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Discuss the uses of these guys.........

156 points for 6 with 2 heat lances: Seems like they could be useful against LF packs and the like or for tank hunting if needed. You could add in 2 Cluster Caltrops for a marginal increase in the unit's cost.

God, bad, horrible????

Also.....post how you've used them and results of their performance, please.

Thanks,
P

Heat lances seems the way to go yes. I would personaly go with scourges with blasters though.

The reaver jetbike is a very good unit vs infantery (soom over them) but I agree with white dwarfs articel that tacking both caltrops and a shooting weapon makes them to exspensive.

The heat lance works, even against transports (remember, shoot 9, and then use the eldar jetbike rule to move 6 back getting out of charge range) or you can charge in. But if you want a primary shooting unit the scourges is what you want.

They have better saves, are easier to hide in terain, cost about the same, they have better weapons vs non meck (multi purpose) and they can deep strike. Eather from the skyes or through a webway portal.

Reaver jetbikes are also good, but they are better vs troops becayse they get out of rapid fire range and they do so mutch damadge with the drive by attack. (They are then not multi purpose unles they get 2 pain tocens. Perhaps start them with a haemonculy.)

6 with 2 Heat Lances is a pretty decent anti tank unit which can still be annoying to infantry with the fly over attacks, but you still have to view it very much as a suicide unit as they are incredibly fragile (even with a 6" jump back they won't be out of rapid fire range, 6" move + 12" rapid fire > 9" range + 6" jump back).

The alternative is to go 9 with 3 Heat Lances, it gets pricey but the third Heat Lances puts you into 'guaranteed to kill a vehicle territory', the extra bodies make you are really threat to infantry units but most importantly means that you are quite likely to get more than 1 shot off with the unit before they die.

I think nine is too many since you'll have a really big footprint to move around. Six is just right. Go either anti tank or anti troop but not both.

So, how about 1 squad with 2 lances and a second squad of 5 plus champion w agoniser and 2 cluster caltrops....?

I was thinking I wanted 2 squads of 6 anyway and that would have 2 alternate roles in game.....

I usually run a 6 bike squad with 2 Cluster Caltrops.... works real well against 'Nids and Orks, and decent against Marines. If I have the extra points, I give them the 2 heat lances just in case they don't die.

They are not necessarily a suicide unit, but I know that alot of people look at a unit that can move 36" a turn, and all of a sudden I'm behind your line first turn, as something that must die and die fast, so they end up taking alot of shots that first turn and save alot more of your army. If they happen to survive that first round, then you have two heat lances on his back lines for some nice rear armor shots, or another 36" bladevane to dice some more infantry.

Meh.

I'm going to have to chime in and disagree with pretty much everything said in this thread.

Reaver Jetbikes are an awful unit.

Need anti-tank? Ravagers, trueborn units toting blasters, raiders...they all have STR8 lances with better range. Having a melta weapon is nice when you run into a land raider, but in competitive 40k, things are pretty much universally MSU these days - not a lot of raiders floating around - and reavers *are* a suicide unit in this role. Not many people are going to be able to precisely eyeball a 9" distance to a target consistently - and even if you do, there are plenty of things that can move 12", disembark and assault you. Or flame you. Or rapid fire you. Or look at those reavers very angrily. They only have a 5+ armour save, and it isn't going to go very far against anything, no assaults are needed.

The only justification for reavers in an anti-tank role is to try filling a hole against Blessed Hull (where the Melta will help you while lances are ignored) - and you have better options to deal with those - wyches with haywire grenades or scourges with haywire blasters. And when it comes down to it - they are 22 points apiece before you even get around to the upgrades, making them an exorbitantly expensive, underperforming suicide unit. In the last codex when I could take three reavers with two blasters, turbo-boost for cover saves and have a cheap dual blaster suicide anti-tank unit to try drawing fire away from raiders they were debatable - now they're just awful.

In an anti-troop role.....seriously? A splinter cannon is 10 points. That's 6 shots that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+. If you want to deal with long fangs, how about some venoms packing dual splinter cannons that can ALWAYS alpha-strike long fangs. If you go first, you get to lay down a withering display of firepower before they can shoot back. If you go second, you can reserve, and when you come onto the table....you can lay down a withering display of firepower before they can shoot back. THe ability to move 12" and lay down splinter cannons is a great anti-infantry weapon. This is before we even get around to shard carbines, beasts (and their awesome anti-infantry ability), Incubi, wracks, wyches.....the entire codex is full of anti-infantry abilities.

Reavers don't fit the bill.

And that's the problem - there is nothing that they can do that another unit can't do more effectively and generally for less points.

