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jullevi wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
One argument people keep saying is that GW killed WFB because it was not doing well... but who are we to say, if GW released the same level / quantity of minis that they release today for AoS but for WFB instead, that it would be even more popular than AoS?



WHFB could have done a lot better with current release schedule and quality of models but I doubt that it would have done better than AoS is currently doing. The game itself didn't appeal to everyone and amount of releases wouldn't have made any difference to them. Where it could have done better is among the players who already had WHFB armies.(snip)

One of the reasons AoS is doing fine in sales is because 100+ dollar centerpiece models sell like hotcakes and have an insane profit margin. 2015 audience was not ready for such models and they would have looked somewhat out of place in the WHFB setting too.

I hope that Old World does well and we can enjoy from new miniatures for years to come. (snip)


Im not sure I can say WFB would not do better than AoS because WFB always tapped into a old breed of historical gamers that AoS just doesn't. I mean assuming they would not go the 4 page rule on hypothetical WFB new editions...
I think the more GW support something the better it sells (I know sounds like really basic) you can see Spacemarines VS xenos.

There was nothing stopping AoS to live alongside like Kill team and other 40k twists do if they wanted to gain the "modern gamers"...

As for centrepieces, they have always been there on WFB that was actually part of the fun fantasy factor of the game, some editions were even called hero hammer. The big kits were always being released in WFB and they continued that trend on a skirmish game (which makes less sense to have one ).

I hope the old world does well and people enjoy it too. I just dont and will not trust GW with a longtime project or commitment. Doing a Big armies game is very different than doing some skirmish box sets that you can drop and pick... Its a marathon and that takes stability which GW has proven doesn't care about.

   
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 kodos wrote:
and were is the difference between R&F and Skirmish?
the unit size needed and the amount of models in the box has nothing to do with that

If we look at the skirmish size games GW has made (Necromunda, Shadow War, Warcry) those games are very much a case of "buy one box and that's you sorted for whatever faction you're playing unless you specifically play larger games". AoS is not a skirmish game and it isn't marketed as one.

this is a problem that the box size does not meet the requirements in game, hence what GW has done by keeping the 16 model boxes of 6th and changed to requirement to 20 models per unit in 7th

easy, make the minimum units size for the game that work equal the amount of models per box and you 1 HQ + 2 Troops will work, no matter if those models are ranked up or in lose formation

HH was announced to move from FW to the 40k Studio and get new rules, were AoS now sees its first real Edition change, depending on how GW handle that, they will build or destroy the goodwill of the community (and if they destroy it, TOW has less chance to succeed)

30k isn't part of the 40k team. It is rumoured to be getting moved to GW instead of FW with a bigger team than previously, nothing is confirmed.
Have you actually played AoS? AoS 1 and AoS 2.0 might have had the same simple rules but they did not play the exact same way. Implying AoS 3 is the only new edition of the game is like saying 4th and 5th Edition 40k were the same thing. You seem hellbent on this idea that GW will eventually mess up and ruin everything but seeing as AoS has done really well, especially recently, I really don't see what your point is.
Community goodwill is meaningless and changes all the time. The Warhammer community rages at GW then 12 hours later go back to painting their models, playing the games and buying more stuff.

well, my Empire Army was started at the beginning of 5th, updated with 6th and more or less remained that way until now and sees play in Kings of War.

for a lot of people the point to play a GW game instead of anything other, was that the game will be there for years and their army will still be playable in the time to come
hence why it is considered a cheap hobby because once you build it up it will be there forever

Wut. Since when was Warhammer ever described as a "cheap" hobby? Like a solid 25% of all forum posts ever are about how expensive GW is compared to other companies. And just to point out again, it very much seems that you have convinced yourself that WHFB would always be around despite GW having replaced and discarded numerous games over the years. Hell, 40k started of with Space Marine which got axed in favour of Rogue Trader then 40k proper.

but with GW killing it, they also removed the infrastructure for a lot of people to play their game, with the conclusion that even a GW game can be gone and you payed the higher price for nothing

You seem to be contradicting yourself quite a bit. Either WHFB was a waste of money because you bought into it in 1996 and then in 2015 the game was retired due to poor sales and player intake, or it was a cheap investment that you played for years. Which is it?

hence why Skirmish games became much more popular and also smaller companies got their chance, less investment of time and money so no big problem if those are gone and you even can switch the game each year and nothing is lost

These companies got their chance and still lost out to GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
There was nothing stopping AoS to live alongside like Kill team and other 40k twists do if they wanted to gain the "modern gamers"...

I would say there was no chance of AoS and WHFB co-existing especially if WHFB was kept as the main product. 40k spinoff's like Kill Team or Necromunda work because they are all still in the exact same setting as regular 40k. AoS is a continuation of the timeline started in WHFB, making the Old World setting history compared to the modern setting of AoS. If anything WHFB would have to be treated like Kill Team as TOW is being treated now.

