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Concussive strat only works against infantry. I would pare down the custodian guard squads to fit the vexilla in, or swap to a different detachment (vanguard and/or spearhead) and use wardens and Aquilons instead. But up to you, the durability of the shield guard may be more useful if you’ve got a lot of objectives to hold.

I'm curious, if we were to ever get a custodes codex 2.0, what would you like to see in it?

I would like to see the sisters of silence baked into the codex for some awsome talons of the emperor action. Creating different boni for taking sisters in a detatchment would be awsome too. Like you get a bonus if you play pure custodes, you get a different one if you play pure sisters (yes, I'd want that to be possible too) and you get antoher bonus if you play a mixed detachment.

I'd also like to see more flavourful special rules for the custodian guard to emphasize their elite warrior status. Like if you have at least 2 sword and board guys in a unit, the unit is -1 to hit in melee only.
Or if you have at least 2 spear guys in a unit, they get something akin to the block rule they briefly had in 7th ed.

What would be on your wishlist so to speak?

They're already so Elite in stats and rules to begin with. Just appropriate pricing (so many things are pretty close to begin with) and we would be solid. That said, better Dreads would be good, and Land Raiders already have universal problems that can't be fixed in the codex itself.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They're already so Elite in stats and rules to begin with. Just appropriate pricing (so many things are pretty close to begin with) and we would be solid. That said, better Dreads would be good, and Land Raiders already have universal problems that can't be fixed in the codex itself.

Are they though? Sure they are very good against other multi wound, elite infantry, not so much against hordes and sure they are very durable according to their stats, but stats don't really matter as much as who gets the charge. If you get charged by khorne berzerkers, you die. If you get chargen by ork boyz you're probably dead also because of the absolutely ridiculous number of dice thrown at you.
The changes I proposed would only make them more durable against stuff thats already amazingly strong in melee.

Edit: Also I think this whole changing of point values to fix balance in this edition just doesn't tackle the underlying issue of the stupid number of dice, ridiculous abundance of re-rolls and dependence to get the charge.

Full choppa unit charging and somehow getting into combat(never happened to me vs custodes even with my 25mm bases as opponents position correctly) gets less than 5 wounds in average vs custodians. In practice less

You think in absolute ideal scenario full ork unit costing over 200 pts vs carelessly positioned unit shouldn't kill even 1 custodian?

Agreed with above, math above all not anecdotal experiences.

Think about if from the other players POV, if they charged your unit with a horde of 20 bio-engineered CC killing machines and failed to do any meaningful damage on a regular basis, would they be likely to cry out for buffs to Ork Boyz in the Ork version 2 codex?

I also disagree wholeheartedly that there is anything that cannot be appropriately balanced with points. Lets take it to the extreme and say that Custodian Guard go down to 10ppm or something crazy in the upcoming CA. Do you think being vulnerable to weight of dice and failing charges would still be one of your balance complaints when you can afford to bring 5 times as many into the same sized army? Of course not, they would be crazy overpowered and the nasty Orks or Khorne Beserkers you're worried about wouldn't stand a chance.

That's never gonna happpen but it does show that between 50+ ppm and 10ppm there must be a point at which your perceived idea of balance between these two types of units is effectively equal, right?

Its just up to GW to find that price-point.

So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?

Tiberias wrote:
So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?

I don't think that's what anyone said.

I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).

Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?

I don't think that's what anyone said.

I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).

Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).

Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.

I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?

I don't think that's what anyone said.

I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).

Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).

Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.

I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.

I don't think squad composition bonuses make sense for Custodes when viewed with their background of being high individual soldiers that don't really fight together as a single unit.

 Ordana wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
So you think if we ever were to get an updated codex, only points values should be adjusted?

I don't think that's what anyone said.

I'd like our Codex to get scrapped and replaced with Codex: Talons of the Emperor. Bring in FW's line of Sisters of Silence too. Give us like 3-6 'Chapters' to pick from for bonuses. Some type of Lieutenant-eauivalent would be nice too (ideally a SoS generic HQ since we could use one of those anyway).

Probably very unlikely, but I'd love if a SoS unit could also be turned into Troops (I guess the Bolter squad is most likely).

Maybe I expressed myself badly, I did not infer that this was the only thing you thought should change. As I've mentioned previously, I completely agree with you, a codex Talons of the Emperor would be really great.