Completely agree with what Dashofpepper said. The only thing I don't think he mentioned was, "what if all your slots are full and except for fast attack." I wouldn't even consider using reavers when we have beastmasters and scourges to use in those slots.

Soooo if a squad of reaver moves over multiple squads can you have ALL the squads take the caltrop damage? Or do you just choose one?

Meeka89 wrote:Soooo if a squad of reaver moves over multiple squads can you have ALL the squads take the caltrop damage? Or do you just choose one?

I don't care if you get to move a Reaver squad over three enemy units in 36" and cause 3x hits to them all - I still wouldn't take them.

I could just repeat what dash said....but I'll just say I completely agree.

T3, 5+, and you can't hide them in combat because they're horrible at it. No ability to take characters on bikes also really hurts them. Just a really useless unit.

Well they are to me one of my favorite units in the codex, 6 with two CC zooming over a unit always (for me anyway) puts out enough damage to make the unit run off the table! After turbo boosting 36" I'm never within flamer range, and if they are shooting at them in you opponents turn? So what, they aren't shooting your raiders

I think they make a good distraction unit. Anything moving that fast into enemy lines makes said enemy HAVE to deal with them. And the invun they get from turbo boost makes them a bit more survivable. Anything shot at them is stuff not going into your raiders or ravagers. They are also the only unit I know of that can turbo boost and cause damage.

That said they are massively expensive to use as simple distraction, and will have a hard time proofing worth while. I would suggest taking another wych or warrior squad instead

I'm going to have to go with the general consensus and say that it's mostly a casual unit. I greatly enjoy using them, because nothing is more entertaining than seeing the look on your opponent's face when you pull out 36" of measuring tape, and they can be marginally useful against horde armies for that happy little zooming attack, but they are ultimately not that great for any role on the whole.

I've tried them with both, and I own nine, so it's not for lack of trying. They just consistently underperform for me. I just can't wait for the scourge model kit to come out, hopefully soon.

I like reavers a lott. But as stated previusly only as an anti troop unit. The problem is what sort of list you are using by the time you have covered your 2 troop slots and the rest of the list. I would not consider taking them in a non webway list and I prefer helions over them even though they are less mobile.

I haven't had a chance to use them much, but in the 2 games I have used them they didn't get that shot up, even with 2 crisis teams firing at them. Making use of their eldar jetbike movement and skilled rider has let me jump shoot jump into cover pretty well.

Of course I was being pretty conservative with them, keeping them pretty hidden and using them to force his units into a corner. Its probably not a tactic that would work every time though. They need quite a bit of cover to really work, and most people tend to play on relatively open boards it seems.

I didn't post anywhere that reavers can't be fun to use. I have nine of them myself; I had them in sets of three, with two blasters each just in case I wanted to waste points or have a non-competitive game in the old codex.

I'm not arguing that no one should use them - simply that in COMPETITIVE play, they have absolutely no business being on the table. Most of my advise is geared towards certain presumptions - that people want to win, or are playing to win, or want to improve their list's competitive ability. Not everyone cares about those things. And for those people, use what you want, play what you want, and enjoy rolling dice.

This thread is "Discuss the uses of Reaver jetbikes" which prompts people to answer the best they can within the constraints of the request. But before all those answers convince an unwary reader that the reavers are worth USING for those constrained uses, I thought it was important to chime in with the evidence that everything a reaver jetbike can do, can be done elsewhere for cheaper and more effectively. Context is important.

And with that, I'll let the thread go back to possible uses for the reavers peacefully - as long as no one gives unwarranted and terrible advice like, "Oh, and you should put these in your list because they work good!" That's the sort of issue where I'd ask someone to get on Vassal and put $50 on a game against me so that I can demonstrate that they know nothing about list construction, playing 40k effectively, and then take their money for making me have to take the time to show them that they shouldn't give advice when they don't know what they're talking about.

In my experience, Reavers only work effectively in a WWP list. Any other way and they are an average unit. They need the alpha strike at the 9" range in the shooting phase to be helpful, and that is really only possible by coming out of a WWP. If they fail...well tough luck, but at least you gave them the best chance to do something with their shooting. If small infantry (MSU) units are on the table at the point in the game they arrive, then Bladevanes are the best alternative, if you got the opponents other vehicles locked down. The Str 4 into the infantry is not to be discounted and there is no downside to doing it.

I see Dash's point, but I don't know if I can agree with it all. There are several other things that they can do for your army besides just shooting things. Providing mobile road blocks, cover, and distraction units are all other things they can do to be useful. I'd rather sacrifice the Reavers first rather than lose a unit of trueborn in a venom, or anything else in my army. If they can draw fire away from those units, then they are doing something.