As for centrepieces, they have always been there on WFB that was actually part of the fun fantasy factor of the game, some editions were even called hero hammer. The big kits were always being released in WFB and they continued that trend on a skirmish game (which makes less sense to have one ).

Just because AoS isn't R&F doesn't make it a skirmish game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 12:23:25


 
   
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 Gert wrote:

30k isn't part of the 40k team. It is rumoured to be getting moved to GW instead of FW with a bigger team than previously, nothing is confirmed.
Have you actually played AoS? AoS 1 and AoS 2.0 might have had the same simple rules but they did not play the exact same way. Implying AoS 3 is the only new edition of the game is like saying 4th and 5th Edition 40k were the same thing.

yes, AoS 3 is the first real Edition change the AoS Community is going thru
4th and 5th was no real Edtion change either, 5th and 6th was, (2nd and 3rd as well as 7th and 8th 40k as another example) were real Edition changes for GW

AoS 2 was more or less just the previous community rules written into official books, most new rules there were already used as house rules to get AoS1 going, there was no real shift in the rules and how armies worked
just because it did not played the exact same way does not mean that there was a typical GW Edition change going on

and for now we don't now how big the changes will be until the first battledomes come around

 Gert wrote:
Wut. Since when was Warhammer ever described as a "cheap" hobby?

since you compare it to other adult hobbies and the expensive part and the complains come from the point that a ongoing high investment is needed to play that game because of expensive books and everchanging armies

if you have to pay once 500€ and keep playing with a 30€ book every 4 years it is a cheap hobby compared to going fishing or get a bike

doing what GW is doing now, by having to spend 500€ every 3 years to keep playing is were people start complaining

 Gert wrote:

30k isn't part of the 40k team. It is rumoured to be getting moved to GW instead of FW with a bigger team than previously, nothing is confirmed.

GW is changing their studios now and this is more or less confirmed. "moved to GW" makes no sense as it is already with GW but handled by the SG Studio
and a bigger Team means its going from a one man show to be added to the 40k studio that will now handle those things, same as the AoS studio will do for all the things in the setting
nothing is official of course, but it never was as we had no real information which studio handled what, only which designer was working on things


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Just because AoS isn't R&F doesn't make it a skirmish game.

well it is
call it Mass-Skirmish if you want but Skirmish as in "low model count" is different to Skirmish "individual model mechanics" and R&F in "units in fixed Rank&File formation"

model count is usually referred as Team/Warband, Platoon, Brigade, Division level games

so a Warband level Skirmish game has less models than a Brigade level Skirmish game, but both are still Skirmish games
were a Division level R&F game can have less models than a Brigade level Skirmish game

and at the moment GW is making only Skirmish games, but at different levels

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 13:05:59


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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Spoiler:
[quote=kodos 782431 11181365 89b88b4ea8935521de96e77c9cd4f3b7.jpg
yes, AoS 3 is the first real Edition change the AoS Community is going thru
4th and 5th was no real Edtion change either, 5th and 6th was, (2nd and 3rd as well as 7th and 8th 40k as another example) were real Edition changes for GW

AoS 2 was more or less just the previous community rules written into official books, most new rules there were already used as house rules to get AoS1 going, there was no real shift in the rules and how armies worked
just because it did not played the exact same way does not mean that there was a typical GW Edition change going on

and for now we don't now how big the changes will be until the first battledomes come around

I mean GW put out like 50 articles explaining how AoS 3 is going to work so there's a pretty good idea of how things are going.

Spoiler:
since you compare it to other adult hobbies and the expensive part and the complains come from the point that a ongoing high investment is needed to play that game because of expensive books and everchanging armies

if you have to pay once 500€ and keep playing with a 30€ book every 4 years it is a cheap hobby compared to going fishing or get a bike

doing what GW is doing now, by having to spend 500€ every 3 years to keep playing is were people start complaining

I didn't compare it to any other hobbies but I can if you like.
The Xbox Series S costs £250 and you can purchase a subscription to Game Pass for £11/month including Xbox Live Gold and EA Play subscriptions. Alternatively, a good range PC will probably cost about £750 (at least mine was and it's pretty good) and again you can purchase Game Pass or use stores like Steam and Epic. Consoles and PCs have sales on games or even just free games all over the place so depending on your choices you could just never pay for a game ever. Video Games also have the bonus of not requiring anyone but yourself to enjoy them so there aren't particular time restraints on their use, unlike TTWG which needs at least one other person (I am aware single player is an option but honestly why bother).
Alternatively, a 2k point Warhammer army is going to be considerably more expensive for most of the armies in both AoS and 40k.

