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Stand up And Fight!
I am an ex-veteran of the Warhmmer 40K universe, back in the early 90's. Along with other followers, I first got 'blooded' with the release of 1st edition of Rogue Trader followed by EPIC Space Marine and WFRP. Having received my order of Deathwatch, I willingly joined to fight the big fight. Indeed I always expected a 40K RPG to appear, but hadn't counted on waiting so long, or be left a little disgruntled with the end product.

Dont get me wrong - I believe like most of you, that Deathwatch will be a good RP - but I think it is a failure in the eyes of what it could have been. Dark Hersey, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch should have been an amalgamated 40K masterpiece. Skills/Combat sections were actually going to be the easiest construct, but I am appalled at the sluggish Background history to help recruit new interested players/novices. Where are the detailed lists of Fleets/vessel types, Titans and endless wave of adversaries to do battle with? After £35, these pages just arent there! I not even sold by the illustrations which are nothing compared to previous work. Is the Imperium doing really that bad in the Ultima Segmentum sector, that all we have to concern ourselves with are the TAU and the Tyranids?

I dont want to sound like Iacton Qruze 'The-Half-Heard' but I do remain an experienced GM still capable of pulling in big crowds - I have however found myself using old Whitedwarf material/illustrations and other reference tool to help noobs/novices of 40K, really understand what they are up against.

So before any of you shout heresy, or traitor and turn your Bolters and chainsaws to face my way - I would ask you to really think about was I have said

Cobourn of Essex, England

You could have said that in a way that was easier to understand...
Yeah the fluff probably isn't as good as you hoped but sometimes they mess up and sometimes they come out with some real shiners so go figure...

Cobourn wrote: Where are the detailed lists of Fleets/vessel types, Titans and endless wave of adversaries to do battle with?

In all the supplements.

Like every other RPG.

I half expected your comments and I respectfully have to disagree with both of you. They messed up this time and I see no reason for it, since all the material to help Fantasy Flight was and still is right there from Games workshop and White Dwarf etc.

An RPG must be adaptable yes - but when I see too many supplements being printed for just one rulebook, I dont accept and/or consider them as being useful and be 'a must have' aid. Instead I look on them more as a rescue attempt.

Cobourn wrote: They messed up this time

I think, on Dakka and in my experience the other related fora, you're in a minority here.

Artwork, almost by definition, is always going to be subjective. There's very few pieces in any of the books I actively dislike, many are from previous supplemets, books etc etc, and some are just drop dead gorgeous.

I'm afraid at the moment your complaints are coming across as a bit too vague and unfocused.

I don't realistically think you could do a 1 book, covers everything in the 40k setting RPG. How could you ? If past games release books to cover singlr worlds, races or even classes.. then how could 40k be compressed down further ?

Rogue Trader has all the sweet fleet information that you seem to long for. Of course, unlike Deathwatch, space faring is a major component of Rogue Trader.

It is strange that a company wouldn't make one book with everything and hope that they can sustain a profit indefinitely.

I think the main thing is that page count on an RPG is always limited, and FFG has to make choices as to what is essential, especially for the core book. Spacecraft (with the exception of landers), Titans, and similar tend to be 'backdrops' for what they expect Deathwatch scenarios to involve, not the core.

Also, much of the setting of 40k is somewhat intentionally undefined or contradictory. They may not want to overly define things and reduce them to mere stats. As has been said in other RPGs: If you stat it out, players will kill it.

I think they do alright with it. The setting is so vast and deep I like the idea that I have different games to play at different levels.
Deathwatch doesn't appeal to me, really- playing as marines would seem to be a pretty pointless exercise outside of a once off (they are good once off fodder though). I like Dark Heresy a lot, and I am really interested in the "sandbox" design of Rogue Trader. I think they are a bit pricey, but the quality is high. I would like to see more adversary stuff in the books, but it is relatively easy to "port" stuff if you already have a working knowledge of the universe.

Also, you're in Essex? I'm in Southend, and I'd love to find an RPG group. Are you anywhere near? (Feel free to PM me!)

Thanks for your feedback Ahtman & Balance. Interesting points, the both of you made.

Msg for Da Boss
I recently moved to Essex and sadly left my RPG group behind. Southend is not far away - so am sure we can find some people to pitch in with us and make a stand!

Cobourn wrote:Dont get me wrong - I believe like most of you, that Deathwatch will be a good RP - but I think it is a failure in the eyes of what it could have been.

How?