I personally want to use Reavers, but every time I write a list I just have trouble including them, mostly for the reasons already stated. While they can be a decent distraction, the Boost only helps because of their cover save and anything that ignores it will put them down. Considering how expensive they are, that just makes them an iffy choice. And Caltrops cost too much since you could get another bike for that amount and the question becomes D6 S6 vs 2-6 S4 and another body. Overall I think most of the FA choices for the DE got overpriced just slightly.

However, I am not a uber-competitive player, so I am still planning on getting some and just leaving them on the shelf if and when I play in a hard knock tournament.

Because I'm feeling argumentative...

CaptKaruthors wrote:In my experience, Reavers only work effectively in a WWP list.

In a WWP list, there is a FAR superior for the point anti-tank option: Beasts. Khymerae are STR4, and Razorwings are STR3 rending, so 2/3 of those sixes are going to penetrate, except against land raiders - giving you 12 point and 15 point options for a lot of dice to roll, able to serve a dual focus as both anti-tank and anti-infantry, with the same threat range and far superior survivability. And in terms of land raiders....reavers are literally an 81 point per shot suicide unit, because you can't get out of range of them unless you happen to get a lucky shot, which is statistically unlikely. 3 reavers to get one heat lance, and a choice of 3 or 6 reavers, 81 points or 162 points - you can get a raider full of trueborn for that with points left over. 3 reavers is almost the cost of a triple lance ravager. Their points just aren't effective. Taking them just because beasts can't handle land raiders is a poor choice too because there are *other* significantly better ways to deal with land raiders in a WWP list. 6 reavers with two heat lances for 162 points - how many wyches with haywire grenades will that buy?

CaptKaruthors wrote: They need the alpha strike at the 9" range in the shooting phase to be helpful, and that is really only possible by coming out of a WWP

One to two shots with a 66% chance of hitting, and less chance of doing anything....still isn't very helpful. Darklight weapons don't nuke mechanized armies in a turn, they reduce its effectiveness (shaken/stunned) across the board as much as possible while hoping for a few lucky shots (wreck/explode). And while 1-2 shots is better than 0 shots.....again, when you compare the points and ability of this unit compared to other FA choices, or other army choices capable of serving the same role (and other roles as well), reavers don't justify their points.

CaptKaruthors wrote: If small infantry (MSU) units are on the table at the point in the game they arrive, then Bladevanes are the best alternative

Bringing a list to a game when you don't know what your opponent is going to be running....you have to make the best choices you can - if you start stacking wargear onto your reavers to try making them dual-purpose (Heat lances + Bladevanes?) you are taking an already overcosted, underperforming unit and making it even more expensive. If you're leaving off the heat lances and making them an anti-infantry unit by taking bladevanes/caltrops/other, the problem again is that there are quite a few other things in the codex that can serve as anti-infantry for less points, more shots, better saves, longer range, etc.

CaptKaruthors wrote: There are several other things that they can do for your army besides just shooting things. Providing mobile road blocks

Dark Eldar are famous for providing mobile road blocks. With raiders and venoms. A bigger footprint to block vehicles, dodging rams on a 3+, and probably a 4+ cover save while you're doing it, with a 5++ invulnerable save as backup against template weapons. An enemy trying to clear a roadblock is going to have a much easier time shooting and assaulting through reavers than through fast moving vehicles.

CaptKaruthors wrote: [providing] cover

Providing cover to what? Three reavers with NO weapons is 66 points, and while they can give cover to infantry by physically being in front of them, they're not likely to give cover to a vehicle; not enough of a footprint, and not tall enough where it counts; having a slim look isn't benefitial to that. For less points, you can get a venom that can drop out 12 shots per turn into infantry at 36" and a 5++ invulnerable save. Or a lance-toting raider. If you're trying to screen infantry, beasts are cheap, and you can pull shenanigans with them depending on your beast unit configuration and what HQs you are using.

CaptKaruthors wrote: [providing] distraction units

Literally everything in a DE list can be a distraction unit. Small, cheap, threatening. DE aren't Tyranids that specifically need to add distraction units to try drawing fire away from the "big stuff" because the entire DE codex (with the exception of a couple of things) is all about inexpensive killing power. The best defense is a good offense, and DE are right up there with IG in terms of creating a withering offense - and as you flesh out your army and put in as much killing power as you can, reavers just fall short of doing anything useful that something else can't do better for less points.

CaptKaruthors wrote: I'd rather sacrifice the Reavers first rather than lose a unit of trueborn in a venom or anything else in my army. If they can draw fire away from those units, then they are doing something.