Spoiler:
GW is changing their studios now and this is more or less confirmed. "moved to GW" makes no sense as it is already with GW but handled by the SG Studio
and a bigger Team means its going from a one man show to be added to the 40k studio that will now handle those things, same as the AoS studio will do for all the things in the setting
nothing is official of course, but it never was as we had no real information which studio handled what, only which designer was working on things

30k was never part of the Specialist Studio, it was its own team with FW. It was Alan Bligh until he passed away then it was two new guys, one of whom left the company last year. As far as anyone knows the 30k is back down to a single person. Will the 30k team be moved from FW to GW oversight and expanded to a proper team? Probably considering GW counts it as a "main game" but until the next 30k release we don't know.
As for "more or less confirmed", nothing is confirmed at all. Staff management happens all the time and putting departments in the same office that really should have been together in the first place is just practical.
The AoS team handles AoS, the 40k team handles 40k, the 30k team (single person) handles 30k, the Specialist Studio handles LotR, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and other games like that.


Spoiler:
well it is
call it Mass-Skirmish if you want but Skirmish as in "low model count" is different to Skirmish "individual model mechanics" and R&F in "units in fixed Rank&File formation"

model count is usually referred as Team/Warband, Platoon, Brigade, Division level games

so a Warband level Skirmish game has less models than a Brigade level Skirmish game, but both are still Skirmish games
were a Division level R&F game can have less models than a Brigade level Skirmish game

and at the moment GW is making only Skirmish games, but at different levels

A skirmish TTWG is defined by a small number of units, often focussing on individual character models. A military skirmish is a small-scale battle usually conducted by outlying or scouting units.
So a 500pt game of AoS where both sides have roughly 3-5 units each would be a skirmish size game by the military definition as would a 500pt WHFB game.
A game of Necromunda with 2 players with roughly 10 models each would be a skirmish game by the TTWG definition.
You cannot reasonably call a 10k point game of AoS a skirmish game just because it isn't R&F.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 13:40:05


 
   
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 Gert wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
There was nothing stopping AoS to live alongside like Kill team and other 40k twists do if they wanted to gain the "modern gamers"...

I would say there was no chance of AoS and WHFB co-existing especially if WHFB was kept as the main product. 40k spinoff's like Kill Team or Necromunda work because they are all still in the exact same setting as regular 40k. AoS is a continuation of the timeline started in WHFB, making the Old World setting history compared to the modern setting of AoS. If anything WHFB would have to be treated like Kill Team as TOW is being treated now.



Dont understand your counter point, sorry. To clarify are you saying that AoS could not coexist with WFB but that TOW can coexist with AoS?

Furthermore if its a fluff issue you do know that blowing a setting and spread it by reality bubbles is not a natural evolution of any sort but rather a sorry excuse to back the AoS creation. Which was to be simplistic game with little to no rules, small level skirmish etc etc.
Surelly its easier to have a skirmish game even on a different timeline as an extra than to have a massive R&F army game on the side

   
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 NAVARRO wrote:

Dont understand your counter point, sorry. To clarify are you saying that AoS could not coexist with WFB but that TOW can coexist with AoS?

AoS was not a game designed to play like Kill Team or Necromunda, the skirmish games of the 40k setting. AoS was designed with the ability to be played at small-scale games with few units, to massive battles. AoS and WHFB are games of the exact same scale. AoS not being R&F like WHFB doesn't make it a Skirmish game, it just makes it not R&F.
A skirmish TTWG is defined by a small number of units, often focussing on individual character models. A military skirmish is a small-scale battle usually conducted by outlying or scouting units.
So a 500pt game of AoS where both sides have roughly 3-5 units each would be a skirmish size game by the military definition, as would a 500pt WHFB game.
A game of Necromunda with 2 players with roughly 10 models each would be a skirmish game by the TTWG definition.
You cannot reasonably call a 10k point game of AoS a skirmish game just because it isn't R&F.
The biggest problem in your analogy is that to keep WHFB as a "main game" AoS would need to be completely different to what it actually is. TOW is not being sold as a "main system" unlike AoS.

Furthermore if its a fluff issue you do know that blowing a setting and spread it by reality bubbles is not a natural evolution of any sort but rather a sorry excuse to back the AoS creation. Which was to be simplistic game with little to no rules, small level skirmish etc etc.

That's literally how DC changed its timeline with Flashpoint and Rebirth, Star Trek did it with the Kelvin Timeline, and I'm sure Marvel has done it as well. 40k suffers because whenever the story is advanced, nothing actually changes, the Imperium is still there and Chaos hasn't won. The End Times gave Chaos a proper victory and also allowed GW to create a whole new setting that was not limited by the scope of a single world.
Again, AoS is not a Skirmish game, it's just not R&F.
   
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 Gert wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

Dont understand your counter point, sorry. To clarify are you saying that AoS could not coexist with WFB but that TOW can coexist with AoS?


