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Very well said there Captain.

Reavers are good in that they are versatile and fast. They are a unit that is best saved towards the end of the game. They can shoot and they can assualt. Not as well as other units in the codex, but most of them do one and only one.

Their bladevanes are going to be just about as good as units with shard carbines in shooting(3 shots, 2 hits) where as the bladevanes are going to get on average 2 S4 hits. S4 is usually better than 4+ to wound but doesnt have the AP5. That it occurs in the movement phase is a very big bonus. You can kill off a unit and then move the rest of your units knowing its already dead.

A relentless splinter rifle is just about as good as a hellion's splinter pod. rapid fire 24" vs assault 2 18". Under 12" they are the same. 12-18 hellions get an extra shot. 18-24 reavers get the only shot.

In CC I think they are equivalent to hellions except they dont have hit and run (boy would that be nice)
hellions have 1 higher strength but reavers have 1 higher toughness. They both get drugs, they both have the same number of attacks and the rest of the stats are the same. Whoever said they didnt think reavers were CC should ask themselves why reavers have pistol and CCW, why they have combat drugs.

Reavers move 18" a turn. Scourges and Hellions move 12" a turn unless they can assualt. Scouges and hellions are fleet, but if Reavers are not going to shoot they move 36" instead of 13-18" although reavers cant assualt when they turbo, they can bladevane and they get an invulnerable save.

I think the comparison of Reavers to Scourges is wrong. Scourges can only shoot. They have less attacks, no bonus S or T, and no combat drugs. Sure Scourges are going to be better than Reavers at shooting.
I think the proper unit to compare reavers to is Hellions. I think hellions have a slight edge being 6 points cheaper (27%!) but hellions are a lot more vulnerable to shooting. If you think reavers are too weak to be on the tabletop because they get shot at, yet you can field hellions which die even easier(50% faster from bolters) you sir are a hypocrite. With the Baron, hellions are troops, thus MUCH better. Without him I think Reavers are competitive with hellions.
Hellions are cheaper, can get grenades, can hit and run, and their first strike in CC is better but they die faster and are much slower. They cant bladevane and they cant take weapon upgrades.

Exergy wrote:Reavers are good in that they are versatile and fast. They are a unit that is best saved towards the end of the game.

The entire DE army is versatile and fast. These are more expensive and less effective than most other things in the DE codex. And....saving DE units for the end of the game is a waste of points - the effectiveness of DE is their EARLY game - doing horrendous damage in the first couple of turns to irrevocably cripple your enemy. At the end of the game, you're either cleaning up / finishing tabling your opponent, or struggling to not lose.

Play to win.

The entire DE army is versatile and fast. These are more expensive and less effective than most other things in the DE codex. And....saving DE units for the end of the game is a waste of points - the effectiveness of DE is their EARLY game - doing horrendous damage in the first couple of turns to irrevocably cripple your enemy. At the end of the game, you're either cleaning up / finishing tabling your opponent, or struggling to not lose.

Completely agree. It is a rare day if my Reavers survive the entire game. However, I fully expect them not to..just like half the other stuff in the army as well. It's all expendable if it allows me to win.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The entire DE army is versatile and fast. These are more expensive and less effective than most other things in the DE codex. And....saving DE units for the end of the game is a waste of points - the effectiveness of DE is their EARLY game - doing horrendous damage in the first couple of turns to irrevocably cripple your enemy. At the end of the game, you're either cleaning up / finishing tabling your opponent, or struggling to not lose.

Completely agree. It is a rare day if my Reavers survive the entire game. However, I fully expect them not to..just like half the other stuff in the army as well. It's all expendable if it allows me to win.

Different strokes for different folks indeed. I fully expect every unit in my army to survive a game unscathed, and take personal affront to every killed model and lost vehicle, which reaffirms my determination to crush my enemy. I usually lose 10-25% of my army in a game; more if I'm having a bad game (tactical mistakes, opponent seizes, hard counter army).

As an aside while both sides collect their breath, I use Swooping Hawk models for my scourges (they were referenced a couple of times above). It finally makes the model useful, and they look very close to the pic in the 'Dex. I just wish there were a simple way to convert the weapon without butchering my fingers.