Here's the thing: In regard to my previous statement that the best defense is a good offense.....for the cost of 6 reavers, you can get two more venoms. Instead of wasting points on units to try protecting my killy units, I'd rather just have more killy units - and with a 5++, every three venoms is like having a free fourth one for survivability. For free! I'd rather sacrifice NOTHING than sacrifice a distraction unit; and I wouldn't count on reavers drawing fire from vehicles. They're going to attract some anti-infantry firepower and...otherwise be ignored in favor of killing more threatening units - until they are in position to be threatening themselves, in which case your enemy will evaporate them.

Because I'm feeling argumentative...

Fair enough. Here's my rebuttal.

In a WWP list, there is a FAR superior for the point anti-tank option: Beasts. Khymerae are STR4, and Razorwings are STR3 rending, so 2/3 of those sixes are going to penetrate, except against land raiders - giving you 12 point and 15 point options for a lot of dice to roll, able to serve a dual focus as both anti-tank and anti-infantry, with the same threat range and far superior survivability.

And how many points is it for a unit like that? For 6 bikes with heatlances, I'm paying 156pts. With a giant uber beast unit like that to be effective, you need a lot of them. Rending? You are counting on rending? I'd much rather take my chances with AP1 vs. vehicles than with rending. Sure you might be throwing a lot of attacks, but who cares? Don't get me wrong I like beast packs and plan to experiment with them, but their biggest problem is LD. Their durability is questionable when most opponents are going to be hitting them with high strength blast markers, etc...thus making the points spent...not exactly worth it overall. Throw in some units that completely screw a unit like that (lash princes, psychic battle squads, etc.) and suddenly they aren't as appealing. As for the anti infantry role...I have plenty of that already in my army. It's killing the 10+ tanks to allow my anti-infantry to go to work is the main issue. Blasters and Lances are nice, but vs. AV 11 and 12 are no more reliable than a missile launcher.

And in terms of land raiders....reavers are literally an 81 point per shot suicide unit, because you can't get out of range of them unless you happen to get a lucky shot, which is statistically unlikely.

True, but I'd rather risk 156pts to knock out that landraider, because if I don't the raider mulches your T3 models and shoots down your paper airplanes. The AP1 option can't be discounted like that.

3 reavers to get one heat lance, and a choice of 3 or 6 reavers, 81 points or 162 points - you can get a raider full of trueborn for that with points left over.

6 reavers with heatlances is 156pts.

3 reavers is almost the cost of a triple lance ravager.

Understood. But I have 3 already and can't take anymore..otherwise I would, right?

Their points just aren't effective. Taking them just because beasts can't handle land raiders is a poor choice too because there are *other* significantly better ways to deal with land raiders in a WWP list.

It isn't just to deal with land raiders. AP1 weapons are great vs. any vehicle. There are other ways to deal with LR in a WWP list...my point is I already have those things in there.

6 reavers with two heat lances for 162 points - how many wyches with haywire grenades will that buy?

Again 6 reavers with lances is 156pts. Yes, I can buy another unit of wyches, but the wyches don't have the ability to move 36" either unless you are taking a transport...which adds to their cost more.

One to two shots with a 66% chance of hitting, and less chance of doing anything....still isn't very helpful. Darklight weapons don't nuke mechanized armies in a turn, they reduce its effectiveness (shaken/stunned) across the board as much as possible while hoping for a few lucky shots (wreck/explode).

You can't always rely on that though. Sometimes you really need a specific vehicle dead. AP1 makes that a little easier without having to shoot the feth out of it with the bazillion lance shots it may require.

And while 1-2 shots is better than 0 shots.....again, when you compare the points and ability of this unit compared to other FA choices, or other army choices capable of serving the same role (and other roles as well), reavers don't justify their points.

Of course. The point you seem to be missing is that I aready have units like that in my army. Sure, I could be using Scourges...except I won't field them until a model is made for them. I'm too old and lazy to convert them. Maybe 10 years ago..when I cared more I would...LOL. For right now, the bikes work for me.

Bringing a list to a game when you don't know what your opponent is going to be running....you have to make the best choices you can - if you start stacking wargear onto your reavers to try making them dual-purpose (Heat lances + Bladevanes?) you are taking an already overcosted, underperforming unit and making it even more expensive.

Zuh? Bladevanes don't cost me anything. It's in their special rules. I don't take any other upgrades on the bikes other than the heat lances, because anything else is a waste.

If you're leaving off the heat lances and making them an anti-infantry unit by taking bladevanes/caltrops/other, the problem again is that there are quite a few other things in the codex that can serve as anti-infantry for less points, more shots, better saves, longer range, etc.