The biggest problem in your analogy is that to keep WHFB as a "main game" AoS would need to be completely different to what it actually is. TOW is not being sold as a "main system" unlike AoS.



So your saying both games are the same so they cannot coexist? if thats it then makes even less sense to nuke WFB.

AoS started as a simple skirmish pick up game as opposed to mass battle complex game ( that was the whole argument), and could have been just that a NON main game, a starting point etc... but to accept that its fine to kill a several decade game 5 years ago to replace with a simplistic new Main game to later on relegate WFB to a side game as ok and in the process finding incompatible do the other way around doesn't stick.

I mean WFB fluff could have evolved and armies and new monsters been added to it like AoS now. Like I said with the right support and amends WFB could have evolved to something even better and AoS could have been the bait to new people.




   
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 NAVARRO wrote:

So your saying both games are the same so they cannot coexist? if thats it then makes even less sense to nuke WFB.

The setting of AoS is the same timeline as WHFB where the Old World was destroyed during the End Times. How could WHFB continue with new content and releases when the world it was on was destroyed?

AoS started as a simple skirmish pick up game as opposed to mass battle complex game ( that was the whole argument), and could have been just that a NON main game, a starting point etc... but to accept that its fine to kill a several decade game 5 years ago to replace with a simplistic new Main game to later on relegate WFB to a side game as ok and in the process finding incompatible do the other way around doesn't stick.

Show me anywhere in the marketing for AoS that it was sold as a skirmish game intended to be played at a small scale. Were the rules simple? Yes but that doesn't make it a skirmish game.
The biggest thing people seem to very much miss about all of this is that WHFB wouldn't have been axed if it was a well-perfoming product. Having loads of models on the table didn't make WHFB a superior game to AoS, it meant the buy-in price was stupidly high for a beginner hobbyist. Sure, Warriors of Chaos or High Elves might have small model counts but what about Skaven or the Empire? £17.50 for 10 human-scale models when 40 were needed to form a useful unit isn't good. The game was not conducive to new starts and therefore didn't make money. Who supports a system that doesn't make a good profit?

I mean WFB fluff could have evolved and armies and new monsters been added to it like AoS now. Like I said with the right support and amends WFB could have evolved to something even better and AoS could have been the bait to new people.

How could WHFB have been expanded when it was restricted to a single world that by 8th Edition was explored almost to its limits. Where would the Idoneth fit in? Or Kharadron? The Old World might have been great for 30 years but there comes a point where nothing else can be added.

As for TOW, it's specifically not WHFB. It's taking a very specific point in history (like 30k does) and is building a new game around it. You can use your old WHFB armies but it isn't WHFB, it's different. How different? Nobody knows for sure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 14:43:52


 
   
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Skimming over the last ten pages or so, I haven't seen any mention of Oathmark in relation to R&F games or noobs. Guess it's not making as much of an impact despite star power of its author from previous skirmish games or the value of model boxes to make different types of infantry.
   
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There again is that statement that WHFB had a huge buy in because you had to have a ton of models.

You had the same number of models in WHFB as you do today in AOS.

My model counts for all my armies at 2000 pts were roughly the same as they were for my AOS armies. I had to buy between 60-80 models and paint them for a full 2000 point army on average for both my whfb armies and my aos armies.

What killed WHFB was the little to no attention the game got from 2010-2015.

We had 30+ players playing whfb every campaign season. Our tournaments for AOS today dont ever crack 18.

The playerbase was fine largely with either.

WHFB had a huge 2nd hand market as well as an IP that could be duplicated fairly easily and models obtained much cheaper.

Almost none of our whfb players bought anything retail. They still played a ton, but GW never saw a dime.

GW never saw a dime

That was the problem with WHFB. Not no one playing it. It was that it was way too easy to get models elsewhere for cheaper, the 2nd hand market was stuffed full of inventory at 1/3 or less of retail price, and the game never got any real attention from GW hardly at all.

AOS and WHFB can coexist side by side. Because they largely cater to two entirely different sets of people who want two entirely different things out of their game (and yes there will be people that play both)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ancient Otter wrote:
Skimming over the last ten pages or so, I haven't seen any mention of Oathmark in relation to R&F games or noobs. Guess it's not making as much of an impact despite star power of its author from previous skirmish games or the value of model boxes to make different types of infantry.


Oathmark is a for fun campaign style game. You won't see much about games like that in the general public. THere are no tournaments or public leagues or anything with Oathmark. Its for the casual narrative for fun crew playing in their house.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:07:56


 
   
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@ Gert Sorry but the destruction of the old world into bubbles was only necessary to try to justify the birth of AoS and delete WFB. Like I said the fluff is not created for no other reason than to support their business plan... not the other way around.
No need to erase a main game.
I find it funny that you seem to think that new races and monsters could never been possible in WFB but are plausible now... I mean really? Are we so blind to think that fantasy is not possible on WFANTASYB just because GW said no? If you were doing historical yeah sure, cannot create elves with cow gods...

