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So in the rule update GW put out a month or so ago it says on page 5 that if a transport vehicle moves flat out and suffers a vehicle destroyed result, the people inside the vehicle are removed as casualties.
Now in the ork codex there is the ramshackle table which replaces what happens when a trukk suffers a "vehicle destroyed - result". Since the codex basically says "This is what happens when you suffer a vehicle destroyed" and all of the result say that the crew disembarks (whether safely or more violently), i say that the crew is not removed as casualties even if the trukk moved flat out.
Am I right in this assumption?

I agree with you. Codex specific rules over-rule general rules.

i'd say they're still dead. the regular rules also say the models disembark on 5 and 6 on the damage table yet they still can't when moving flat out... there is nothing in the ork rules about ignoring that completely separate rule. i guess the morale of the story is don't move flat out into cover when you've got troops embarked.

Likewise Codex trumps rulebook.

Ramshackle is very very orky.

I've always viewed an ork truck as a wheeled missile, with green submunitions

Codex does not trump rulebook. That's inaccurate shorthand for the real hierarchy, which is Specific trumps General. When two rules are in conflict, the more specific takes precedence. A codex rule is usually more specific than a rulebook rule, but not always.

In this case, Ramshackle might indeed take precedence if the FAQ said that the passengers are killed if the vehicle suffers a "Destroyed - Wrecked" result; since Ramshackle replaces the chart results. But that's not what the FAQ says.

The FAQ says that if a transport vehicle is "destroyed" (lower case, not referencing a specific chart result) in the same player turn that it moved Flat Out, the passengers are all removed as casualties. And Ramshackle doesn't prevent the vehicle from being destroyed.

Legendofstew, you ARE aware that this only happens if your vehicle is destroyed in YOUR turn, right?

warboss wrote:i'd say they're still dead. the regular rules also say the models disembark on 5 and 6 on the damage table yet they still can't when moving flat out... there is nothing in the ork rules about ignoring that completely separate rule. i guess the morale of the story is don't move flat out into cover when you've got troops embarked.

This, Ramshakle still says to disembark, one's till move flat-out in that player turn and as a result one is forbidden to disembark, dead orks.
Ramshakle is in no way more specific or in anyway overrides the "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase." and while that isn't perfectly clear that it measn 'for the rest of the turn' the Update is "Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70) A: They are removed as casualties." http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf.

Ramshackle asks one to disembark, one can not because of moving flat out, orks become the new windscreen.

Of course, there's almost no way for the ork vehicle to be killed in the Ork player's turn while moving Flat Out. The only way I can think of it Tank-shocking; can Trukks still take an upgrade to allow them to Tank Shock?

Yup. And they can ram, per the FAQ.

The Faq was written, i think, more to address the wych missile raiders that would ram your vehicle at S10 (due to speed), then the wyches in the exploded wreck of the raider would assault...

Works on orks too, but i've not heard of many ork players using this tactic..

I used to use this tactic, pre-FAQ. Most of my opponents were fine with it back then.

Ram at 18" = S8 hit. 6 for inches, 2 for counting as AV12. Hit an AV 14 vehicle, and you're auto-penetrated, with 50% of the results going to a Ramshackle roll.

Interesting. I've never included the 2 for counting as AV12 as I'm pretty sure it states it's against Death or Glory only (don't have Codex to hand...) - in which case, S6 hit only - and then only if you are actually 18" away (or 19" with RPJ)... Of course, I rarely still have embarked boyz at this stage, so exploding Trukk missiles don't upset my boyz....

ChrisCP wrote:Ramshakle is in no way more specific

Surely a rule which applies only to one particular fast vehicle is more specific than a rule that applies to all fast vehicles?

That said, there is not a conflict here. Ramshackle instructs you to disembark. Flat-Out says you may not and are destroyed.

If Ramshackle had some sort of exemption clause "may disembark regardless of usual restrictions" or something then it's specificity would cause it to take precedent over Flat-Out. But it doesn't.