Using Bladevanes vs. infantry is a win-win prospect. There is no downside IMHO if your intention is to use that ability for that turn. Why? Because I'm not jeopardizing casualties to the reaver unit in a CC when I use it (as it is done in the movement phase), I'm not giving my opponent any extra movement off of said maneuver (no assault movement towards my lines)...and if used well..can actually change the direction of some of your opponents forces as they turn to deal with them, etc. They also become more durable in the shooting phase. Want to get rid of them? With a T4 and 3++ save you'll have to bring some serious fire power to remove them...or in the case of flame templates, move said flame units over to them.

Dark Eldar are famous for providing mobile road blocks. With raiders and venoms.

All true. However, sometimes I want those units alive longer...or to accomplish some other task. Usually those units you mention are carrying important units to my plan and don't always like sticking them in situations like that. Better to use something equally as dangerous and fast.

A bigger footprint to block vehicles, dodging rams on a 3+, and probably a 4+ cover save while you're doing it, with a 5++ invulnerable save as backup against template weapons.

All valid points, but sometimes those units have other plans.

An enemy trying to clear a roadblock is going to have a much easier time shooting and assaulting through reavers than through fast moving vehicles.

Sometimes. But sometimes they will be a bigger problem because tank shocking them might get those vehicles killed, OR prevent units from multi assaulting all my skimmers. Using bikes to funnel things away from the: "shoot then assault" nature that can occur with vehicle parking lots is critical.

Providing cover to what? Three reavers with NO weapons is 66 points, and while they can give cover to infantry by physically being in front of them, they're not likely to give cover to a vehicle; not enough of a footprint, and not tall enough where it counts; having a slim look isn't benefitial to that.

Providing cover to what? To basically the units I want covered...lol. Baron and his Hellion minions love a mobile wall of cover that can be fast enough to stay in front of him.

For less points, you can get a venom that can drop out 12 shots per turn into infantry at 36" and a 5++ invulnerable save.

Yes that is true, if only I could take Venoms without a unit mounted in them. That isn't the case though is it? Thus a higher price tag to take a Venom overall. However, I already have 2-3 venom mounted units in my list. Any more and I'm risking being deficient in other areas. I also don't like spam lists as I find them excessively boring. Sure, I could probably put more Venoms, etc. in my list...but then it looks just like everyone else's list. Besides WWP lists don't need that many.

Or a lance-toting raider. If you're trying to screen infantry, beasts are cheap, and you can pull shenanigans with them depending on your beast unit configuration and what HQs you are using.

That's a lot of "what ifs" that can work, but don't always work. As for the shenanigans and configurations + HQ...look at the amount of points you are sinking into that unit to achieve that. It still doesn't solve the leadership problems that the unit can be affected by...and it's painting a much bigger bullseye on that unit.

Literally everything in a DE list can be a distraction unit. Small, cheap, threatening. DE aren't Tyranids that specifically need to add distraction units to try drawing fire away from the "big stuff" because the entire DE codex (with the exception of a couple of things) is all about inexpensive killing power. The best defense is a good offense, and DE are right up there with IG in terms of creating a withering offense

Well then I have great experience in achieving that as I play IG as my main army and I'm not a stranger to this type of strategy. However, any IG player will tell you that they also don't like risking certain key units for no reason either. Yes, even IG have distraction units. Cheap and effective can work, but you have to strike a balance. Too much of that stuff can form an imbalance in your army. Too many KPs for instance makes it easier on your opponent to play a more conservative game. Sometimes it doesn't matter, but sometimes why give him that tactical advantage when there could be a better solution?

and as you flesh out your army and put in as much killing power as you can, reavers just fall short of doing anything useful that something else can't do better for less points.

That is why I plan on trying out Scourges when they release the models. They can fulfill the same role for slightly cheaper. For now, the Reavers seem to be holding their own in my WWP list.

Here's the thing: In regard to my previous statement that the best defense is a good offense.....for the cost of 6 reavers, you can get two more venoms.

Venoms by themselves, yes...however, you have to take a unit to get one which usually means more points spent...and like I said I already have 2-3 with True born in my list.

Instead of wasting points on units to try protecting my killy units, I'd rather just have more killy units - and with a 5++, every three venoms is like having a free fourth one for survivability.

True. But that adds 2-6 more KPs to my list that already has a lot. There are other solutions. Why would I intentionally make it easier for my opponent when I can garner a similar effect for less?

I'd rather sacrifice NOTHING than sacrifice a distraction unit; and I wouldn't count on reavers drawing fire from vehicles.

With them coming out of the WWP, I'm not sacrificing them as much as you think. They will reach an intended target. If they complete that task, anything else they can do for me is a bonus. If you are sticking them in certain areas of the board...or even around certain enemy vehicles..yes they will attract the level of firepower you are asking for. Mobile AP1 weapon platforms are never ignored.

They're going to attract some anti-infantry firepower and...otherwise be ignored in favor of killing more threatening units - until they are in position to be threatening themselves, in which case your enemy will evaporate them.

