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It seems unfortunately like the Eldar Codex, the Heavy Support slots in the DE codex have been jammed filled with goodies that we won't be able to fit in.
The Ravager seems to be in every single competitive list. Everyone is taking 3 Ravagers possibly because they are no other models for the other choices yet. If you don't take the Ravagers how do you make up for the Anti-Tank?

Talos Pain Engine - This seems like a weaker S and T version of the Eldar Wraithlord... big bad and nasty but like the WL still not great? Is it worth taking 1 Talos for an entire HS slot?

Cronos: Parasite Engine - Is there any reason to take this over the Talos?

Razorwing - 2 dark lances... some missiles.. meh?

Voidraven - Is it just me or is this a shockingly poor Anti-Tank choice despite it being called a bomber. The implosion missile doesn't even hurt vehicles. Only 1 lance weapon?

Basically it seems the ravager is the clear-cut choice in Heavy Support. Under what circumstances would you take any of the other choices and why? I'd appreciate your thoughts! What are the pros and cons of each unit?

If you're running a dedicated webway list, a pair of talos and a cronos can fit in perfectly well. A Voidraven can substitute for a single Ravager in larger points cost games, and the triple Razorwing spam is the Dark Eldar equivalent of IG leafblower.

The Talos is not a bad choice (or three) if you're running a WWP list that can get them into the fray without being shot up as they cross the board. Being an S7 MC, each hit has about a 55% chance of affecting AV 14, and over a 90% chance of affecting the more common rear AV 10. Also, at T7, S3 models cannot hurt it without some other special rule. It can get Pain Tokens, which leaves it as a T7 model with a 3+ w/FNP.

The Cronos has the ability to grant up to three Pain Tokens to up to three different nearby DE units (including itself) each one of your turns, and can give one out during your opponent's turn. Also, while it's ranged weapons are relatively low S, they are also all AP3. While it is only S5, it's still an MC and still has T7. I could see one of these working with two Taloi in a dedicated WWP list that used a couple of sacrificial WWP deploying squads to get the CC stuff close. The extra Pain Tokens generated by the Cronos could help a lot in getting FC and Fearless to units like Hellions and Warpbeasts coming from the portal; if you went totally assault in a WWP list, you want that S5 on the charge to gnaw through the rear AV10 of most vehicles.

The Razorwing Jetfighter is pretty much the only dedicated, long range, anti-horde ability in the DE codex. While you lose the dedicated anti-tank capability of the third Dark Lance, no configuration of a Ravager has the ability of a Razorwing to neutralize large squads of infantry. I've seen a salvo of Shatterfield Missiles inflict 30+ wounds on a unit of Lootas in cover. Needless to say, those Lootas did not contribute further to the game.

Lastly, you're mistaken about the Lance weapons of the Voidraven. The VRB comes with two Void Lances (S9 dark lances) and also has the Void Mine (S9 lance blast) that can be dropped on an opponent's unit even if the VRB moves flat out up to 36" in the movement phase (see the recent DE FAQ). In addition, it can also take all the same missiles that the Razorwing can take, albeit by making the model close to 200 points in cost.

Honestly, I believe that the utility of the different choices is up to the person crafting the list. I have personally had really good luck with the Razorwings when I have played against Tyranids. I have ready several battlereports on other forums by a player who swears by the VRB. I've also had some small utility out of a Cronos; it has never been a waste when I have taken it. In the new codex, the only HS option I have not yet tried, ironically, is the Talos, and I own three of those models....

The Razorwing has an anti-horde bite that nothing else in the codex can match and it doesn't lose out on much anti-tank power either. I'd run one with two ravagers, if there were a model out.

Voidravens... Just seem too expensive for what they give. Two S9 lances, and a one shot small blast that can only be placed under where the voidraven has moved, meaning your fancy, absurdly expensive bomber has to get right up next to the enemy, and then that also scatters, but apparently doesn't subtract the BS 4 from the distance it scatters, so it ends up less accurate than a normal scatter (since 2d6 creates a bell curve that gets skewed downwards by the subtraction of BS, while 1d6 has an even spread...). And then it has to buy all the missiles that are the appeal of the two flyers in the first place, but all at twice the cost of upgrading the Razorwing's missiles, with the option of taking the ridiculously priced implosion missiles, which lost their only conceivable (if highly unreliable) use with the wallbanger ruling that "models hit pass a wounds test or get IDed" means "allocate wounds as normal". It also lacks the other bit of anti-infantry bite the Razorwing can take: the ten point splinter cannon. If one decided to forsake its tank-hunting role, adding disintegrators leaves it with 12 great anti-infantry shots, half of which are AP2.