Cobourn wrote:Dark Hersey, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch should have been an amalgamated 40K masterpiece.

No.

The three games have a completely different style, method and aim to them. Dark Heresy is about investigation and conspiracies, Rogue Trader is about profit and exploration, Deathwatch is about combat and heroism. Combining the three games would dilute this.

Cobourn wrote:...but I am appalled at the sluggish Background history to help recruit new interested players/novices.

How so? Each book gives a good amount of details on the 40K Universe and then further information on the game's specific setting.

Cobourn wrote:Where are the detailed lists of Fleets/vessel types

How is any of that relevant to Dark Heresy or Deathwatch? And in the case of Rogue Trader, it's not a game about fleets. Battlefleet Koronus, an expansion that's about to be released may add those details in, but trying to say that the games are bad because they don't include lots of fleet details/vessel specifics is like saying the Radical's Handbook is bad because it doesn't contain rules for Tyranids.

Cobourn wrote:Titans and endless wave of adversaries to do battle with?

What would Titans have to do with anything? How are they at all relevant to any of these games? Titan Legions and the Adeptus Mechanicus are mentioned, but why would any more detail be included than was important to the game. How does Dark Heresy benefit from a detailed description of the Titan Legions? How does Rogue Trader benefit? Deathwatch gets a pass here as it's most recent release actually has full rules for Warhound Titans.

And as for 'endless waves of adversaries', take a step back and look at this realistically - page space is a finite thing. There is only so much that you can print in a single book that has to convey EVERYTHING about a game. This is why each game either has, is about to get, or will eventually get its own 'Monster Manual' book. The Creatures Anathema covers the types of creatures that make sense for Dark Heresy, Mark of the Xenos will flesh out the adversaries of the Jericho Reach, and the RT one (the name escapes me) will contain more adversaries that fit with the context of that game.

Cobourn wrote:After £35, these pages just arent there!

Because most of what you described has nothing to do with the game in question.

Cobourn wrote:I not even sold by the illustrations which are nothing compared to previous work.

That's nonsense. They are no better nor worse than the existing RPG books. They're using the same damned artists.

Cobourn wrote:Is the Imperium doing really that bad in the Ultima Segmentum sector...

Eh? What are you blathering about?

Cobourn wrote:... that all we have to concern ourselves with are the TAU and the Tyranids?

That's the setting of Deathwatch, not a broad description of "all" that they face.

The game is set in a specific sector, thus all printed material will related to that sector. And in that Sector we have Tyranids, Tau and Chaos (plus a few other random things). You don't have to use that sector or even like it, but the game itself is (correctly) given a specific setting with which to anchor its adventures and events. I don't use the Calixis Sector for our Dark Heresy games, but I don't decry the game for having the Calixis Sector in the first place.

Cobourn wrote:I dont want to sound like Iacton Qruze 'The-Half-Heard' but I do remain an experienced GM still capable of pulling in big crowds - I have however found myself using old Whitedwarf material/illustrations and other reference tool to help noobs/novices of 40K, really understand what they are up against.

And? There are many people out there who have come into 40K cold via these RPG's without problem. 40K can be quite impenetrable, I'll give you that, but I don't see how these games make it any harder than the 40K rulebook.

Well - I received some pretty ferocious counters from you H.B.M.C, but I will answer them since it's on my thread.
But please - I do not feel the need to explain in any depth what I meant by Deathwatch helping setup some good roleplays. It was merely a polite/positive gesture, i.e. I didn’t plan on being all doom & gloom. I have been a warhammer collector for years mate.

Furthermore, I will tell you 'Surprise' is one of key weapons deployed by a GM in introducing some gaming elements that might not be realised at first, or even expected by the most seasoned gamers/PCs. Try to open your mind a little more and realise the potential. While I could give you some tips, it is outside the confines of this debate.

DH, RT and DW could and should have quite easily been made into one piece of work. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but they shouldn’t believe it impossible.
By amalgamating the work together would by no means ‘dilute’ game-play any more than the supplements that everyone is being bombarded with. It would actually stop much of the latter.

Until recently, I couldn’t see or dream of styling/categorising (carve up if you will) the 40K universe. It is not even being done properly. It seems we have all adopted 40K RP product-designs with no real backbone or any real cohesion.

In short – keep the sectors and some of your ‘stylised’ missions in the supplements And join me in the meaty ‘gloves off’ attitude to the 40K universe, history/background, rules, skills, combat notes, aliens etc

This should all be covered in one Corebook. Thats what its For - and that's what you Pay for!