As for Reavers, I wish they could take ghostplate, they look way cool, and I've seen them influence my opponent's deployment. ATT however, I'm using scourges/hellions instead.
- Phanatik
Kabal of Lost Souls

Phanatik wrote:As an aside while both sides collect their breath, I use Swooping Hawk models for my scourges (they were referenced a couple of times above). It finally makes the model useful, and they look very close to the pic in the 'Dex. I just wish there were a simple way to convert the weapon without butchering my fingers.

As for Reavers, I wish they could take ghostplate, they look way cool, and I've seen them influence my opponent's deployment. ATT however, I'm using scourges/hellions instead.
- Phanatik
Kabal of Lost Souls

You know, I was going to buy some Swooping Hawks to make scourges - I'd done some test-gaming with them using Haywire blasters as a potential answer to blessed hull, but nixed that due to lack of reliability- gonna stick to wyches with haywire grenades.

Even when making 'same slot' comparisons its just impossible to justify the reavers.

For bladevane spamming anti-infantry "shooting" You get more mileage by far out of a unit of scourges with splinter cannons. they can start damaging enemy infantry on top of one, or even the turn they arrive from reserve. No set-up turn needed, no need to get dangerously close to previously unused enemy special weapons.

For WWP assault units, the beastmasters are peerless. Even after they lost almost all of their FNP, they are still monstrously difficult to kill in both the 5 khymera and 10 khymera configurations, they put out way more hurt on a broad variety of targets, including vehicles.

For "But what if they have blessed hull". Its not in the fast attack slot per se, but wyches are troops (even easier to have a slot open for) and can just grab a handful of haywire grenades before the realspace raid. They'll need to be just as close (6" charge and around 3" fleet, versus 9" short range heat lance) And they can actually handle the terminators that fall out of the land raider and charge in the following player turn.


And as a speedbump.... I don't really get that. Tanks tank shock past them, skimmers and jump infantry go over them, ANY assault unit just charges them and then immediately enjoys a consolidate move, and any shooting unit on foot is unlikely to be wanting to move to mid-table anyway (speed-bumping lootas?)

Gorgeous models, and can be made to do a job in a casual game. But my experience with dark eldar has been that, due to their fragility, they need to be laying hurt down IMMEDIATELY upon entering the table or on top of turn one. They can't afford "set-up turns" in which the enemy is given extra time to shoot at or maneuver in response to your units. That means things need 36" range move and fire weapons, or they need to be coming out of a WWP. And if you are a fast attack unit coming out of a WWP, I can't see you not being a beastmaster unit.

Shep joins the fray and the crowd goes wild! *cheers*

Different strokes for different folks indeed. I fully expect every unit in my army to survive a game unscathed, and take personal affront to every killed model and lost vehicle, which reaffirms my determination to crush my enemy. I usually lose 10-25% of my army in a game; more if I'm having a bad game (tactical mistakes, opponent seizes, hard counter army).

That's the IG player in me. Everything in the army is expendable if the ends justify the means. Life is cheap in the IG and so it is in the DE.

Even when making 'same slot' comparisons its just impossible to justify the reavers.

Again. Different strokes, etc. I don't always look at units in that manner.

For bladevane spamming anti-infantry "shooting" You get more mileage by far out of a unit of scourges with splinter cannons.

The problem is that particular scourge unit is locked into one thing..and is probably more expensive, etc. The advantage of Bladevaning is that it occurs in the movement phase. Again, I've explained my position on the unit. So far, nobody has really considered that AP1 is important :shrugs:. Meh. To each their own.

they can start damaging enemy infantry on top of one, or even the turn they arrive from reserve. No set-up turn needed, no need to get dangerously close to previously unused enemy special weapons.

I already have enough units that can do that. Reavers are just another tool in the tool box that has flexibility other units do not enjoy.

For WWP assault units, the beastmasters are peerless.