Bottom-line is simple to me all could have been amended with some thought into it rather than rage quitting the core game & dumping everyone. But that is my opinion which means nothing.

Why support a game that is underperforming? I could say why support anything else besides space marines then? Maybe thats why.

Today AoS has seen some unprecedented level of support that even 40k fans get grumpy about Imagine doing that for WFB. I dont think it would be underperforming and my original question was more in that sense.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 auticus wrote:

What killed WHFB was the little to no attention the game got from 2010-2015.





THIS! Yep! Thats what I was getting at.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:14:45


   
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 auticus wrote:
There again is that statement that WHFB had a huge buy in because you had to have a ton of models.

You had the same number of models in WHFB as you do today in AOS.

That's not what buy-in cost is. It doesn't matter if a 2k point army uses the same amount of models on average because nobody starts at 2k points. I can buy into AoS with one box and immediately start playing games. Are they smaller scale? Yes, but if I want to scale up (as most hobbyists do) then it's my choice to do so. Each Start Collecting box for AoS sits at roughly 500pts according to the Warscroll Builder on Warcom and each box contains roughly a Hero, a Battleline, up to 2 other Units, and a Warscroll Battalion that lets you use the contents of the box without needing to buy anything else. The SC boxes are designed from the ground up to be usable at purchase without any need for a Battletome or additional Hero to make them legal. The same cannot be said for WHFB or indeed 40k during 5th/6th Edition.

My model counts for all my armies at 2000 pts were roughly the same as they were for my AOS armies. I had to buy between 60-80 models and paint them for a full 2000 point army on average for both my whfb armies and my aos armies.

If you have to buy 60-80 models just to play WHFB then that's a flawed system that doesn't encourage new players.

What killed WHFB was the little to no attention the game got from 2010-2015.

That's not quite true though is it? Your statement would imply that barely anything was released from 2011 onwards when in fact most of the current models for legacy armies in AoS were released during this period.
https://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?291796-Games-Workshop-Fantasy-Releases-Timeline-(Mk-II) Here's a pretty comprehensive list.

We had 30+ players playing whfb every campaign season. Our tournaments for AOS today dont ever crack 18.

Were those 30+ players the same 30+ players every single time or were there constant influxes of new players?

WHFB had a huge 2nd hand market as well as an IP that could be duplicated fairly easily and models obtained much cheaper.

Almost none of our whfb players bought anything retail. They still played a ton, but GW never saw a dime.

GW never saw a dime

That was the problem with WHFB. Not no one playing it. It was that it was way too easy to get models elsewhere for cheaper, the 2nd hand market was stuffed full of inventory at 1/3 or less of retail price, and the game never got any real attention from GW hardly at all.

So you didn't buy from the company who made the game and models and are now complaining that it was axed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:34:59


 
   
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If you have to buy 60-80 models just to play WHFB then that's a flawed system that doesn't encourage new players.

It is exactly as easy, in most communities, to play AoS with just a Start Collecting box as it was to play WHFB 8th with just a battalion box.

edit: Except you'd either have to convert a model to represent a hero/lord or buy one, which were usually about 15-20$ at the time iirc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:39:39


 
   
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 Gert wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

So your saying both games are the same so they cannot coexist? if thats it then makes even less sense to nuke WFB.

The setting of AoS is the same timeline as WHFB where the Old World was destroyed during the End Times. How could WHFB continue with new content and releases when the world it was on was destroyed?

AoS started as a simple skirmish pick up game as opposed to mass battle complex game ( that was the whole argument), and could have been just that a NON main game, a starting point etc... but to accept that its fine to kill a several decade game 5 years ago to replace with a simplistic new Main game to later on relegate WFB to a side game as ok and in the process finding incompatible do the other way around doesn't stick.

Show me anywhere in the marketing for AoS that it was sold as a skirmish game intended to be played at a small scale. Were the rules simple? Yes but that doesn't make it a skirmish game.
The biggest thing people seem to very much miss about all of this is that WHFB wouldn't have been axed if it was a well-perfoming product. Having loads of models on the table didn't make WHFB a superior game to AoS, it meant the buy-in price was stupidly high for a beginner hobbyist. Sure, Warriors of Chaos or High Elves might have small model counts but what about Skaven or the Empire? £17.50 for 10 human-scale models when 40 were needed to form a useful unit isn't good. The game was not conducive to new starts and therefore didn't make money. Who supports a system that doesn't make a good profit?

I mean WFB fluff could have evolved and armies and new monsters been added to it like AoS now. Like I said with the right support and amends WFB could have evolved to something even better and AoS could have been the bait to new people.

