's a 7th result in there, too. I'm going to count it as a "4," since the average roll on a d6 is 3.5 and, mathematically, 3.5 rounds to 4.
So,
7 Pen's =
1 shaken
1 stunned
1 Wpn Destroyed
2 Immobilized
1 Wrecked
1 Destroyed

I'm no longer worried about your passengers in the immobilized tank (this matters), and I have 5 other tanks that won't be shooting at me on the following turn.

Wait a minute, though.
On 14 hits, I also had some glances. On average, 2.3333. Rounding that to two.
Those 2 glances have a lot of potential.
Maybe they shake, stun, immobilize or destroy a turret weapon. If they hit a previously hit tank, there's the possibility of blowing it up (with the right dice rolls).

The error I see in your logic is that you're only seeing the worst case scenario. IMO, you should be taking the whole picture into account to get an idea of the full power of DE Dark Lance spam.


Also, this is not including any supplementary weapons and what they'll do to your tanks and disgorged transported units.


Eric

Lack of AP1 weapons is more of a problem than anything else. So many armies have access to cheap AP1 weapons, but DE have a very limited amount of them. Thus, you have to rely on spamming Lance weapons to be effective, which can be boring at times.

Dashofpepper wrote:Dark Eldar don't need to wreck and explode vehicles. Those are nice results, but shaken is good enough; time to move on to another target.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and that's been how I've played DE for around 9 years now. I just try to get as many of my opponent's vehicles as possible stunned/shaken/wrecked/exploded as possible. There are often times I'd rather have a stunned result over a weapon destroyed or immobilized. Once the highest priority vehicles of my opponent have been stun-locked, then I'll go back and see if I can do anything else to them.


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CaptKaruthors wrote:Lack of AP1 weapons is more of a problem than anything else. So many armies have access to cheap AP1 weapons, but DE have a very limited amount of them. Thus, you have to rely on spamming Lance weapons to be effective, which can be boring at times.

Y'know, I don't understand why the Void Lance wasn't made AP1. It would've made a lot of sense for the most powerful lance weapon in the arsenal to also be better at penetrating armor.

Dark Eldar not being able to take out vehicles well enough? It is to laugh. I've been playing nothing but Tyranids for almost a year as it was the first army I've bought since back in second edition. Now I'm getting a Dark Eldar army and all this Dark Lance spam just feels so amazingly luxurious I almost feel bad doing it. (almost)

This is by no means an 'issue', in comparison.

Y'know, I don't understand why the Void Lance wasn't made AP1. It would've made a lot of sense for the most powerful lance weapon in the arsenal to also be better at penetrating armor.

Agreed. I like the Str 9, but I'd rather have AP1 any day.

I run 2 units of 4 trueborn w/4 blasters on a venom. Dirt cheap; fast, and makes tanks go away. Not to mention the 4-5 raiders with lance, warriors with blasters and blast pistols, plus the ravagers... Nothing I enjoy more then facing a mech list. DE are faster and can outrun and fly circles around just about anything out there. The lists I find harder to fight are the horde/gunline, since if it stays together its hard to assault and the amount of high str range attacks can be crazy.

Most of those non heavy tanks have rear 10. IF you can stun them you can charge and rip them apart. Be glad you arn't Nids or orks.

Theres an abundance of heat lances available; Reavers, Talos, scourges being the ones in my mind at the moment.

Fair enough you need to get close, but thats what DE are all about.

If in doubt.. Who cares?! Its a game! lol

But we all like to win.

Dashofpepper wrote:Dark Eldar don't need to wreck and explode vehicles. Those are nice results, but shaken is good enough; time to move on to another target.

Shooting vehicles that are already stunned with long range weapons is a common newbie mistake. Players just need to accept a shaken and say "good enough for government work."

Ok, sorry to open this thread up again, but lets do a little more discussion.

I had a game today at 1750pts against mech-guard. I had 13 dark weapons, wyches with haywires, a cronos, and a few other bits and bobs. Not all anti-tank but enough.