I don't like the look of the Talos, because it just seems highly out of place in the otherwise fast codex, just like the other Haemonculi coven pieces. Beyond that, despite being a monstrous creature it seems really out of place in melee, having, at best, 3-8 melee attacks on the charge, for 125 points. Admittedly it has a decent chance to wound with them, but it seems really weak compared to, say, a Razorwing missile salvo, except against vehicles. It's also not very good at range, either having two S5 AP5 blasts, or one twinlinked haywire blaster, at BS3.

The Cronos is interesting, despite having even more lackluster weaponry than the Talos, because it's a support unit that buffs up other units with Pain Tokens. It's still slow, and competing for HS slots with an excellent tank-hunter, and an anti-horde gunship that's also a decent tank-hunter.

Either the Talos or the Cronos might work with a WWP list, as they'll have a much shorter distance to cover, but they'll still be huge fire magnets, and at a range where the stronger anti-infantry weapons can reach them. I suppose when a Cronos model comes out I may try one, but getting a Razorwing certainly comes first in my mind.

Talos + TL haywire Blaster. You can pop vehicles or atleast stun them and this guy rips apart some of the more elite infantry out their such as plague marines. I would prefer him over the others and always include atleast one in each list.

Talos and Chronos work well in WWP based lists and could perhaps find a home in some form of Dark Footdar based list, but otherwise don't really fit in nicely with the highly mobile units DE have.

The Razorwing and the Void Raven are both very solid choices, the Ravager is just easier to fit in to most lists as its cheaper. Both have access to missiles, which despite being 1 shot are very very powerful and one of the only 48" range weapons in the codex, which mean you can actually get some good use out of Night Shields.
The Razorwing is great even without any upgrades, you move up (or on to the board if you reserve) and drop 4 missiles on any infantry unit on the board. Most of the time is going to kill or very badly cripple it no matter how tough they are, you just cause too many wounds for them to deal with. After that you can either go back to being a slightly sub par Ravager (slightly harder to kill, -1 DL) or if you use the alternative weapons loadout, keep chasing after infantry with 2 Disintegrators and a Splinter Cannon.

The Void Raven is roughly on par with a Ravager in an anti tank role, 2 S9 Lances do roughly as much damage as 3 S8 Lances (and obviously the S9 means you can hurt things like Monoliths for a change) which means you are paying the extra points for a slight increase in surviability, the Void Mine (which is situationally useful) and a 36" flat out (good for last turn objective grabs if you stick around that long).

Mostly it comes into its own as a missile platform. While the Razorwing starts with missiles and both fliers start out at the same price, they both have to pay a premium to upgrade the missiles. This actually means that if you are going to use the upgraded missiles the Void Raven is only slightly more expensive than the Razorwing and imo well worth it. The Void Raven clearly can only do the anti tank role after its fired the missiles, but most of the time DE lists are after anti tank any way they can get it anyway (as they are already overloaded with poisoned weapons for infantry). Basically if you are happy with the basic missiles or are mostly just after an anti infantry platform I would stick to the Razorwing, otherwise find the 10-20pts you need to upgrade to a Void Raven.

Still would people agree pound for pound nothing really beats the Ravager in today's meta-game in the HS slot.

The Razorwing is great. Its added range means that it can sit far outside the range of most things and possibly take advantage of a night shield. The 4 missiles are great anti horde. Once those are spent its still 2/3 of a ravager and is more survivable(faster and not open topped) the lack of model does bite though.

The void raven blows, dont bother, its too expensive. s9 lances sound great, but they dont do any better than 3str 8 lances most of the time. The void mine can be fun in a friendly game but its not worth it. In most cases its just a plasma cannon blast.

Talos and Cronos are good not for a take all comers list (unless you are coming out of a wwp) but for certain foes they are great.

If by that you mean, "it's better overall than any other currently available HS models," then yes. Otherwise I'd have to say that the Razorwing fulfills a different, but every bit as useful role, while still being able to fill the same role as a ravager almost as good, and just suffers from not having a model out yet. I don't think it could replace ravagers, but it works well alongside a couple of them, to deal with some things that DE otherwise have trouble with, like hordes and lootas.

DorianGray wrote:Still would people agree pound for pound nothing really beats the Ravager in today's meta-game in the HS slot.

The short answer is probably yes. The slightly longer answer is yes but it depends on the rest of your list. Like every other slot in the Dark Eldar codex their Heavy Support options are very flexible, if you are light on anti infantry (taking a Darklight spam list or very few/no Venoms) then the fliers are very viable options but if you are light on anti tank (which is probably more common with DE) then the Ravagers are fine. Obviously it also means that the codex can scale very well up to 2500pts as well, as 3 Void Ravens fully kitted out would be very nasty if you have the points (and its not hard to fill the rest of the FOC).

I think the Voidraven is great. yeah, it costs a lot, but the Lances are nasty, the increased armor is worth it, and the void mine is actually pretty good (I don't use it on slim vehicles because of the scatter, it is better as another squad killer or on a big vehicle like a LR or Battlewagon).

