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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

*SNIP*

Argument unrelated to overall discussion. Not tremendously worth arguing the wargear.

Deleted to keep thread topic related, not personal.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 05:39:46


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

 JNAProductions wrote:
What do they have stock? No melee weapon at all?


A captain on a Bike comes with an Interceptor Lance, which is S+1 ap-3 and d3 damage. As a Jetbike unit they reroll wounds on a charge and have the following profile for basic stats, while receiving extra toughness from the Bike, etc.
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan15-ShieldCaptain2xn.jpg]


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

It doesn't seem needed. It's certainly not a bad investment for 4 points (but does it work like a chainsword where you get the extra attack?) but, since the Captain already has a weapon, I'd consider a luxury. A luxury you can probably afford, since Custodes, but, you know.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 04:52:45


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

So, what do we know for sure right now? I'm thinking about starting a bike-heavy Custodes army, and I'd like whatever solid info we have.

Might be good to slap it in the OP too.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Cephalobeard wrote:
changemod wrote:
You're missing the point there a fair bit. You're upselling it as an amazing thing, when in actuality it's not particularly worthwhile in a vacuum and only really comes into play as something to do with the spare points caused by nothing being cheap in a Custodes list, so poor granularity.


Yeesh, what a harsh turn of discussion.

I'm not "missing the point" by disagreeing about the usefulness of a 4pt upgrade available to an army that, depending on construction, will end up having points to spare due to, as you mentioned, the expensive nature of the army.

Edit:

I'll note, yes. It IS an amazing thing when you have the spare points. It's one of your only wargear options, costs 4pts, helps your heroic intervention attacks, and you'll almost always have 4pts left over. It's just a, functionally in almost all mono-custodes lists and likely lists using them as allies, free thing to throw on. Don't be a Weiner.


I'm not sure why you're getting so up in arms about this: It costs the same as a power sword, has worse AP, and only counts for one attack whereas a power sword bought for a standard character would contribute to every attack they made.

It would be amazing -on a sagitarrum guard- who has no other Melee weapon but a standard Custodes profile well suited to melee. Otherwise, it's paying full cost for something that will only see partial use. You can't really afford to give it out to most Custodes because it'll add up fast when taken in multiples.

Meanwhile one extra almost-power sword attack on an already high end combat character serves no real purpose beyond a little extra security blanket against the possibility of the dice turning on you. It's never something exciting, just an afterthought.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

changemod wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
changemod wrote:
You're missing the point there a fair bit. You're upselling it as an amazing thing, when in actuality it's not particularly worthwhile in a vacuum and only really comes into play as something to do with the spare points caused by nothing being cheap in a Custodes list, so poor granularity.


Yeesh, what a harsh turn of discussion.

I'm not "missing the point" by disagreeing about the usefulness of a 4pt upgrade available to an army that, depending on construction, will end up having points to spare due to, as you mentioned, the expensive nature of the army.

Edit:

I'll note, yes. It IS an amazing thing when you have the spare points. It's one of your only wargear options, costs 4pts, helps your heroic intervention attacks, and you'll almost always have 4pts left over. It's just a, functionally in almost all mono-custodes lists and likely lists using them as allies, free thing to throw on. Don't be a Weiner.


I'm not sure why you're getting so up in arms about this: It costs the same as a power sword, has worse AP, and only counts for one attack whereas a power sword bought for a standard character would contribute to every attack they made.

It would be amazing -on a sagitarrum guard- who has no other Melee weapon but a standard Custodes profile well suited to melee. Otherwise, it's paying full cost for something that will only see partial use. You can't really afford to give it out to most Custodes because it'll add up fast when taken in multiples.

Meanwhile one extra almost-power sword attack on an already high end combat character serves no real purpose beyond a little extra security blanket against the possibility of the dice turning on you. It's never something exciting, just an afterthought.


Which is why he's not saying give it to everyone-he's saying give it to your captains.

Plus, Custodes are, what, 40 points base? That's 10 Knives to drop a single model. Assuming you go cheap. (Well, "cheap".)

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

I'm tentative on updating it until the codex is released, as information is largely produced through leaks and early reviews, and many of those media's report slightly incorrect information.

Regarding Bikes we know the following (with salt)

14" Move, 6" Advance (no roll)
T6, 4W on the normal guys
Option for Missiles or Hurricane Bolters.