Cobourn wrote:Well - I received some pretty ferocious counters from you H.B.M.C

And you will continue to get such responses as long as you continue to state opinion as thought it were fact...

Cobourn wrote:... I do not feel the need to explain in any depth what I meant...

Of course you don’t, because that would require some critical thought and actual evidence to ‘prove’ something that is mere opinion ie. an impossibility. It’s far easier to make broad sweeping and general statements and try to pass them off as ‘fact’ or ‘truth’ when all they are is ‘your personal view’.

Cobourn wrote:I have been a warhammer collector for years mate.

As have I. Just before 2nd Ed came about actually, if we’re keeping score.

Cobourn wrote:Furthermore, I will tell you 'Surprise' is one of key weapons deployed by a GM in introducing some gaming elements that might not be realised at first, or even expected by the most seasoned gamers/PCs. Try to open your mind a little more and realise the potential. While I could give you some tips, it is outside the confines of this debate.

Excellent. A GM who thinks he knows everything, and seeks to ‘help’ others on how to be a good GM.

Cobourn wrote:DH, RT and DW could and should have quite easily been made into one piece of work. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but they shouldn’t believe 2it impossible.

Could have? Yes.
Easily? With some exceptions, yes.
Impossible? Not at all. Quite possible in fact.

In these areas we are in agreement.

But should have been? My only response to that is – Why? Or perhaps – for what purpose?

When Black Industries (and later FFG) set out to write the 40K RPGs their aim was not to present Warhammer 40,000 in its entirety but instead to present an RPG with a firm grounding in one aspect of 40K Lore. They chose the Inquisition, building off what was learnt from the game Inquisitor some years ago. This was continued with Rogue Trader, giving us an expanded and far freer look at the Imperium – you’re a ship’s captain, you have a warrant of trade, you can go where you please in the name of the Emperor and plunder, destroy or help whomever you desire! And finally in Deathwatch we got Marines, and not only that Marines in the setting that made the most sense – Deathwatch, a merging of Chapters rather than a game about a specific Chapter.

To say that the 40K RPGs fail in such absolutist terms is hilariously misguided Cobourn. They do not present an overall RPG that contains 40K within a single game, so cannot be judged against such criteria. If that had been their aim – to make an all-encompassing RPG - then they would have failed. But they never set out to do that. Instead, they set out to make a game about the Inquisition – and they did that; a game about Rogue Traders – and they did that; a game about the Deathwatch – and they did that. There’s no failure, only a difference over what you perceive should be the focus of the games.

If you want an RPG that focuses on 40K as a whole – that’s fine and there’s nothing wrong with wanting such a thing – but railing against a series of RPG products because they do not present what you personally wanted (especially when their intent was not to represent 40K as a whole but, rather, represent various specific aspects of it) is quite stupid I’m afraid.

To put it another way: You cannot criticise something or someone for failing to achieve something that they never intended or attempted to achieve in the first place. You don’t have to like what they have done, but claiming that they ‘should’ have done something is pointless. They should do only what they intended to do, and what they intended to do was to create three RPG’s focusing on different areas of the 40K universe. In this they succeeded (for the most part – nothing is flawless).

Cobourn wrote:By amalgamating the work together would by no means ‘dilute’ game-play any more than the supplements that everyone is being bombarded with. It would actually stop much of the latter.

It would dilute it. Other than being an open-ended (mess), how would merging the three RPG’s help achieve anything other than dilution? Firstly you’d lose the focus on the Inquisition, Rogue Traders and Space Marines and just be left with “The Imperium & Ships + Marines – The RPG”. There’d be no structure to it.

And as far as being ‘bombarded’ with supplements, give me a break. RPG’s have supplements. It’s how they expand the world and create new content whilst at the same time generating business. Do you want everything to come in one book? 40K doesn’t come in one book – it has rulebooks, expansions, Codices, etc. – so why should the 40K RPG line be any different?

Cobourn wrote:Until recently, I couldn’t see or dream of styling/categorising (carve up if you will) the 40K universe.

Then that’s your problem. They’ve been doing that for a very long time. Even 40K itself doesn’t allow you to represent everything within its background. There’s just too much of it. Expecting an RPG to do that is quite strange.

Cobourn wrote:It is not even being done properly. It seems we have all adopted 40K RP product-designs with no real backbone or any real cohesion.

Bull. Gak.