Again, I haven't tried them out yet, but so far the bikes have worked for me. More often than not, they accomplish their goal. I'm also not needing a CC unit like that. I already have units that do the job.

Even after they lost almost all of their FNP, they are still monstrously difficult to kill in both the 5 khymera and 10 khymera configurations, they put out way more hurt on a broad variety of targets, including vehicles.

I'm not discounting their use, but they still have flaws. I'd rather use something else to kill the vehicles more reliably than close combat attacks. AP1 is something the DE need IMHO...and they don't have much of it in their list. Again, my opinion could completely change when I get around to building a unit of beasts. However, I'm lazy and won't until they make models for them. The bikes are holding their own at the moment, so I see no real rush to go out and get beasts on the table.

For "But what if they have blessed hull". Its not in the fast attack slot per se, but wyches are troops (even easier to have a slot open for) and can just grab a handful of haywire grenades before the realspace raid.

My point is that I already have those units in my list. I'd rather have that more as an alternative than an actual direct use.

They'll need to be just as close (6" charge and around 3" fleet, versus 9" short range heat lance) And they can actually handle the terminators that fall out of the land raider and charge in the following player turn.

The downside is losing models needlessly when the tank blows up. I'd rather avoid that if I can. Reavers allow me the luxury of not blowing my own units up. If I want my units to die, I'm going to make my opponent work for it. Not me helping them out if I can avoid it. While everything is expendable in my army, I'm not going to gamble units needlessly either. Assaulting vehicles with haywires, while it can work, is more of a gamble to me...especially if you are trying to assault vehicles that are moving over 6" a turn most of the time.

And as a speedbump.... I don't really get that. Tanks tank shock past them,

And clever positioning allows a DoG attack that auto hits with an AP1 weapon...which means I have a very good chance at stopping the tank. If they try to maneuver to work around that, then they are doing their job as I am dictating the options for the tanks move...and not the other way around.

skimmers and jump infantry go over them

How is this different from any other unit?

ANY assault unit just charges them and then immediately enjoys a consolidate move,

Again, you are assuming that I'm using them to block movement all the time, or are assuming I'm not keeping the bikes more towards my opponents edge of the table. With 36" to move it really isn't that difficult.

and any shooting unit on foot is unlikely to be wanting to move to mid-table anyway (speed-bumping lootas?)

Most of the time the bikes will be in a position that is behind the enemy...which means they have to stop, or change direction to deal with them.

Gorgeous models, and can be made to do a job in a casual game.

You are entitled to your opinion.

But my experience with dark eldar has been that, due to their fragility, they need to be laying hurt down IMMEDIATELY upon entering the table or on top of turn one.

With certain units yes, I agree. In the case of Reavers, experience tells me otherwise. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that with certain builds that their utility is limited. In a WWP portal list, however, they seem to work rather well.

They can't afford "set-up turns" in which the enemy is given extra time to shoot at or maneuver in response to your units.

Just short of the WWP, there's nothing to "set-up" with them. Either your buttload of lances/ blasters have shot holes in some tanks in turn one which allows your bikes to have some options to pick on the units that are now stranded, or your lances/ blasters haven't had much luck and you need direct application of some AP1 goodness to seal the deal. Either way, out of a portal I get first strike.

That means things need 36" range move and fire weapons,

I have that covered in my list already.

or they need to be coming out of a WWP. And if you are a fast attack unit coming out of a WWP, I can't see you not being a beastmaster unit.

Again, beasts are nice, but have their own flaws...they also confer a massive CC advantage to your army, that if nullified leaves you deficient. Anyone can tell you that relying on rending as an answer to tanks is foolish. I'm not sure that relying on mobile AP1 platforms is any less foolish.

Shep joined this discussion to try and keep me from using them in my upcoming dark eldar list ;-)

I am really liking a 3 man bladevane/caltrop list on paper for my wwp list. It is under 100 points, the models are big enough you can go length wise and sacrifice them to block enemy movement or go narrow and play some fun anti-LOS shenanigans.

Under 100 points is about what I look for when I am looking at a sacrificial unit so they meet that requirement.