I get all of this in one turn of moving out of a portal. Thus they will always be in a position to be threatening...and yes the opponent will have to deal with them. If that 156pts allows one, or several of my ravagers to fire longer, or allows my true born unit to get into position for some side shots...it's all worth it.

I've only a few games under my belt with the new DE codex but so far I'm liking my two small units of Reavers in my WWP list. They are very good at being irritating to my opponent and messing up his plans. Coming out of my WWP they are fast enough to pose a threat to any vehicles with their heat lance and troops with bladevanes or even a charge. If there isn't any viable target when they come out then I turboboost 36" away only to scream back in later turns to contest objectives. Yes other things can do what they do, but frankly I already have all those in my force (as Capt. Karuthors mentions). They are there to give me some tactical options for a very cheap points cost.

You have to remember what you're using them for. Are you going for the bloodvanes and caltrops, or are you hunting transports/tanks (killing a land raider with a heat lance isn't that hard).

Six seems to always be a good number, since the upgrades can push them either way. Put them in reserves so they don't get shot at first, then on T3 or so they can shoot out of wherever they were and mess crap up. They're much better later in the game, when you need to get to places quick, or dropping hordes of models with vanes.

Personally - I have found reavers to be very beneficial as enemy distractors also to set up pain tokens and get rid of enemy pain units.

The automatic is the caltrops upgrade IMO. 2d6 S6 + 4d3 S4 attacks has accounted for Keeper of Secrets, Necron Heavy Destroyers and Lords of Change. Their attack hitting in the movement phase is the biggie. They really setup attack priorities and garner pain tokens for themselves or for following fire phase units.

The two areas I am questioning are the squad leader and the heat lances. Frankly T4 Sv5+ without FNP and then at their cost is a real waste to get into fire range. So my general tactic is to turbo boost them until they have a pain token before I ever think about using them for vehicle hunting. So the real question to me is the points you sink into heat lances or blasters.

The other joy of course is enting from WWP or your board edge so I have put mine in reserve thus far and they haven't disappointed me yet. Either they are killing some high power unit or they are setting one up to die in the ensuing fire phase. Especially if they get their pain token, they are real pains for most armies to engage between the invulnerable save and FNP.

I agree wholeheartedly agree with Dash's assessment. I think they're crap, and there are other options that can do the same thing better.

Does it matter if no one uses landraiders anymore? Is that even true - I still see them from time to time. Reavers with heat lances are a psychological deterrent to your opponent. I like that factor. It forces your opponent to play more defensively. Coming out of the WWP also means that most if not all the smoke has been popped. For the cost they have value for a competitive build. Plus they are FA so you're not having to sacrifice a Ravager to field them.

I have yet to read a convincing argument here or in another thread to support Reavers. I have yet to see it, either on paper or even more importantly on the tabletop from them. When I look at Reavers, I see fantastic models that, but in-game are:

-A CC unit that hits like wyches, but lack the invulnerable save for over twice the cost per model. T4 really doesn't keep you alive long and the difference between the old 4+ save and current 5+ save is HUGE.
-A unit that MUST turboboost every turn to have even moderate survivability, but for limited effect (bladevaning or providing cover for other models, when both are achieveable elsewhere for cheaper/more efficient points)
-A unit that is pretty much dead if it ever stops to fire its neat special weapons unless you can create a pop-out/shoot/pop-out scenario, just creating a 150+ pt suicide unit
-Another DE assault unit without grenades to preserve their best asset (initiative 6)

Sorry, bladevane hits (even with Caltrops or the Grav-Talon pinning chance), just don't add up. As stated earlier, you can have two Venoms for 130 pts (6 naked reavers are 132) that deliver 8 AP5 wounds at 36" without leaving you vulnerable to assault, that has a built in 5++ save, and carries up to 5 more DE badasses to contribute to the carnage.

For fast attack, Beastmasters hit harder. A 5 khymerae, 4 razorwing, 3 beastmaster unit runs 156 pts (about the same as 6 Reavers and a champ w/ an Agoniser) and does much more damage in assault, and features 28 wounds (!). Scourges shoot much better and more efficiently in both small and large scale, and survive longer thanks to Ghostplate Armor. Hellions kick the crap out of Reavers in assault AND anti-infantry fire, plus can get grenades, and with Furious Charge and/or +1 S on the drug result, can assault vehicles better.

I hate to say it (I have 12 Reavers), but they are probably the WORST playing, but coolest looking FA choice.

Here's the problem I see with using Reavers for anti-tank:

To have a decent shot at killing the tank, the unit needs to cost at least 156 points. But most tanks don't cost 156 points, and most of the time the Reavers won't survive to take a second shot. If you're shooting then you're not turboboosting, so you're trying to survive on a T4, 5+Sv, Ld8 profile. Good luck.