How could WHFB have been expanded when it was restricted to a single world that by 8th Edition was explored almost to its limits. Where would the Idoneth fit in? Or Kharadron? The Old World might have been great for 30 years but there comes a point where nothing else can be added.

As for TOW, it's specifically not WHFB. It's taking a very specific point in history (like 30k does) and is building a new game around it. You can use your old WHFB armies but it isn't WHFB, it's different. How different? Nobody knows for sure.


Old World already has three elf factions. This means no fish elves. Besides elves sitting on sharks FLYING THROUGH THE AIR is borderline stupid. Reminds me of the High Elf sky chariot.

Steampunk would have fit the Chaos Dwarfs but no one liked them in Nottingham so they never got a proper army book but just a WD army list. Lol!
   
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 Strg Alt wrote:

My Khemri army has been squatted and replaced with a silly Undead Construct faction which exists only by the power of IP protection. When TOW will rear it's ugly head some factions will again be treated like this.


I wish people would stop saying this, because it is just utter nonsense. That's not how IP protection works, nothing about the new style or designs was done to "protect" them any more so than the previous stuff. The only more protectable thing is the trademarked name..

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:43:31


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 NAVARRO wrote:
@ Gert Sorry but the destruction of the old world into bubbles was only necessary to try to justify the birth of AoS and delete WFB. Like I said the fluff is not created for no other reason than to support their business plan... not the other way around.
No need to erase a main game.

If the main game is underperforming despite fairly consistent model/rules releases then yes that game needs to be axed.

I find it funny that you seem to think that new races and monsters could never been possible in WFB but are plausible now... I mean really? Are we so blind to think that fantasy is not possible on WFANTASYB just because GW said no? If you were doing historical yeah sure, cannot create elves with cow gods...

Never possible? No, because "never" is rarely something that applies to reality. Extremely unlikely given the restrictions on the setting? Yes. It's not a bad thing that WHFB was restricted to a single place but there is a limit to what you can put in that place when it is clearly defined. AoS is left intentionally vague and nothing is particularly set in stone.

Bottom-line is simple to me all could have been amended with some thought into it rather than rage quitting the core game & dumping everyone.

Nobody was dumped, all of your WHFB armies were valid for some time in AoS.

Why support a game that is underperforming? I could say why support anything else besides space marines then? Maybe thats why.

Because the Space Marines need something to fight you muppet. What a stupid point to make.

Today AoS has seen some unprecedented level of support that even 40k fans get grumpy about Imagine doing that for WFB. I dont think it would be underperforming and my original question was more in that sense.

WHFB got plenty of releases before it was axed. If the game isn't bringing in new players because of it's design choices, FAQ's and Army Books aren't going to fix that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu wrote:

It is exactly as easy, in most communities, to play AoS with just a Start Collecting box as it was to play WHFB 8th with just a battalion box.

edit: Except you'd either have to convert a model to represent a hero/lord or buy one, which were usually about 15-20$ at the time iirc.

The Battalion boxes didn't include ready-baked rules though, did they? You'd still need to also get the Army Book. AoS doesn't require that, it's better if you do but it's not required.
And if you have to point out that the box didn't come with a Hero to make the army legal, then that just proves my point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 15:46:18


 
   
Made in us
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 Gert wrote:
 auticus wrote:
There again is that statement that WHFB had a huge buy in because you had to have a ton of models.

You had the same number of models in WHFB as you do today in AOS.

That's not what buy-in cost is. It doesn't matter if a 2k point army uses the same amount of models on average because nobody starts at 2k points. I can buy into AoS with one box and immediately start playing games. Are they smaller scale? Yes, but if I want to scale up (as most hobbyists do) then it's my choice to do so. Each Start Collecting box for AoS sits at roughly 500pts according to the Warscroll Builder on Warcom and each box contains roughly a Hero, a Battleline, up to 2 other Units, and a Warscroll Battalion that lets you use the contents of the box without needing to buy anything else. The SC boxes are designed from the ground up to be usable at purchase without any need for a Battletome or additional Hero to make them legal. The same cannot be said for WHFB or indeed 40k during 5th/6th Edition.


That was an 8th Ed problem tbh, which encouraged a few massive units rather than a lot of smaller ones.

In 6th and even 7th Ed you could get decent games in at 1000-1500 pts and even 500pts was ok for starter games - GW initially promoted this as well with an additional set of rules for 500pts games which restricted some of the more unbalanced options and gave the elite armies a bit more flexibility on things like characters and unit numbers to allow them to fit.

They also had battalion boxes for £50 which were usually pretty good for a starter force, other than usually having to add a metal character (very few armies had plastic characters, only Empire and Orcs in 6th IIRC, though more started getting them in 7th).
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Ancient Otter wrote:
Skimming over the last ten pages or so, I haven't seen any mention of Oathmark in relation to R&F games or noobs. Guess it's not making as much of an impact despite star power of its author from previous skirmish games or the value of model boxes to make different types of infantry.