They seem good at setting up a pain token for another unit - I am really seeing a lot of synergy here in the DE codex which is exciting to me.

I think for anti-tank duties they are a bit lacking because I wouldn't want to rely on a single anti tank shot which means you are required to take 6 with the two upgrades ends up being a bit more expensive than I like to just throw away (though I reserve judgment here and may change my mind as I regularly threw away 200 points a pop in my SM bike list).

Anyway, I will definitely try them out at some point and let you know how they work for me but I expect there to be a serious learning curve.

Oh yeah, one more thing, I have to say that while I think splinter cannons are okay, they aren't great. On the move with a unit with 2 you get 6ish hits and 3 wounds. Awesome vs. something with high toughness - but against guardsmen, I would far rather be wounding on 2/3 with caltrops/bladevanes. Even against MEQs you are, on average, almost getting a splinter cannon on each regular model (average of 2 hits wounding on 4s) for 22 points with a cheaper buy in.

Oh and yes, I am just flat out addicted to speed ;-)

Anyway, I will definitely try them out at some point and let you know how they work for me but I expect there to be a serious learning curve.

Oh, believe me, it took awhile to readjust the way the bikes play now vs. how they used to play.

I haven't played Dark Eldar since 3rd edition so I am fortunate in that I am approaching them for what they do rather than what they used to do.

Somnicide, keep in mind that vehicle-mounted splinter cannons count as stationary and therefore always fire 6 shots, even after moving.

Yeah, 12 shots (because the venom will obviously have two of them - and my list runs 3 of these so I love 'em).

12 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds on a 60ish point unit (that has an extra "buy in" of having a unit but we will assume you were going to take the unit anyway).

even without upgrades, bladevanes get you (on average)
6 hits, 4 wounds vs t3, 3 wounds vs. t4.
sure, you could get 9 hits or 3 hits, but you can also miss all 12 splintercannon shots or hit with them all, so that is largely irrelevant for theoryhammer


Also, a single lascannon (or even an autocannon) will not automatically end the reavers threat in the way it will for a venom.

I am not saying replace them all, but I am saying that claiming splinter cannons are far better just isn't necessarily true. I think that both have a place in the list.

Plus the ability to do wounds in the movement phase is huge as it lets you adjust your shooting or charging without overcommiting.

Somnicide wrote:I haven't played Dark Eldar since 3rd edition so I am fortunate in that I am approaching them for what they do rather than what they used to do.

That was the last time I played them as well. I sold them at the end of 3rd edition.

Plus the ability to do wounds in the movement phase is huge as it lets you adjust your shooting or charging without overcommiting.

+1

As somebody who has extensively playtested the DE book and knows and have played against CaptKaruthors' and Dashofpepper's Dark Eldar, I though I would chime in.

Reaver Jetbikes, outside of a few specific builds from the Dark Eldar book, fulfill a very crucial role in the army, reliable anti-tank.

I say that because the Heat Lance is the best anti-tank weapon in the book. I think, unless you put somewhere in the neighborhood of 20+ darklight shots into an army list, the Dark Eldar will always struggle against AV12+ tanks.

Think about it, anything less the AV12, and the darklight weapons shine. Dark Eldar has the ability to put a crushing amount of firepower on the table to threaten light armor. Razorback spam fears darklight spam. I can understand Dash's point that the majority of super competitive lists on the table, especially Space Wolves, relies on that massive amount of light armor, and in that context, yes, the focus on Darklight weapons seems fairly reasonable.

However, some armies, can and will put AV12 and higher tanks on the table, and in great enough numbers that the Dark Eldar who focused on darklight will suffer. Dash has gone on record to say that his DE almost autolooses to IG armies, especially if they go first.

Why? A darklight weapon has a a 33% chance to cause a result to a tank. Not kill, not weapon destroy, a result. This is not even taking into account cover. Having played the darklight spam myself, I can attest that you will just have those turns where you are not able to cause any real significant damage to a tank. I understand the point of "stun then move to the next target", but that only goes so far. The problem with that, is that you will look at the availible firepower in your army, look at the amount of tanks in your opponent army, and you realize that you need, so many shots allocated to this, that, and the other thing. If the dice betray you, or your opponent is hot on cover saves, your resource allocation becomes tighter and tighter, to the point where you are not able to cause the damage necessary to silence what needs to be silenced. The problem with this is simple.