Of course, Land Raiders cost significantly more than 156 points, so killing a LR would be a fair trade (as people in this thread have mentioned repeatedly). However, Darklight weapons are comparatively good at killing LRs, so we don't need a special unit to do the job.

CaptKaruthors makes a good point, though: Heat Lances do have a significantly better chance to actually kill a tank (of any AV), provided you can get within 18", than Darklight weapons. Of course, you can take a lot of Darklight weapons for cheaper than you can Heat Lances, but it's possible to run out of cost-effective Darklight options. Once you've taken all the Ravagers and Trueborn you can, maybe you get the most power per point for Reavers.

Dashofpepper suggested Wyches with Haywires or Beasts as alternatives. For 156 points you can get: a Raider and 8 Wyches with Haywires; 13 Wyches with Haywires; or 3 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwings. All three are different enough from Reavers that I'm not sure they're directly comparable, and so it's hard to say they're obviously better. Wyches score, mounted Wyches come with a vehicle, and Beasts are super-resilient.

I'll personally chime in on what I want to try out and with a wych cult + duke I think they have a solid place in a competitive list. It takes some pain token movement but I really think 9 with 3 heat lances + arena champion w/ venom blade (clocks in at 252 points) is really quite a good buy.

They can reliably kill most things that are hiding in a transport that you would want dead and depending on drug roll (preferably +1 attack, or +1 ws since they should be able to get a 2nd pain token quickly). However if you send them after backfield support units (such as the longfangs) I wouldn't be surprised if 2 units of these 9 man jetbikes could wipe all 3 packs of them (with their splinter rifles softening up their primary targets of course). I wouldn't count on being ABLE to do that on a regular basis on the table but really I don't see why they wouldn't be able to go toe to toe with grey hunters or other midlevel CC units and with their shots going in before the charge be able to come out on top.

There are certainly OTHER ways to clear out support units but I don't think they're necessarily better and I think the above unit has perfectly fine duality (triality?) with being able to take on a very wide breadth of units in CC or through anti-infanty fire or anti-tank fire. It seems very much like the swiss army knife of units from DE and as a higher value target than a 6 man unit with 2 heat lances is I think it scales up and would be a very good choice to take in 2000+ point games, especially for 'ard boys.

Overall you have to do one of 2 things to include my suggestion and thats either max out the rest of the FoC except fast attack or build the list around having 2 of these units + duke and flexible pain tokens for them. After their 2nd pain token and almost any drug roll other than a 1 or a 6 their effectiveness against almost anything seems to skyrocket.

I have yet to read a convincing argument here or in another thread to support Reavers. I have yet to see it, either on paper or even more importantly on the tabletop from them.

Fair enough. You have your opinion and I have mine. Different strokes and all that.

When I look at Reavers, I see fantastic models that, but in-game are:

-A CC unit that hits like wyches, but lack the invulnerable save for over twice the cost per model. T4 really doesn't keep you alive long and the difference between the old 4+ save and current 5+ save is HUGE.

Getting a pain token on these guys isn't hard if they are bladevaning small units, or reminants of units that are nearly dead. Additionally, why in the world would you assault with these guys? Their other abilities are what I'm after. There are far more useful things to assault with than these guys.

-A unit that MUST turboboost every turn to have even moderate survivability, but for limited effect (bladevaning or providing cover for other models, when both are achieveable elsewhere for cheaper/more efficient points)

Really? In general I've found that any unit in the DE codex dies with judicious shooting regardless of the type. T3 and T4 models ALL die when their save is 5+ or worse. However, if I'm maneuvering these models into positions that make it difficult for you to remove, or forces you to take a course of action that pulls some fire power away from my main force, then they are worth it. This unit can attack infantry OR tanks and the movement allows them to redeploy across the battlezone quickly as needed.

-A unit that is pretty much dead if it ever stops to fire its neat special weapons unless you can create a pop-out/shoot/pop-out scenario, just creating a 150+ pt suicide unit

I'll trade 150pts all day long if it stops something nasty that is in a transport, or any other particular combination that I don't want to baring down on my army. Lances and blasters are all well and good, but having AP1 in your army is critical. Sure, I can get heat lances on Scourges, but I've already cited my reasons for not including them and five Scourges with 2 heatlances isn't much cheaper...and Scourges have their own flaws.

-Another DE assault unit without grenades to preserve their best asset (initiative 6)

Since when have these guys have ever been considered by DE players to be an assault unit?