I'll gather the information from GW and update this post accordingly with it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 05:37:55


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 Cephalobeard wrote:
Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol



Actually, I wanted to see I'm more your mirror than your opposite. I don't like them on captains, but jamming them on to Guard/Wardens en masse sounds like it could really add up! More expensive but worth thinking about to me.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Here are the weapon profiles for the Bikers, as well as the Bikers specific Stratagem while they're being discussed. Will update the OP as well.
[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-SalvoLauncher2uf.jpg]

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Lance3ys.jpg]

[Thumb - 40kCustodes-Jan17-Dive4ha (1).jpg]


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

I'm confused about when you'd want to use the Flakk Missiles. The Melta Missiles seem almost universally better.

Edit: Also, thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 05:02:18


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Audustum wrote:
 Cephalobeard wrote:
Entirely agreed. Also, yeah, it's just a 4pt ap-2 chainsword.

Happy to move on to the next thing lol



Actually, I wanted to see I'm more your mirror than your opposite. I don't like them on captains, but jamming them on to Guard/Wardens en masse sounds like it could really add up! More expensive but worth thinking about to me.


Totally an option!

If you can guarantee they get in combat, the attacks add up rapidly. Compare it as JNA did previously, where a stock Custodes without wargear is 40pts, you could also add 10 s5 ap-2 1d attacks for equal points on other units. Not implying that is, necessarily, a solid choice, but it's something you could try on a variety of units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I'm confused about when you'd want to use the Flakk Missiles. The Melta Missiles seem almost universally better.

Edit: Also, thanks!


A good number of people far better at mathhammer than I came to the same conclusion. Flakk is pretty bad almost always, unless you're shooting at gun drones or gargoyles for some reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 05:08:57


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Cephalobeard wrote:
I'm not even a little up in arms. I wrote a long post for you after two short ones because you opted to condescendingly imply I wasn't understanding you. I'm not bothered. I'm offering you the benefit of a doubt of explaining my intention instead of writing two single sentence posts.


As much as conversations on this format of forum have a tendency to drip with whithering passive aggressiveness to the point of putting me off spending much time on them in the past few years, reading "You're missing the point" as a condescending statement seems a bit odd.

Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

Bikes were just confirmed as 35£/$60, so not only do they rest as the most efficient unit points wise but they're very efficient for the wallet, as well. Much more than expected.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/23 05:36:49


Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




changemod wrote:


Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.


Totally agree, but on the other hand I'm sure someone up against a Custodes list will also agree. My first impressions are that bike units will suffer from being the obvious threat and therefore focussed down to the exclusion of all else. If I had a bunch of lascannons and had to choose between shooting a wall of Custodian Guard with storm shields, a Venerable Land Raider/Contemptor (if you take these for some weird reason), or a unit of Vertus Praetors, I would pick the bikes every time for exactly the reasons you listed. They are tough, but not that tough for 90 points. The Vexilla helps durability vs ranged shooting, but to keep the bikes in range of it you give up their mobility.

As such, even though they are powerful and capable I don't think they will be a great fit into a pure Custodes force. They will either rush forward, get isolated and taken out before your footsloggers get into the fight, or sit back under the protection of the murderball in which case you might as well just take more Custodian Guard troop units.

Of course that's where the beauty of the Vertus Shield Captain becomes apparent, your opponent will have no option to attack them with the scary multi damage heavy weapons until you choose to reveal them. While you do give up considerable efficiency in offensive capability, the Bike-Captains also fill out HQ slots so you will find it significantly easier to form Battalions etc. They are also great candidates for many of the hugely powerful Relics that Custodes appear to have available.

I see that many people in the community have caught onto this idea and are formulating armies including several of them. 'Bike-Captain spam' is already a term I've seen used. I assume this is the logic behind the trend and just thought it might be valuable to lay out my own thoughts on the matter for others to read/ignore
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






BrianDavion wrote:
I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.


The book is out there if you look, everything, points, etc....

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Another thought about the land raider.

Is it made obsolete by jet bikes as a transport? The jet bikes even a unit of 5 of them are cheaper than the LR+ 5 man boys, hit harder, have more shooting(is it better shooting?).

The other thing is are they tougher and more survivable? The lr being a hard candy shell over a jawbreaker I guess is alright but doesn't seem worth it compared.