Dark Eldar can't survive a bad turn.

Dark Eldar are fragile, they need to cause damage or the retribution can be game changing. Outside of some very specific builds, the ability to spam Darklight has been greatly reduced in this codex. Unless you specifically build a list that includes nothing but as many blasters, and mobile dark lances in your army, you simply will not have the necessary firepower or ability to cause vehicle damage to IG parking lots or Craftworld Eldar. It is a very visible weakness to the diversity of builds to that army.

Enter the Heat Lance. It causes results to high AV armor. More so then a blaster. The average dice roll of 2D6 is a 7. Which in my mind, with average dice, every heat lance hit is a penetrating result, regardless of armor, whereas every third darklight hit is a penetrating result. 2 Heat Lances should have a serious probability of causing significant damage to a vehicle.

I am not arguing that you should toss the darklight out the window. I still advocate taking a fair amount of it, you can't be ccompetitive without it. But I am saying that taking Heat Lances of some sort in any dark eldar list is generally a very good idea.

Reavers, IMHO, are the best way to apply them. Yes, they can be relatively pricey for a unit of 6 with 2 heat lances, but they are the best way to deliver that gun.

I think the one thing people have failed to take into consideration is that they have the Eldar jetbike move and skilled rider along with the other benefits listed here. A favorite tactic of mine was to move within 9", pop a Land Raider or battle wagon (or at the very least immobilize it), and then move 6" away into cover. Not only have I taken myself out of assault range, but I have also provided myself 4+ cover from shooting.

Another aspect of them, is that they are one of the few units able to cause morale tests during the movement phase, with the exception of tank shocking. However, multiple bladevine attacks, has the potential to cause enough casulties, and can to it from further away then most tank shocks.

Their flexibility, their ability to bring multiple heat lances to the table, and their battlefield adaptability, not to mention that in many situations they are far more survivable then a lot of DE tanks, makes them an excellent addition to a lot of armies.

Say what you will, you may believe that a better list can be made without them, but to call them a bad unit, at the very least, isn't a fair assessment.

For the record, a within-melta-range a heat lance has a 38.8% chance of a penetration and a 41.8% chance of any damage at all. Of course, it's AP 1, so it's more likely to deal lasting damage on a given penetration than a blaster.

Hesperus wrote:For the record, a within-melta-range a heat lance has a 38.8% chance of a penetration and a 41.8% chance of any damage at all. Of course, it's AP 1, so it's more likely to deal lasting damage on a given penetration than a blaster.

And if you could take heat lances on wyches or warriors or trueborn instead of on reavers, that would be meaningful.

I know that the main thing I use my reavers for is simply because of my local metagame. I face alot of Space Wolves players that love to bring Long Fangs, and of course stick them in a building for the cover saves.

A 6 man reaver squad with two cluster caltrops will on average destroy a Long Fang squad, at least that has been the normal result for me(not very good at figuring MathHammer on the fly, so if someone wants to give the stats on 4 bladevanes and 2 caltrops vs a Long Fangs squad, feel free).

I know that anytime I can take out a Long Fang squad packing Missile Launchers and/or Plasma Cannons before the player can even use them, its always a good thing for my Raiders/Ravagers.

I also know that since my opponent knows what that Reaver squad can do to his Long Fangs, it affects both his deployment, and what he shoots at with them if he gets first turn.

Once again, it comes down to the Reavers saving my Raiders from taking a few high strength shots in the first turn so that they can deliver their precious cargo of Incubi/Wyches/Bloodbrides into the exact spot that they need to be to cause the most damage as soon as possible.

Its basically all comes down to if they can be used to your advantage. For competitive builds? Maybe not, although they have helped me in local tournaments with objective clearing/grabs in mid game(they are usually dead by turn five, but if they get me contestation of his objective for a turn and cause him to waste shots to regain his objective, they have again done their job).