Sorry, bladevane hits (even with Caltrops or the Grav-Talon pinning chance), just don't add up. As stated earlier, you can have two Venoms for 130 pts (6 naked reavers are 132) that deliver 8 AP5 wounds at 36" without leaving you vulnerable to assault, that has a built in 5++ save, and carries up to 5 more DE badasses to contribute to the carnage.

You are missing the point...I already have that stuff in my army. Not only that, but your Venoms can only deal with infantry where as Reavers can deal with both. Additionally, while two Venoms are 130pts...that's not taking into consideration the cost of the units that ride in them. Lastly, Venoms can't come out of a WWP.

For fast attack, Beastmasters hit harder. A 5 khymerae, 4 razorwing, 3 beastmaster unit runs 156 pts (about the same as 6 Reavers and a champ w/ an Agoniser) and does much more damage in assault, and features 28 wounds (!).

Lolz. 6 Reavers with 2 heatlances is 156pts. I have the option to use their basic Bladevanes (which is good enough and the cost is built into the bike), OR tag tanks. I'm not interested in what Reavers do in assault. There are much better alternatives for assault units in the DE codex. I'm not discounting the utility of Beast packs, but they do suffer from LD issues and only really become nasty as a big giant unit. When that happens, it can become a massive loss to your armies' assault punch if you lose a unit like that. Losing 6 Reavers in my army doesn't affect me all that much.

Scourges shoot much better and more efficiently in both small and large scale, and survive longer thanks to Ghostplate Armor.

Their efficiency is greatly exaggerated. While you can take 5 with 2 heat lances for slightly less points, they aren't as fast, fight in CC equally as poor, and need to place themselves in harms way to use their guns much the same as bikes. However, the ability to affect a unit in the movement phase and their overall speed makes Reavers more appealing to me. I do plan on trying Scourges out though once models for them are released.

Hellions kick the crap out of Reavers in assault AND anti-infantry fire, plus can get grenades, and with Furious Charge and/or +1 S on the drug result, can assault vehicles better.

I already have these in my list and yes, they are awesome.

I hate to say it (I have 12 Reavers), but they are probably the WORST playing, but coolest looking FA choice.

Their success greatly depends on your build. In my experience they have worked best in a WWP army. In other builds, I think they are an average choice at best. The biggest advantage they have is that they are a mobile AP1 gun platform. In 5th edition that is an ideal advantage to have in your list.


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To have a decent shot at killing the tank, the unit needs to cost at least 156 points. But most tanks don't cost 156 points, and most of the time the Reavers won't survive to take a second shot.

Most tanks you'll be shooting will be transporting troops (more than just the cost of a transport in points), or other units...thus overall, by killing said transport you are actually getting a fair trade if it limits those units ability to move quickly and be protected.

If you're shooting then you're not turboboosting, so you're trying to survive on a T4, 5+Sv, Ld8 profile. Good luck.

The key is that the unit can fulfill two roles and one method of attack is going to be favored more than another based on your opponent's army. Remember, there are no durable units at all in the DE army...so the durability argument I don't agree with as a valid con for the Reaver.

Of course, Land Raiders cost significantly more than 156 points, so killing a LR would be a fair trade (as people in this thread have mentioned repeatedly). However, Darklight weapons are comparatively good at killing LRs, so we don't need a special unit to do the job.

Darklight weapons vs. a landraider don't always cut it either. It requires more Lance weapons to garner a destroyed result than you think. AP1 weapons are taken in other armies for a reason. The +1 to the damage table is a significant advantage to have it ensure a vehicle dies. Shaking and Stunning a LR isn't going to cut it...not when it has the machine spirit and usually extra armor to keep it moving.

CaptKaruthors makes a good point, though: Heat Lances do have a significantly better chance to actually kill a tank (of any AV), provided you can get within 18", than Darklight weapons.

Yup, and coming out of a WWP makes this job easier for the Reaver.

Of course, you can take a lot of Darklight weapons for cheaper than you can Heat Lances, but it's possible to run out of cost-effective Darklight options. Once you've taken all the Ravagers and Trueborn you can, maybe you get the most power per point for Reavers.

Taking lots of lances and blasters isn't the issue. I have that in my list already. Getting AP1 weapons into your list is important in this age of tin boxes.

Dashofpepper suggested Wyches with Haywires or Beasts as alternatives. For 156 points you can get: a Raider and 8 Wyches with Haywires; 13 Wyches with Haywires; or 3 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwings.

All are good choices but like you said do different things. They also have their own flaws to address.

All three are different enough from Reavers that I'm not sure they're directly comparable, and so it's hard to say they're obviously better.

Agreed.

Wyches score, mounted Wyches come with a vehicle, and Beasts are super-resilient.

Yes, and all have their flaws as well. The point is, when you have most of this stuff already in your list...why not take AP1 mobile shooting?