Everything missed. Litereally every single dark weapon I fired in the whole game either missed or didnt 'pop' anything, just got 1-4 results. Hence I lots everything and got wiped out in annihilation. I didnt mind tho, Im not a sore looser and it was pretty funny but it was the worst game in my life. I killed about 250pts, thats due to the wyches haywiring a chimera and killing the insides and an other squad who foolishly chose to exit their vehicle. The final victory points were 1749-250ish, kill points were 16-3! lol

Im getting sick of dark weapons, because you have to rely on them and normally your glancing on 4's. Their definately not bad, but theyre just so uncertain. Im contemplating trying a list with 3 Talos coming out of a webway with 3 heatlances. If you get a talos in CC with a vehicle its going to explode 95% of the time, all you have to do then is get a cheap Haemonculus up the board.

Also, suicidal Reaver Heatlance teams, or scourge teams with heatlances, or even blasters because they work well occasionally. Then of course, haywires everywhere; Wyches, CC Trueborn, Characters and suchlike.

Ive never really liked the whole idea that you have to take as many Dark weapons as you can. Definately take some, but their not brilliant.

Sorry if this has already been covered, but Im determined to rant and this thread covers everything that I want to rant about!

I really hate Guard players who put everything in transports, but then again, what guard player wouldnt! Youve basically got an evenly matched army with the tanks, then when you eventually pop a tank youve got the juicey insides to easily deal with, but if you leave them too long they can still be nasty.

1 Talos isnt enough either, because people fear them, and then if the guard player is having lucky rolls they vandetta them dead in one triple bem.


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Just to add, it was dawn of war, I went 2nd, only took 1 ravager and it died in turn 2. (got another ravager in the post)

Newt-Of-Death wrote:Ok, sorry to open this thread up again, but lets do a little more discussion.

I had a game today at 1750pts against mech-guard. I had 13 dark weapons, wyches with haywires, a cronos, and a few other bits and bobs. Not all anti-tank but enough.

Just fyi, at 1500 points I can field 32 Darklight weapons, and I normally do. True, I don't do so well against my friend's Horde Orks, but hey, this isn't IG, I can't noob myself to make an all comers list that specializes at killing everything lol. My meta is tank heavy, hence my Darklight heavy list.

Everything missed. Litereally every single dark weapon I fired in the whole game either missed or didnt 'pop' anything, just got 1-4 results.

yeah, it happens. If you have 17 lascannons, the outcome would have been the same since the BS between Marines and DE are the same. The game is built around chance, and this is no fault of the codex/army. Judging an army based on a single game is a huge nub mistake. For every game I miss everything, I have 20 that don't, but, I ONLY tend to remember the games I missed everything. Get me?

Ive never really liked the whole idea that you have to take as many Dark weapons as you can. Definately take some, but their not brilliant.

Why not? Everyone else is playing with "take as much MECH/Melta as my list lets me" Why do you not like doing the same for DE? DE has been about the Lance spam since 1998. Nothing has changed really.

I really hate Guard players who put everything in transports, but then again, what guard player wouldnt! Youve basically got an evenly matched army with the tanks, then when you eventually pop a tank youve got the juicey insides to easily deal with, but if you leave them too long they can still be nasty.

We all hate MECH guard. We all do My 1500 point IG army only has one Chimera.

1 Talos isnt enough either, because people fear them, and then if the guard player is having lucky rolls they vandetta them dead in one triple bem.

If you go with Talos, you need 3 of them, always, no exception.

Just to add, it was dawn of war, I went 2nd, only took 1 ravager and it died in turn 2. (got another ravager in the post)

When you build a DE list, the FIRST THING YOU DO is take 3 Ravagers with Darklances for 315 points. Always. Always. Unless you want to go another heavy support, then you ALWAYS go three of that instead.

DE does not like mixing it's heavy support choices. A list either starts with 3 Ravagers, 3 Taloi/Cronos or 3 Razorwings. What your heavy support gives you, the rest of your list builds around it.