Now, right near 170 pts for a 6 man with caltrops is not that bad, even though they are a bit more expensive than other units that can do better in CC. However, their ability to influence my opponent's deployment and shooting to the extent that they do is priceless to me. I look at it as they make their points cost in keeping other things alive, while they still kill as much as I can get them to.

Then again, it may just mean that the players in my local metagame aren't tourney ready also, but since we all have fun, its cool with me!!!

Yeah I am with Capt Karuthors here

The biggest thing people don't realize about reavers is that they just don't get targeted. With all the other threats in a DE army your opponent generally doesn't have enough firepower to go around. All his AT shots have to go to dropping ravagers and raiders, his anti-infantry has to go to the warriors, wyches and trueborn that spill out seriously what do you shoot at the unit with 4 blasters in it or the reavers?

OK so reavers are less good than other units why would I take them? Because late game when your mobility and AT is starting to dwindle tada you have fast moving AT to get the job done and even contest objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:And if you could take heat lances on wyches or warriors or trueborn instead of on reavers, that would be meaningful.

Dash what you are missing here is that you can easily take 6 squads of warriors, 3 squads of trueborn and still have points remaining, reavers are an excellent generalist unit to fill in gaps once you have started taking casualties in other places in your army, nobody is denying that there are better units in the DE codex than reavers, the assertion here is that reavers are not a suck unit. 156 points for 2 heatlances, decent anti-infantry, and boss mobility is something other codexes would give a testicle for.

Reaver Jetbikes -

1. They attack in the movement phase.

This ability alone makes them valuable. Sure you can get more attacks from cheaper units but in a support role, reaver jet bikes do the job better than any other. They can zoom on the board from your edge or from a WWP and engage and destroy single model units that may think they are safe or can be used to weaken any unit to set it up for another unit. 6-bike units with 2 caltrops are laying out an average of 8 S4 and 7 S6 attacks on a unit. That is invaluable for getting pain tokens onto the units you really want them on.

The 36" movement means you can darn near affect anything anywhere. Sure beasts may be buffer HTH but they will have a choice of one or two units to engage. I prefer to pick at the periphery of my opponent. To keep him bunched up.

The fear factor of bikes is invaluable. Compared to the other straight up HTH or shooty options that are out there.

Then of course there is the ultimate to try to setup. A 12" fllyby for 8S4 and 7 S6 hits followed by 8 4+ poison shots and 2 S6 AP1 shots followed by an assault with 10 S3 and 3 2+ poison attacks.

Certainly they die easy but tell me, what doesn't in the DE list?

I want them to die - I want my oppontent to screw up and focus on them - My view of the DE way of war is that all are expendable as long as they killed more than they are worth. So I find it perfectly acceptable to have an 1850 army that consists of one kalabite warrior and an archon with one wound if you have nothing left.

DAaddict wrote:Reaver Jetbikes -
Then of course there is the ultimate to try to setup. A 12" fllyby for 8S4 and 7 S6 hits followed by 8 4+ poison shots and 2 S6 AP1 shots followed by an assault with 10 S3 and 3 2+ poison attacks.

You can't do that unless you have two bike units. You can only use the bladevanes if you Turboboost, and if you Turboboost you have to go a minimum of 18" andyou can't shoot or assault that turn.

Fine - The point is that I have flexible ways to affect you. Leave yourself open to flyby, shooting, assault. Your choice but you will leave yourself open to one or the other.

DAaddict wrote:I want them to die - I want my oppontent to screw up and focus on them - My view of the DE way of war is that all are expendable as long as they killed more than they are worth. So I find it perfectly acceptable to have an 1850 army that consists of one kalabite warrior and an archon with one wound if you have nothing left.

Neither of these statements validates the bikes.

The first statement you make... I want my opponent to make at least one mistake per game. Thats great. I want my opponent to make a bunch of mistakes as well. But I also expect a certain calibre of opponent at a tourney anyway, one that doesn't make many or any mistakes. And if you've got a guy across from you who is prone to making poor decisions, then would you actually need a unit that is taken for the purpose of confusing someone who isn't that good in order to win?