I was just wondering if you thought that regarding for example the custodian guard, only points values should change. Also I don't claim that my suggestions were great and should be implemeted as is, I just think they would be very flavourful and fit the unit well. Now I just personally think that giving them a flavourful special rule for including a certain amout of shield/spear guys in a unit or mixing them, would be really cool considering we do not have a lot of variety as far as units are concerned. This might combat that lack of variety when you can tailor the unit and the bonuses they get based on their composition of sword/board and spear guys according to your matchup.

I don't think squad composition bonuses make sense for Custodes when viewed with their background of being high individual soldiers that don't really fight together as a single unit.

You're right actually, can't really argue with that. Well, disregard what I said

You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

That would be really cool.I hope they do that if our codex ever get updated

The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.

Yeah they're pretty sweet for the cost, Adrasite spears are solid as well being Assault and the same cost as Guardian Spears - you don't sacrifice all your shooting while hoofing it up the field if the squad is footslogging. One point of interest I noted recently is that 'Piercing Strike' only works for conventional Guardian Spears from the codex, as the strat mentions them by name. Maybe we can petition GW to have the stratagem wording extended to cover the new unit as well.

Spartacus wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.

Yeah they're pretty sweet for the cost, Adrasite spears are solid as well being Assault and the same cost as Guardian Spears - you don't sacrifice all your shooting while hoofing it up the field if the squad is footslogging. One point of interest I noted recently is that 'Piercing Strike' only works for conventional Guardian Spears from the codex, as the strat mentions them by name. Maybe we can petition GW to have the stratagem wording extended to cover the new unit as well.

The forgeworld terminators don't get the vanilla terminator rules or strats. I don't see this happening, either, unfortunately. Maybe in a Custodes Supplement? That would be dope.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?

But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.

Tiberias wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?

But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.

Yup. I hope I didn't confuse you.

Tiberias wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?

But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.

Would still be rather tough for opponent to deal with though. Do you split fire? Say hello to multiple wounded but 100% damage outputting models. Concentrate? Say hello to wasted firepower.

That would be nasty.

 _SeeD_ wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
The melta spears seem like a real win, only 4 points more than regular spears. Take your off misericordia and slap them on your guys. I'm thinking 5 melta spears and a storm shielded Magnifica go into the Coronus, dump the guys into melta range and next turn vexilla homer your terminators in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
You could make “unleash the lions” apply to any Custodes unit, not just Allarus. Or make it a pre-game deployment option for some units, like combat squads.

Man that would be frustrating for the other guy. I would be unleashing like 10 guys at a time. Can you imagine facing 20+ custodes and only being able to charge or shoot at them one at a time?

But you could just declare charges against all of them if you can reach them, can you not? Even if there are 10 seperate units of singleton custodes.

Yup. I hope I didn't confuse you.

Confuse me? I just don't understand the issue then. It would not make a big difference when charging them and shooting is too strong in 8th anyway. You couldn't focus fire the entire unit...so what? Custodes are very low in numbers anyway and we usually do not have many cp, so in combination with re-rolls and other strategems, you most likely could not split up every unit. Making it a bit harder to shoot your infantry off the table would maybe enable lists that don't play caladius tanks and telemons every single time to be competitive.

I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.

One thing I'd like to see is making the basic custodes gun a bit more efficient, in the end, it's just a master crafted bolter. The 2 damage is nice, but it's not often when it comes into play considering that you dont really do a whole lot of shooting(or have guys with the guns for that matter) outside of praetors who have different guns.

It could be a myriad of different thing in the end. Rapid fire 2 would be my choice.

EDIT: with the caveat that forge world is not really played around here, otherwise I'd be down with them sagittarum - they seem ace.

Spartacus wrote:I think it could just be a bit of an administrative nightmare within the game if abused, mostly for your opponents shooting. With Allarus its kind've curtailed by their relative cost, but if you could split up Custodian Guard squads it would just be unwieldy if your opponent had to constantly split shooting to be efficient.

So all those Iron Hands players would suddenly have to think how they focus all their shooting?! You're right we couldn't do that, how would they ever cope?

wighti wrote:One thing I'd like to see is making the basic custodes gun a bit more efficient, in the end, it's just a master crafted bolter. The 2 damage is nice, but it's not often when it comes into play considering that you dont really do a whole lot of shooting(or have guys with the guns for that matter) outside of praetors who have different guns.