No cohesion? No backbone? What do you call the three settings? The 40K RPG, as a set of rules, is the backbone. It is the structure upon which the settings for each RPG line rest. The settings themselves provide the cohesion – in one game you are an Acolyte, in another the command crew of a ship, and in the final a Marine. These are cohesive settings, anchored within an area of space (Calixis, Koronus, Jericho) from which to draw inspiration and create scenarios and adventures, both official and unofficial.

Removing those structures, and throwing everything into one book. That would cause a breakdown of cohesion. Even the most free-wheeling of RPG’s still needs a setting to make it cohesive, and a set of rules to give it structure. The 40K RPG line has both of these.

Cobourn wrote:In short – keep the sectors and some of your ‘stylised’ missions in the supplements And join me in the meaty ‘gloves off’ attitude to the 40K universe, history/background, rules, skills, combat notes, aliens etc

You know that all three games are (99%) compatible with one another, and that if you want to have the Grand Adventures of the Space Marine Rogue Trader Acolytes in Space, then you can. Why destroy the very basis of what the 40K RPGs were founded around just for the sake of throwing everything into the same mixing pot?

Cobourn wrote:This should all be covered in one Corebook. Thats what its For - and that's what you Pay for!

Why? Each of the three RPG’s deals with different aspects of 40K that don’t overlap. Why would a Dark Heresy player need the rules for Acquisition and Profit Factor? Why would a Rogue Trader player need to know about Marine Oath Taking and Squad Modes? The core books cover the things that are core to the specific setting. That’s why they are core rulebooks. Putting anything else in there would just clutter them up.

You’re very welcome to have your opinion on the matter Cobourn, but please don’t mistake your opinion for fact, or your subjective views on artwork as some sort of actual valid criticism.

I personally dislike some of the original artwork made for Deathwatch. Proportions and alike sometimes are messed up but they give at least an idea of what the players should have to face.

I am pleased also with all three games even if Dark Heresy is my least favourite, it seems Fantasy Roleplay in the 40k. With Ascension they've made it the REAL thing IMHO.

Also, all three books depict different ways to fight, move and feel the 40k universe as HBMC already told you. In a RPG this is BASIC... and when I say it , I mean it! A Space Marine nowadays is really different from all other humans so you can't use a single book to depict them... it would be terrible.

KOS wrote:I personally dislike some of the original artwork made for Deathwatch. Proportions and alike sometimes are messed up...

I don't like all the art either - I think the front cover of the book is probably the worst - but that's hardly a reason to 'turn against' Deathwatch (not that that's what you were saying).

I appreciate your feedback KOS - but I respectfully have to disagree with your last point, if I understood you correctly. Are you saying that we should isolate Space Marines entirely from DH and RT?


Msg for H.B.M.C
I am not trying to pass my comments off as ‘fact’ or ‘truth’
- I just wanted to share my opinion is all, as a fellow gamer/collector. So quit the aggressive tone.

Furthermore its not about point scoring - I have listened and nodded to some of the points you and others have said - but for you personally to suggest that my own thoughts were stupid and/or strange, makes you in my eyes, a person with a limited imagination.

You have blown some items of what I have said completely out of proportion. In some instances, you have ignored what I have said completely and subsituted your own thoughts as my answer. I sincerely hope you dont do this against your own close proximity of people&friends.

BTW dont stab/quote at everything I say, or try to further insult my intelligence. If you can't be friendly and resume in the normal guidelines of a discussion/debate, then I won't be able to take your comments on board seriously at all - I will just ignore you and ask you to leave.

Cobourn wrote:I appreciate your feedback KOS - but I respectfully have to disagree with your last point, if I understood you correctly. Are you saying that we should isolate Space Marines entirely from DH and RT?

not at all. Deathwatch charachters can play inside every other system since the basic system is the same. What I mean is that merging everything from the beginning would have been confusionary and problematic. Every game has a shared core mechanism but has differences of what makes Role Playing as a Marine, Inquisitor or Rogue Trader, cool. The only problem in all of this is that a Space Marine is DEADLY against every other human. They have pumped charachteristics and deadly abilities / talents.

As a Rogue Trader you have profit, as a Marine, reputation and prestige.

This can't be achieved in a single book, it would have been... too much to handle and would have been confusionary to say the least. I don't like to have multiple books either (for a monetary point of view), but if the product deserves it... why not ?

I can't actually figure out what the OP wants.

Does he want us to burn our books in protest, while chanting "No means no!"?

But, putting it simply:
The setup for 40k RPG is the best possible way to do it. The only thing it's really missing is an Imperial Guard RPG.