The second statement... I'm ok with winning close games as well as blowouts. That's great. Me too. Again its a general statement. Bikes don't really have anything to do with that. You are saying that you are ok with losing a lot of models if it puts you in an advantageous position. Thats a relevant statement, and a good thing for everyone to be ready to do... but why are the bikes being 'better at dying' of any use?


There are a wide variety of things in the dark eldar codex that can hurt the exact same things that cluster caltrops hurt a full game turn sooner than the cluster caltrops. There are ample things in the dark eldar army that can hurt anything that a heat lance can hurt a full game turn sooner. Many of these things can complete these tasks from the safety of long range, where enemy special weapons are ignored, and where LOS terrain can interfere with enemy targeting.

Many of these things can complete these tasks from the safety of long range, where enemy special weapons are ignored, and where LOS terrain can interfere with enemy targeting.

That's fine, but then you can have other issues like: A. don't have the same manueverability/ for cost, or option to pass through a webway. B. Don't have AP1 which is very beneficial to DE. Enemy special weapons can be on top of a DE army much quicker than you think. There are so many builds that can deliver them to target with ease and shorten the board you are fighting on quite quickly. At that point, I'd rather have a unit that can kill a vehicle more reliably when it hits.

CaptKaruthors, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, as the ardent defender of the Reaver. I'm not going to say that I disagree with everything you said, as I don't, but greatly disagree with your overall assessment and the flippant manner in which you present it. I have yet to find a single game (35+ in the last 3-4 months) with DE where I thought a Reaver unit would make a difference. Admittedly, I've been winning much more than I lose and you learn more in defeat, but even in draw/defeat/narrow victory, they have not done well or left an impression.

That's not suggest they are useless or don't have application. Far from it. But I consistently find better things to use in both role and slot and remain unconvinced they are anything better than a preference unit, rather than something that confers anything resembling an edge. None of your arguments have convinced me otherwise, and actually quite the contrary as I see the responses and counterpoints from other posters/players.

How about some batreps Skarboy? I'd love to read about how you are playing the DE, the lists you are using, the opponents you are facing, etc.

CaptKaruthors, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, as the ardent defender of the Reaver. I'm not going to say that I disagree with everything you said, as I don't, but greatly disagree with your overall assessment and the flippant manner in which you present it.

Flippant? I've presented my case based on in game experiences. I've also stated several times that they don't work in every build. I'm not sure how any of that is deemed flippant...but whatever.

I have yet to find a single game (35+ in the last 3-4 months) with DE where I thought a Reaver unit would make a difference. Admittedly, I've been winning much more than I lose and you learn more in defeat, but even in draw/defeat/narrow victory, they have not done well or left an impression.

Fair enough. I seldom lose as well with the DE. In fact, you can read about a recent loss here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/345258.page

I will also be posting another Batrep up sometime tonight in which the Reaver/ heatlance proved invaluable.

That's not suggest they are useless or don't have application. Far from it.

Ok. So what exactly are you disagreeing with me on? You basically have just said what I've been saying. That they aren't useless and have application.

But I consistently find better things to use in both role and slot and remain unconvinced they are anything better than a preference unit, rather than something that confers anything resembling an edge.

If you don't see the advantage AP1 gives an army of any kind, well I can't really say any more on the matter. Additionally, I'm not trying to convince people that it's a better unit than X or Y. I'm saying you shouldn't dismiss it's uses to the army overall.

None of your arguments have convinced me otherwise, and actually quite the contrary as I see the responses and counterpoints from other posters/players.

Fair enough, but by my count it seems more people are in favor of using them than not using them in this thread. That doesn't really mean anything to me in terms of changing my position either.

How about some batreps Skarboy? I'd love to read about how you are playing the DE, the lists you are using, the opponents you are facing, etc.

Agreed! There isn't many DE Batreps out there.

Has anyone tried running a base unit of 3 simply to fly around and contest objectives at endgame? 36" range could change the look of that draw. Probably not pts efficient, but still an option.