It could be a myriad of different thing in the end. Rapid fire 2 would be my choice.

EDIT: with the caveat that forge world is not really played around here, otherwise I'd be down with them sagittarum - they seem ace.

I get that, however it seems to me as though GW has designed custodes as a melee focused force. I say keep our shooting crappy in the sense that we have a low volume of fire, but if we wound we do more damage like the guardian spears do, but give us better tools to really be a melee centered army. Like giving one of our weapons two profiles: a focused attack with high strength and ap and a sweep attack where every attack counts as three, but with lower strength to be able to deal with hordes.

I think we're already plenty deadly to hordes and armor (Hurricane Jetbikes, Aquilons, e.t.c.). What we could really use for melee is more reliability GETTING into combat. Some type of re-roll charge aura, maybe a 3D6 stratagem, e.t.c. This would help us out IMMENSLY I think.

Audustum wrote:
I think we're already plenty deadly to hordes and armor (Hurricane Jetbikes, Aquilons, e.t.c.). What we could really use for melee is more reliability GETTING into combat. Some type of re-roll charge aura, maybe a 3D6 stratagem, e.t.c. This would help us out IMMENSLY I think.

Getting at least some help charging would be great I agree. Like a 2-3cp stratagem that lets us advance and charge.

Also yes, our jetbikes are very good against hordes. I am just advocating for our infantry to get something useful in that regard also (leaving forge world aside for a moment, because we all know that our uber-terminators from forgeworld basically do everything better than our codex units). With sagittarium becoming troops I fear that our normal custodian guard will fade into obscurity in time should they not get at least something, doesn't have to be as powerful as the buttload of hurricane bolter shots our bikes can dish out, but something.
Because let's be honest, if someone goes for a battalion nowadays the sagittarium are just more attractive as a troop choice that you can park on a backfield objective in good conscience. If you do that with our normal custodian guard they just feel wasted. The sagittarium are cheaper, shoot better, and are no slouch in melee either if you give them misericordias.

You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.

 _SeeD_ wrote:
You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.

You could with the adrasite and phyrrite spears, but I disagree that you could do it very well with the sword/shield and the sagittarium loadout. I've built 16 custodian guard so far. Most of them with spears, some with sword n board and I was very adamant about giving every single one a different pose, because that was just something that was important to me and I was able to do so quite well by mixing them with the warden kit. If I initially build a guard in a pose that looks good with a spear for example I could never bring myself to magnetize that model just so I can slap a sword and a shield on it in a weird position, it would just look horrendously awful in my opinion. So just for me personally, that would never be an option.

Also I kinda fail to see your point in regards to my previous post.

Tiberias wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.

You could with the adrasite and phyrrite spears, but I disagree that you could do it very well with the sword/shield and the sagittarium loadout. I've built 16 custodian guard so far. Most of them with spears, some with sword n board and I was very adamant about giving every single one a different pose, because that was just something that was important to me and I was able to do so quite well by mixing them with the warden kit. If I initially build a guard in a pose that looks good with a spear for example I could never bring myself to magnetize that model just so I can slap a sword and a shield on it in a weird position, it would just look horrendously awful in my opinion. So just for me personally, that would never be an option.

Also I kinda fail to see your point in regards to my previous post.

I wasn't responding to you, broski. That's why I didn't use a quote. =)

 _SeeD_ wrote:
You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.

Can't magnatize Sagittarum. They're a different base size (smaller) than the rest. Otherwise good!

Audustum wrote:

 _SeeD_ wrote:
You can magnetize your guardians to equip guardian spears, adrasite spears, melta spears, sentinal blade/SS or the Sagittarum loadout depending on what situation you think you're going to face.

Can't magnatize Sagittarum. They're a different base size (smaller) than the rest. Otherwise good!

Are tournaments picky about stuff like that? Casual play (I hope) would be alright.
I'm looking at the forgeworld page and I'm a little baffled. Why the hell are the bases smaller? The custodian guard sprues that are supplied are EXACTLY the same as the GW ones.
Edit: Also, forgeworld sells the Sagittarum as an upgrade kit, expecting you to add it on to your guardians. Makes no sense.