I hear what your're saying KOS about the Role Play design mechanism, which has been laid down for both DH, RT and DW. I have to raise my hands up and say that I will have to refer to the DH and RT core rulebooks (not just DW) - This way I will be able to determine if your reckoning is the true way to go.

Hold the matches though Kanluwen, I havent said dont burn the books yet

Thanks for your input guys.

Cobourn wrote:I am not trying to pass my comments off as ‘fact’ or ‘truth’
- I just wanted to share my opinion is all, as a fellow gamer/collector. So quit the aggressive tone.

Furthermore its not about point scoring - I have listened and nodded to some of the points you and others have said - but for you personally to suggest that my own thoughts were stupid and/or strange, makes you in my eyes, a person with a limited imagination.

You have blown some items of what I have said completely out of proportion. In some instances, you have ignored what I have said completely and subsituted your own thoughts as my answer. I sincerely hope you dont do this against your own close proximity of people&friends.

BTW dont stab/quote at everything I say, or try to further insult my intelligence. If you can't be friendly and resume in the normal guidelines of a discussion/debate, then I won't be able to take your comments on board seriously at all - I will just ignore you and ask you to leave.

Oh... well in that case concession accepted. If you can't be bothered to respond to what I've said, and feel that your only method of rebuttal is to tell me to "be nice", then it is clear that you really having nothing of any value to say.

Cobourn wrote:Hold the matches though Kanluwen, I havent said dont burn the books yet

No but you are telling us to 'turn against' Deathwatch... for reasons that are equal parts flawed, misguided, based upon personal preference rather than any quantifiable fact and, in some cases, completely untrue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:I can't actually figure out what the OP wants.

You're not the only one Kan.

Kanluwen wrote:But, putting it simply:
The setup for 40k RPG is the best possible way to do it. The only thing it's really missing is an Imperial Guard RPG.

Well we may get something similar to that. 'Only War' is the last book on the 2011 release schedule.

lol H.M.B.C you crack me up.

By the way, its 'the turn' against Deathwatch' [my turn i.e. Me] and Not 'turn against Deathwatch'

Pehaps if I had put something easier for you - you wouldnt 'try to be' the man so much. BTW are you using words picked from a theasurus to find words to put in your script to go against everything I say - I mean c'mon. And its not that I dont have anything valuable to say - I just switched off with your ranting and raving. Get a grip for god's sake.

I am not planning on instigating a riot against Deathwatch -I wouldnt have bougt it otherwise! I am only venting my disapointmet with the final product is all.

Thanks for your welcome into Drakka H.B.M.C. - its appreciated.

Personal insults. Even a half-hearted and utterly inane attempt to mock the words I use. Amazing. Still you refuse to respond to a snigle point raised. Is that truly the best you've got? Or is that all you've got?

Also, in reference to 'stab' quoting, I prefer context over confusion. If I am repsonding to a specific point, I will quote that specific point in order to maintain context. It's far better than block quoting someone.

I must first apologize for still being new enough to not know how to paste quotes and stuff.. but here is my 2 cents... I agree 100% that the 3 games should not, and were never intended to be merged into one meta game. It would be so cumbersome and unwieldy.. it would like instead of having a phone book that covered the surrounding area you lived in it covered the entire state, or country.

I had the pleasure of meeting a rep with FFG and, using DnD as a template this is the best way I can describe the intent of FFG to produce DH, RT and DW the way they did. Dark Heresy is the introductory game into the 40K RPG universe.. think of it as a low level DnD game. Rogue Trader is the mid level game and Deathwatch is the Epic level game. This makes a lot of sense when you roll up a starting character for each game and then put the character sheets side by side and compare them.. stat wise, ability wise, etc.. all across the board you can see the progression between the 3 games.

FFG and by extension Games Workshop has devised a universe that is trying to have an appeal to a broad spectrum of gamers. And all of the games are designed to "interact" with each other.. but you have to be careful. Just dropping in a character from DH into DW is literally suicide.. on the flip side the reverse would be extremely unbalancing (putting it lightly). IMHO characters or adventures between each of the systems should be handled like "crossovers" in comic books.. it should generate an exciting story arc which would/could touch into each system the GM wanted.. but would be a "one-off" and nothing more.. Making a group in Dark Heresy to campaign in Deathwatch just wouldn't work...

Cobourn wrote: And its not that I dont have anything valuable to say

Cool.

At the moment I'm afraid that other than showing a disappointment in regards to the game(s) released in the setting so far -- which is, ultimately, a matter of personal preference after all -- I, and t'would seem many other posters, are somewhat confused as to what point you're trying to make.