I've bought Oathmark, and am hoping to be able to get to play it at some point - but then The Plague came. So I've not had an opportunity.
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







@Gert why resort to muppet or stupid kind of remarks? See I lost interest in debating since you are showing some unhealthy stress levels. Relax. Your points become meaningless when you display this level of immaturity.




   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 NAVARRO wrote:
@Gert why resort to muppet or stupid kind of remarks? See I lost interest in debating since you are showing some unhealthy stress levels. Relax. Your points become meaningless when you display this level of immaturity.

Chief, you made a blatantly stupid and aggravating remark, and then when I called you out on, I'm the bad guy?
To analyse your remark in more context, 40k factions like Orks or Tyranids don't underperform, Space Marines just occupy 50% of the product line so it's literally impossible for any other army to perform better than Space Marines. It's like shooting someone in the leg then asking them why they can't run faster.
When WHFB got axed, GW had 40k, WHFB, and a revamped Hobbit/LotR license. I think it's fair to say that 40k was beating WHFB and had been for some time in the sales department but WHFB would still have to meet certain sales targets overall. End Times wasn't some last-second decision, it will have been made when it became clear WHFB was not performing well enough to warrant any new Editions, possibly back in 2011 when a lot of the range had planned model updates.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 16:01:42


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:

So your saying both games are the same so they cannot coexist? if thats it then makes even less sense to nuke WFB.


I mean WFB fluff could have evolved and armies and new monsters been added to it like AoS now. Like I said with the right support and amends WFB could have evolved to something even better and AoS could have been the bait to new people.

How could WHFB have been expanded when it was restricted to a single world that by 8th Edition was explored almost to its limits. Where would the Idoneth fit in? Or Kharadron? The Old World might have been great for 30 years but there comes a point where nothing else can be added.

.


Why are you making it out that every single aspect of the WHFB World had been seen or shown and that it was impossible for them to come up with a way to add anything new? That sounds like a very, very limiting view of the setting, because there are all sorts of ways new things could have been added. There's even 2 very recent examples that go against you saying it was full to the point of no more expansion, with Total War Warhammer 3 getting a new fully defined unseen faction of Cathay (pretty much a completely new addition as Cathay only had brief mentions before) and entirely new Kislev units have been added both there and for TOW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 16:01:08


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Why are you making it out that every single aspect of the WHFB World had been seen or shown and that it was impossible for them to come up with a way to add anything new? That sounds like a very, very limiting view of the setting, because there are all sorts of ways new things could have been added. There's even 2 very recent examples that go against you saying it was full to the point of no more expansion, with Total War Warhammer 3 getting a new fully defined unseen faction of Cathay (pretty much a completely new addition as Cathay only had brief mentions before) and entirely new Kislev units have been added both there and for TOW.

Cathay and Kislev are both human factions though, aren't they? The only factions that weren't "explored" in WHFB as far as I can tell were Kislev, Cathay, Ind, and possibly the Jade Kingdoms if they're still around. All of these factions are humans. Not very fantasy is it?
Compare that to AoS where we've seen things like the Idoneth, Stormcast, or Ossiarch, as well as the creation of factions that were just a couple of units in WHFB like Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, or Gloomspite. Where would these factions have come from?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 16:08:46


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






 Gert wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Why are you making it out that every single aspect of the WHFB World had been seen or shown and that it was impossible for them to come up with a way to add anything new? That sounds like a very, very limiting view of the setting, because there are all sorts of ways new things could have been added. There's even 2 very recent examples that go against you saying it was full to the point of no more expansion, with Total War Warhammer 3 getting a new fully defined unseen faction of Cathay (pretty much a completely new addition as Cathay only had brief mentions before) and entirely new Kislev units have been added both there and for TOW.

Cathay and Kislev are both human factions though, aren't they? The only factions that weren't "explored" in WHFB as far as I can tell were Kislev, Cathay, Ind, and possibly the Jade Kingdoms if they're still around. All of these factions are humans. Not very fantasy is it?
Compare that to AoS where we've seen things like the Idoneth, Stormcast, or Ossiarch, as well as the creation of factions that were just a couple of units in WHFB like Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, or Gloomspite. Where would these factions have come from?


That's a stupid thing to say that a normal human isn't fantasy

Also looking over my 6e 2000pt Bret list, it only clocks in at 118 models, and really skimped out on putting down some magic items. It's only twenty models more than my 1850pt Cities of Sigmar list.

"Don't Feed the Troll"

ETC is the forum equivalent of a short bus. 
   