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shealyr wrote:Ram at 18" = S8 hit. 6 for inches, 2 for counting as AV12. Hit an AV 14 vehicle, and you're auto-penetrated, with 50% of the results going to a Ramshackle roll.

How were you getting S6 from your movement? You get +1S for each full 3" moved. Since 18" is your maximum you would have to be EXACTLY 18" away - not a millimetre more or less. In practice it is utterly impossible, you could only get S5. Even with RPJ allowing you to move an extra inch it's still pretty difficult.

Also, the +2 armour is only applicable to resolving Death or Glory - this is explicitly stated.

Ramshaclke allows the orks to disembark. It is specific enough to over-ride the FAQ:
"If a trukk sufferes a Vehicle Destroyed! or Vehicle Explodes! (wrecked) result, roll on the Ramshackle table below and apply the result instead of the usual effects [emphasis mine]."

It tells you to follow it's own text instead of the text of the usual result.

Unfortunately, the Flat-Out passenger killing effect doesn't care what effect destroyed the vehicle, just that it was destroyed. Mannahnin already covered that point.

Scott-S6 wrote:It tells you to follow it's own text instead of the text of the usual result.

Unfortunately, the Flat-Out passenger killing effect doesn't care what effect destroyed the vehicle, just that it was destroyed. Mannahnin already covered that point.

Not quite. One of the "usual effects" on a destroyed vehicle that moved flat out is that the passengers are killed, as per the FAQ. The ramshackle rule tells to to ignore the "usual effects."

No, the "usual effect" are the chart results.

The inability of passengers on a Fast vehicle to get out in the limited circumstance that it is destroyed in the same Player Turn that it goes Flat Out is a more specific and limited circumstance than either the regular damage chart or the Ramshackle damage chart.

That said, it's almost never going to come up.

Mannahnin wrote:No, the "usual effect" are the chart results.

The inability of passengers on a Fast vehicle to get out in the limited circumstance that it is destroyed in the same Player Turn that it goes Flat Out is a more specific and limited circumstance than either the regular damage chart or the Ramshackle damage chart.

That said, it's almost never going to come up.

It's "effects", plural. The ramschackle table replaces them all.

Yes, but inability to disembark is not a usual effect of Destroyed! - Wrecked or Destroyed! - Explodes. It's an effect of moving flat out beforehand.

Yes, it replaces all the normal chart results.

Again, if GW meant for the FAQ ruling to apply only to "Destroyed - Wrecked " and "Destroyed - Explodes" the FAQ ruling probably wouldn't say "destroyed", which encompasses and is fully compatible with the Ramshackle chart results.

Mannahnin wrote:Yes, it replaces all the normal chart results.

Again, if GW meant for the FAQ ruling to apply only to "Destroyed - Wrecked " and "Destroyed - Explodes" the FAQ ruling probably wouldn't say "destroyed", which encompasses and is fully compatible with the Ramshackle chart results.

agreed. the ramshackle stuff simply replaces the results of the normal vehicle damage table when a 5 or 6 is rolled (with modifiers). the flat out rule is NOT a part of what is being replaced and is a totally separate rule in a separate part of the book and is NOT replaced.

I regret using the word "replace." The ork codex directs you to "apply" the result of the ramshackle table so it doesn't really replace anything. As for "usual effects" --there are no _normal_ circumstances under which passengers can disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out.

I belive the "Move Flat out Passangers are killed rule" only applies to Skimmers.

Ork Trukks arn't skimmers.

Grey Templar wrote:I belive the "Move Flat out Passangers are killed rule" only applies to Skimmers.

Ork Trukks arn't skimmers.

No, Flat-Out is for all Fast vehicles moving over 12".

maxpower3579 wrote:I agree with you. Codex specific rules over-rule general rules.