Fair enough points.

Our tournament is 2 games a month, and you know who your playing each game in advance, (army lists have to be written per month so its terrible if you get say mech/guard and nids in the same month). This means that you dont have to go all commers all the time, but I like to be varied. I do have another Ravager in the post so I'll be closer to having 3, but Ive got 3 talos so I might try that for the 2k games next month.

I dont think spaming Dark lances is as much of a luxury as spaming armoured transports. If I was using my marines I couldnt care less if they were all armoured, but when Im using Dark Eldar it makes it very difficult for me.

Also, as I was reading back there, its easier said than done to 'zip round the place because your so fast'. You can only move 12 and shoot with the vehicle, (great for ravagers), and you can only move 6 and shoot for blasters, not at all for Dark Lances (I think?). Especially if theyre damn all scenery!

I was playing Marines there for about a year solid, and Im just getting back into the DE since winter there, but Im not a noob! Ive been playing them since they first came out too, just not competatively in the past. Normally in a cold garage with a load of booze!


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Just to add, talking of talos and having 3 of them and collecting since DE first came out; My talos/Taloi? Cost me £9. Now theyre what, £21.50?! Thats sick.


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Just remembered I took a photo!

Wow, no LOSB terrain... But then what would you expect from a tourney, which is why I only play in a tourney once a year.

I like my tables to actually have terrain on it that matters. That table is IG heaven.

Yeah lack of terrain is a big deal, that would've been an uphill battle for whichever army wasn't the shootiest

Well said chaps, but unfortunately, it was an immediate combination of that and the fact that when I had the advantage on turn 1 after loosing a single warrior, I hit 3 things and failed to damage them. Then it all went downhill..

That happenes. I once meltaed a landraider 8 times and nothing happened. I even had lined up plasma cannons for the temrinators inside. This was a BA list sow ithouth the priest dead I judt died horibly.

As a DE player myself there is no reason in my mind to play a casual game unless there is a decent amount of terrain - especially against IG.

Thats a bit mad Niiai! Definately need new dice after that!

I have actually been looking at new dice lol.

I love loads of scenery. Its really annoying tho when your opponent hates too much scenery, then you can be blamed for trying to make the board benefit yourself and all that. Definately not enough terrain down at are club so far tho. Not when its shared between 12 tables anyway!

I propose taking a Talos in lieu of taking the Cronos. It can get the Twin-linked Haywire Blaster that glances on a 2+. It's only 5 points and it's twin linked to prevent BS 3 from undoing your shooting too much. Plus it's a S7 T7 MC that can gain FNP. All in a tidy 105 point package.

Stormrider wrote:I propose taking a Talos in lieu of taking the Cronos. It can get the Twin-linked Haywire Blaster that glances on a 2+. It's only 5 points and it's twin linked to prevent BS 3 from undoing your shooting too much. Plus it's a S7 T7 MC that can gain FNP. All in a tidy 105 point package.

Yeah, in general I would take a Talos over a Cronos. I do like the Spirit weaponry of the Cronos, though. They have served me well in the past. I also take Chain Flails as standard. The extra d6 is something I have been wanting for 12 years lol.

I think reason to the DE anti-tank 'issue' is quite simple. A Chimera costs 55 points, hits 1.5 times per turn with the multi-laser and gets a result against a Raider on a 4+. The Raider hits 0.66 times and gets a result on the Chimera on a 4+. Insult to injury the Chimera might even have a heavy bolter, making the matters worse. Naturally the Raider has advantages against heavy armour but in a fight between these two the Chimeras (especially if they got HBs) have about 3 times more firepower for less points. Hydra vs Ravager isn't any better. Hydra has over 50% more firepower in a battle between those two and yet only costs 75 points.

Sure a chimera versus a raider odds are in favor of IG... it's up to the dark eldar player to make sure he has the tactical advantage using his better mobility.