Made in es
Courageous Silver Helm





With a minimum imagination you can fit almost everything AoS into the Old World with a few tweaks.
Kharadron can easily be Dwarves that got kicked out their halls (whatever goblin/skaven invasion) and through the use of evolved tech build flying ships (Malakai Makaison already had a zeppelin...).
Ossiarch can be sort of elite troops of the Tomb Kings led by Settra (found deep in a piramid with new rituals or whatever random lazy explanation... ancient technology like primaris lol). Or if introducing Nagash again, some new creation with improved necromancy (how? MAGIC, just like they always do).
The center area of Ulthuan was sunken, right? From the old vortex of magic or whatever. Millenia later, out of nowhere, some new underwater elves emerge as they survived the cataclysmic event. How? *magic*. There you go: Idoneth in the Old World. Or if we integrate some event like in the End Times where Ulthuan or part of it sinks, makes it even more obvious.
Stormcast can be automatons created by Gelt and imbued by the power of Sigmar (if I recall, this was the initial version intended, before blowing up the world).

A few examples on how to integrate whatever you want into the Old World. Use the one trick pony of "magic" that gw so much loves and no problem.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Exactly right VBS. Something tells me given the overhaul of AoS and this return to WHFB that this regime would have preferred a post apoc advancement over the previous "throw it away and sell many small boutique lines without a functioning game" approach.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
That's what 7th edition is about. Yelling "Forge the Narrative Pussy!" while kicking your opponent in the dick.
 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






 Eldarain wrote:
Exactly right VBS. Something tells me given the overhaul of AoS and this return to WHFB that this regime would have preferred a post apoc advancement over the previous "throw it away and sell many small boutique lines without a functioning game" approach.

Or Total War: Warhammer has proven popular and GW thinks they can cash in on the TW players.

I'll get to the other posts later when I have a bit more time.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 Gert wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Why are you making it out that every single aspect of the WHFB World had been seen or shown and that it was impossible for them to come up with a way to add anything new? That sounds like a very, very limiting view of the setting, because there are all sorts of ways new things could have been added. There's even 2 very recent examples that go against you saying it was full to the point of no more expansion, with Total War Warhammer 3 getting a new fully defined unseen faction of Cathay (pretty much a completely new addition as Cathay only had brief mentions before) and entirely new Kislev units have been added both there and for TOW.

Cathay and Kislev are both human factions though, aren't they? The only factions that weren't "explored" in WHFB as far as I can tell were Kislev, Cathay, Ind, and possibly the Jade Kingdoms if they're still around. All of these factions are humans. Not very fantasy is it?
Compare that to AoS where we've seen things like the Idoneth, Stormcast, or Ossiarch, as well as the creation of factions that were just a couple of units in WHFB like Daughters of Khaine, Fyreslayers, or Gloomspite. Where would these factions have come from?


The faction with magic ice bears and giant snow cats and witches isn't very fantasy? The faction with crow-men, lightning unicorns, magic warrior monks and giant living stone dogs isn't very fantasy?

It really is baffling that you think new stuff had absolutely nowhere to come from. We did not see every single location, unit, character, city, island etc within the setting. They can just have them come from somewhere we either know little about or someone we know little about - there are all sorts of possibilities with just a bit of imagination.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

There's also Araby, Albion, Vampire Coast, Amazons, Tilea, Estalia, Border Princes, Chaos Dwarfs (they actually HAD a release up until 6th ed I think?), Nippon, Halflings and Norsca. There's a lot of the warhammer world that's been barely touched upon, at least in detail. And of course, there's nothing stopping them from adding Fantasy Korea, Fantasy Greece or not-Atlanteans (or are High Elves meant to be those? Not-Ry'leh then?). With how screwy magic and the fallen gates were who knows what else could pop up too.
Also, what's wrong with human factions? There's nothing wrong with different human factions as long as they can be differentiated. For example, Drop-Zone Commander has 3 (arguably 4 if you count the Scourge's use of human hosts as being a "human" faction) out of 5 factions that are human, and they are all distinct.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 17:40:02


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut






The argument that it would be impossible to add the new aos armies in whfb is so beyond nonsensical it burns my eyes.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 17:13:23


lost and damned log
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/519978.page#6525039 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

There are plenty of ways to split off AOS as a timeline so that the Old World can live on in parallel, from time travel shenanigans to multiverse theory to the Warp works in mysterious ways. There was a tremendous amount of IP value wrapped up in that setting, and still is if GW was willing to resuscitate it correctly.


Ancient Otter wrote:
Skimming over the last ten pages or so, I haven't seen any mention of Oathmark in relation to R&F games or noobs. Guess it's not making as much of an impact despite star power of its author from previous skirmish games or the value of model boxes to make different types of infantry.


Every mention of Oathmark I’ve seen on this site has been about the minis, and how to use them in other games or for conversions with other minis. I personally still think of Oathmark as “Frostgrave (but not)”. Something similar is happening with the Stargrave minis, to a lesser extent.

   
 
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