+1

Its true for all other armies, why not for orks?

labmouse42 wrote:

maxpower3579 wrote:I agree with you. Codex specific rules over-rule general rules.

+1

Its true for all other armies, why not for orks?

Indeed! It comes down to whether or not you think the exact language of the ramshackle rule (which I quoted above) is specific enough. Clearly it is.

Or else it isnt specific enough to prevent passengers being killed, because it clearly isnt.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or else it isnt specific enough to prevent passengers being killed, because it clearly isnt.

We disagree. Clearly.

Mainly because the usual result has nothing to do with whether passengers would be killed - so you still end up with a Wreck, and the result of a Wreck after a flat out move in the same player turn is for passengers to be removed.

It does NOT state for you to not apply the consequences of a Wrecked! result, so you have to....

labmouse42 wrote:

maxpower3579 wrote:I agree with you. Codex specific rules over-rule general rules.

+1

Its true for all other armies, why not for orks?

Specific rules trump more general ones (if they conflict) regardless of source. That's the way a permissive-with-exceptions-based ruleset generally works. USUALLY a codex rule is going to be more specific than a rulebook rule, but not always. However in this case the two are not in conflict; they are fully compatible.

In this case the Ramshackle rule overrides the "usual effects" of a Trukk being Destroyed, replacing the "Destroyed - Wrecked" and "Destroyed - Explodes" results with their own unique chart.

Even if you think they do conflict, more specific and limited in application than the usual effects of a vehicle being destroyed, are the rules for Fast Transports that the passengers cannot disembark in the same player turn that the vehicle moves Flat Out, and the FAQ ruling clarifying that this kills them if the vehicle is destroyed in that player turn and they would have been forced to disembark.

In order of increasing specificity:
Regular Destroyed vehicle damage results.
Ramshackle chart replacing them.
Rule on Fast Skimmer Transports moving Flat Out and not disembarking passengers.
FAQ ruling.

You may interpret it differently, but the intent of the FAQ ruling appears to be to prevent shenanigans with ramming transports into things to get around the prohibition on getting out of a Fast vehicle moving Flat Out. Ramming to destroy your own vehicle, disembark and assault to gain 6-7" (Red Paint Job) or 12" (or even more with Aethersails or Star Engines) more assault distance is an unintended exploit, and they've closed the loophole with this ruling.

olympia wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

maxpower3579 wrote:I agree with you. Codex specific rules over-rule general rules.

+1

Its true for all other armies, why not for orks?

Indeed! It comes down to whether or not you think the exact language of the ramshackle rule (which I quoted above) is specific enough. Clearly it is.

So the Ramshackle rule tells you to disembark your Orks...so you can disembark them 10" away from the wreck? You can disembark them on top of enemy models?

Which rules exactly are replaced by the Ramshackle rule and which aren't?

The rules against passengers disembarking from a flat-out moving vehicle are not found in the damage tables, it is found on page 70 in the rules for fast vehicles (appropriately).

The normal rules for vehicles calls for passengers in a destroyed vehicle to disembark, but that restriction overrides if the vehicle moved flat-out that turn.

The ramshackle rules in exactly the same way (just with slightly different rules) require the Orks to disembark when their Trukk is destroyed. Again the same restriction applies. If the Trukk moved flat-out and was destroyed in the same player turn then the models aren't allowed to disembark and are therefore destroyed.

The ramshackle rules are NO MORE SPECIFIC then the basic rules, so there is no reason to assume that any normal restrictions wouldn't still apply. You still have to disembark within 2" of a trukk that is destroyed with Ramshackle, you still can't disembark on top of enemy models, etc, etc, etc. And you can't disembark from a vehicle that moved flat-out in the same player turn.

A red herring yakface. Disembarking on the other side of the table is never part of the "usual effects" of anything. However, destroying passengers of destroyed vehicles that moved flat out is _always_ the case unless otherwise specified. This is exactly what the ork codex does.