I'm stubbornly not a fan of the jet bikes but I won't disagree with how good they are. I don't want to be playing white gold scars.

It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Amishprn86 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think this thread may be slightly pre-mature as until we get the codex, stuff like points efficancy etc won't be something we can really discuss.


The book is out there if you look, everything, points, etc....


I’ve been looking, but can’t find the points for the Terminator Shield Captain and can the Vexillas take the axe as well?

Got a rough setup in mind, but gonna be close on points!


NVM, new youtube vid up showing page by page.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 11:37:48


 
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





I think the Flakk missiles on the bikes might be good against the usual big guys like Magnus, Mortarion, Bloodthirster etc.
They all fly, so even while moving you will hit them on 2+. You also have D3 shots instead of 1 and the AP does not really matter, since they have a good Inv Save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just mathhammered it:

The Flakk missile does 0.83 damage on average on Magnus, while the Melta missile does 0.78. So the Flakk is better in this case.
Btw the Hurricane Bolter does 1.11 damage on Magnus in rapid fire range, so is even better... if you are closer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 11:51:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Astmeister wrote:
I think the Flakk missiles on the bikes might be good against the usual big guys like Magnus, Mortarion, Bloodthirster etc.
They all fly, so even while moving you will hit them on 2+. You also have D3 shots instead of 1 and the AP does not really matter, since they have a good Inv Save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just mathhammered it:

The Flakk missile does 0.83 damage on average on Magnus, while the Melta missile does 0.78. So the Flakk is better in this case.
Btw the Hurricane Bolter does 1.11 damage on Magnus in rapid fire range, so is even better... if you are closer.


It takes 8 melta missiles to kill a leman russ. 8 bikers in rapid fire range does 4.444 wounds.

Honestly, GW need to make melta missiles better, the custodes have pretty much 2 sources of ranged damage.
   
Made in fr
Dakka Veteran





If you stand still with the bikes, the melta missiles just need 6 shots for a Leman Russ. ;-)
I think the overall shooting of Custodes is very bad, but this is the case for every army with increasing "elite-status".
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Astmeister wrote:
If you stand still with the bikes, the melta missiles just need 6 shots for a Leman Russ. ;-)
I think the overall shooting of Custodes is very bad, but this is the case for every army with increasing "elite-status".


Being that shooting is a lot better than melee, it is going to be an issue for custodes. Why make the bikers the only one with anti tank fire? And then make it heavy. It makes little sense.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

Spartacus wrote:
changemod wrote:


Anyhow yeah most units in this codex, at least all the non-vehicle ones, tend to overlap massively in role and capability. In that context, bikers stand out as very much the most efficient unit: More than double the movement, higher survivability and a decent output of small arms fire not really found elsewhere.


Totally agree, but on the other hand I'm sure someone up against a Custodes list will also agree. My first impressions are that bike units will suffer from being the obvious threat and therefore focussed down to the exclusion of all else. If I had a bunch of lascannons and had to choose between shooting a wall of Custodian Guard with storm shields, a Venerable Land Raider/Contemptor (if you take these for some weird reason), or a unit of Vertus Praetors, I would pick the bikes every time for exactly the reasons you listed. They are tough, but not that tough for 90 points. The Vexilla helps durability vs ranged shooting, but to keep the bikes in range of it you give up their mobility.

As such, even though they are powerful and capable I don't think they will be a great fit into a pure Custodes force. They will either rush forward, get isolated and taken out before your footsloggers get into the fight, or sit back under the protection of the murderball in which case you might as well just take more Custodian Guard troop units.

Of course that's where the beauty of the Vertus Shield Captain becomes apparent, your opponent will have no option to attack them with the scary multi damage heavy weapons until you choose to reveal them. While you do give up considerable efficiency in offensive capability, the Bike-Captains also fill out HQ slots so you will find it significantly easier to form Battalions etc. They are also great candidates for many of the hugely powerful Relics that Custodes appear to have available.

I see that many people in the community have caught onto this idea and are formulating armies including several of them. 'Bike-Captain spam' is already a term I've seen used. I assume this is the logic behind the trend and just thought it might be valuable to lay out my own thoughts on the matter for others to read/ignore

I think it remains to be seen how good the HQ Custidians are, compared to normal guys.