I prefer it over the Razorwing simply because I'd rather have two S9 Lances than 2 S8. But also, the AV11 is a big upgrade over the Razorwing, which can get shot down by bolter fire. Finally, I see no reason to state taking the SC upgrade as a positive. After firing the missiles, why would you waste the two DL shots for 6 poison. I'd rather just fit in a Venom.

The Talos and Cronos have little to no role in a non-WWP army, while the other options have uses in either. I think Cronos is the weakest as more than one is just redundant (in a strictly negative way).

I don't really like the Haywire Blaster in general, but on the Talos is better than on Scourges.

MY problem is if you DON'T take the 3 Ravagers how do you make up the Anti-Tank?

Trueborns with blasters?

There isn't a dedicated Anti-Tank unit other than the Ravager for the AT.

I want to try out 2 Talos + Cronos but I need to make up for the lack in AT to do it.

Razorwing is a thing of beauty. The missiles take out a full infantry squad turn one and then the rest of the game you tank hunt. I take two in my competitive list.

DorianGray wrote:MY problem is if you DON'T take the 3 Ravagers how do you make up the Anti-Tank?

Trueborns with blasters?

There isn't a dedicated Anti-Tank unit other than the Ravager for the AT.

I want to try out 2 Talos + Cronos but I need to make up for the lack in AT to do it.

Well if you are running a WWP list you could go 3 teams of 5 scourges with 2 blasters (deepstriking or running out from the portal) and 3 teams of 3 trueborn with blasters. Now you have spent 744 on 18 blaster shots. I could se chrono parasite engines and wyches in that list as well. (Chrono targeting downed transports!)

Yeah but ideally you want some Incubi to take out MEQs once the transports are dead too right?

Spending all my elite slots on Scourages? Was it discussed that Scourages aren't the best for Anti-Tank anyway? On the Warseer Dark Eldar Strategy guide?

Scourges are FA, not elite, and I believe he's just providing an example of blaster spam.

One question, why has the master of DE, that cat with the watermelon helmet not replied in this thread?

Is Ravagers the clear-cut choice in almost 99% of cases?

DorianGray wrote:Is Ravagers the clear-cut choice in almost 99% of cases?

Yes, because it's the most cost effective thing in the codex for anti tank.

I still say the Razorwing has a place beside them, though. An obscene anti-horde alpha strike followed by anti-tank that's almost as good as a Ravager, or even better anti-infantry if you buy the splinter cannon and switch it to disintegrators. You get some more dark lances from your raiders, and yet more anti-tank from haywire grenades (which are the most cost-effective anti-tank in the codex, at 12 points a shot in ten shot units, only problem is getting close enough in the first place). If only Hellions could take haywires...

the watermellon cat is dashofpepper. Although he is very good it is usualy a good idea to get a second opinion.

I do think that these days peppers strugle vs the IG leafblower list is keeping him from being objective when talking about DE. Dash wants to beak leafblower at all cost.

Niiai wrote:the watermellon cat is dashofpepper. Although he is very good it is usualy a good idea to get a second opinion.

I do think that these days peppers strugle vs the IG leafblower list is keeping him from being objective when talking about DE. Dash wants to beak leafblower at all cost.

I'm 3 wins, 1 loss against Mechanized IG (tournament games) with my new Dark Eldar. My loss was when the Mech IG opponent stole the initiative from me after I deployed to go first in a pitched battle, kill points game.

In one of my other games, my opponent and I shot each other so badly that by turn 5 with him going first, neither of us had lost any vehicles. He had 2 vendettas, 3 hydras, a manticore, 6-8 chimeras....I won out of sheer dumb luck, gaining killpoints on turn 5 before the game ended.

The other two games, my opponents made deployment choices that helped cost them the game, even though one of them went first and I had to reserve / alpha strike.
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To the OP (since you messaged me): I feel like asking what to take (besides) a ravager in a heavy support slot is asking to play with a handicap. Point for point, nothing else compares with it.

My issue with Mech IG is that while they aren't unbeatable, they are *extremely* difficult to play against as Dark Eldar, and I haven't had to face any of the Monster Mech IG players in a GT yet this year. There's no way to put this without sounding overconfident, but I feel like my Dark Eldar can almost laugh every other army (regardless of the player playing them) off the table, with the exception Mech IG and a few builds and circumstances (razorspam BA being foremost) - my old DE had issues with Space Wolves, but there's a link in my bio expressing my feelings about them now.

And finally, while I appreciate your vote of confidence that I'm the "God of Dark Eldar" that title is solely reserved for Thor665 here on Dakka. I haven't seen him posting much lately, but he is the digital incarnation of Dark Eldar strategeryness.

@Dash,
"...while I appreciate your vote of confidence that I'm the "God of Dark Eldar" that title is solely reserved for Thor665 here on Dakka."

I guess that makes you "Jesus" then? :-)

Someday, I hope to make it an Unholy Trinity.

-Phanatik
Kabal of Lost Souls