The issue is that normal guys are so good. They carry the same weapons as the HQs, hit on 2s as well and have the same strength. More normal guys give you more attacks with your spears and axes.

I think there's a pretty strong case for an infantry HQ with an axe. Axe units like wardens will likely be focussed down if you foot slog, but characters cannot be. So I think you'll want to give axes to your Vexillae and maybe have a shield captain with axe kicking around too.

Biker captains that stay behind your lines may as well be cheaper infantry captains - especially since that way the infantry will actually benefit from their buffs. They cost nearly twice the price as a biker, but don't compare very well to two bikers in my opinion.

I think maybe a unit of Wardens are worth teleporting in. As ever, the difficulty is justifying why not to just take more bikes though. If you can line up a clever bit of teleport shenanigans, possibly involving a vexilla with the bodyguard teleporter relic and Celestine, then you can get their axes to work. But actually bikers do very similar damage to axes on the charge, so more bikes and more hurricane bolters are always going to be good.

A lot of people are looking at the biker counter-charge stratagem as a tactic against enemy assaults, but I don't think that's its only role. It really increases the threat from bikes because they are just going to keep on charging. If you're up against a gunline and any of your bikes are alive and not engaged in the enemy assault phase you can charge and kill something, so the unit can go through two enemy units a turn instead of just one.

Now that might not always be a great use of 3CP, but I think it ha the effect of really forcing your opponent to kill your bikes. Field enough of them and he'll struggle to do so.

I'm really not sure whether Custodes are best as a solo army or allied with something else. Sisters might actually be quite a good option, because Celestine exists. You can make a cheap battalion of them that might do a little bit of work from you occasionally.

That said, IG remain clearly the obvious choice to team up with Custodes. Honestly I'm not sure what they really bring to the IG party though. IG aren't scared of being charged right now. Adding a few bikes might help an IG army but they could just as easily add more guns instead, for the same or better result.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






I'm doing Custodes and SOB, 3-4 Doms squads with Celestine is going to be fun.

I just dont know how i want my bikers yet, I might make them my more AT/MC and the Doms all SB's or make my Bikes AI and the SoB AT. I also have a Xiphon interceptor.

Like you, i think IG will be amazing with them, bring the 3++/FnP Shield captain with 1-2 units of Bikes and fill in with IG for the rest of the 1200-1500pts

15k+
3k
Emperor's Spears 2k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I was going to go just over 1k of Custodes and just under 1k of Guard, however, I’ve now changed that up, to a Custodes Vanguard of ~1k, a battalion of Guard and a battalion of Admech.

68 models in an army that contains Guard

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 12:59:15


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm doing Custodes and SOB, 3-4 Doms squads with Celestine is going to be fun.

I just dont know how i want my bikers yet, I might make them my more AT/MC and the Doms all SB's or make my Bikes AI and the SoB AT. I also have a Xiphon interceptor.

Like you, i think IG will be amazing with them, bring the 3++/FnP Shield captain with 1-2 units of Bikes and fill in with IG for the rest of the 1200-1500pts


sisters AT is more points effective
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/23 13:27:38


They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




West Midlands

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Hey, Hey.

My FLGS with likely be doing an Escalation league, as well.

Personally I would advise starting that endeavor with either a Patrol or a Supreme command.

Mine will just be a supreme command of 3x Captains on Bikes w/ Daggers once I catch the second round of it.


Sorry, I didn't see this originally!

I wonder if these are too elite to do a 500pt starting league with, although later on they would be nice to splash in once it hits 1-2k. Considering 1 player has guard, the other has orks, it would be... three to four models, vs 20+ in the first game, which would be amusing.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 obsidiankatana wrote:
Regarding the bog standard Custodian Guard (I know, I know, not the best unit by a long shot in this book!), what do people think of swords vs spears? Prior it was sword and board all day from my POV, due to a 3++ vs a 5++ with the only benefit of a spear being +1STR.

The difference is closer now at 3++ vs 4++, but is it still worth it grabbing sword and board? It occurs to me that this is still their only non-HQ unit capable of getting 3++ and the statline of the spear is hardly unique (what with bikes having a spear that re-roll wounds, if doesn't benefit from guardian spear stratagem).


It grinds my teeth that the termies don't get a 3++.
   
 
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