I mean if you own all /any of the books, it's clear that the 3 systems *are* one game -- Rites of Battle even has some (scant) notes about combining them all in various ways. Some of the writers themselves talk about playing a DW game with one of them as a high level Inquisitor.

I don't get what you mean by " join me in the meaty ‘gloves off’ attitude to the 40K universe, history/background, rules, skills, combat notes, aliens etc "... that's what we've got isn't it ?

I run a Deathwatch game and enjoyed making an NPC using the DH rules.The RT game I play in has DH elements involved, it just requires a little thought....

reds8n, RennyD and The_Ferrett - nice of you to join us.

Since recently joining Dakka, I have learned that you have got to be really careful what you write because people can get the wrong end of the stick, with what you say. So my apologies if people did not understand fully what I said with my top posting.

But hey, you havent been running around needlessly - the point am making -
If you consider the 1989 release of the Original Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (WFRP) - you have a 366 page core rulebook. This book was so good - 'I personally think' it effectively kick started the DH, RT and DW which some of you have in your hands.

The diversity of the original WFRP rulebook beats DH, RT and DW into fits - let me explain why! - You can still run around helping the needy and becoming famous for good things (sound familiar), or you can go around, stealing and slaying (deathwatch?) - after all, it's all roleplay.

Indeed - whether you've wanted to be a mighty Witch Hunter (hunting the evil ones), Assassin (killing, well anyone) [cough DH], Necomancer (wizard raising armies of dead people, generally for mischevious purposes), demonologists (summoning demons and daemons to do your bidding, causing bad things and possibly ending up getting eaten) or even a Servant (I think you can learn to scrub with this one), a beggar (in case you've ever really wanted to try it out?)or a jailor (who gets D6 flies with him, and you can name them all!). There'll be something there for you all, however fun, charming,intelligent,sick or twisted you may be or feel at the time

What 'you had' effectively is now lost a little in the 40K RPGs. The original WFRP (I know its Fanatasy and not 40K) but you have a creative masterpiece of dark, violent, oppressive, vast, barbarous, perilous, fertile, colourful, magical, corrupted, filled with teeming cities, foul creatures of Chaos, fortified villages and Elf-haunted forests...these words could be used to describe the grim Old World, the setting of the classic Warhammer game. And its roleplay system is realistic, complicated and detailed (without sacrificing playability or fear of diluting!), opulent (over 100 character careers and 130 character skills gentlemen! There are lots of humanoid races/adversaries from Fimirs, Goblins, Orks to Zoats etc and very original (especially with regard to the development of the player characters). All in all, a classic and yet quite overlooked roleplaying game (it's one of my favourites for many years now

....so gentleman, what I have been trying to say to you (this time giving you the full history) is Why the hell didnt we have a 400 page rulebook with both dark hersey assassins, rogue traders, space marines, Orks, Elder all combined together? Your supplements could still be vehicles, fleets, titans (and yes the latter can go in easily enough).

You dont have to answer H.B.M.C- I hear your points and I am sorry if we got on the wrong foot. But while I accept most of what people have said - none of the comments seem to carry much weight i.e I am not convinced.

Look I hate to be the person on the outside of a group - but I believe strongly in this fella's and I sadly believed some of you felt cheated like me. Thats what I meant by saying join me....‘gloves off’ attitude to say 'Yeah we expected something a bit better'.

....so gentleman, what I have been trying to say to you (this time giving you the full history) is Why the hell didnt we have a 400 page rulebook with both dark hersey assassins, rogue traders, space marines, Orks, Elder all combined together?

Because that wouldn't work.

Now, I'm a big WFRP fan -- had ( and sold ) and rebuying most of the 1st edition books, got all of the 2nd edition ones....*sticks fingers in ears and closes eyes about existence of 3rd* .

But the setup you've described wouldn't work for 40k, oddly enough for the reasons you list above.

All of that, all those careers, background and so... the 366 page book... was about a single world. One.

Now factor that up to the number of worlds in the 40k setting, just say in the Imperium alone.

And there's discrepancies in technological level in those worlds that covers everything from stone age clubs and spears, to self repairing robots capable of warping the nature of space and time itself.

Oh, and magic.

Plus it's the essential difference between the settings : Eldar don't team up with a Squat, a Ratling, an Ogryn and a commissar and go into bars looking for farmers with far too much gold who want some wolves killed. In fact for the vast majority of people in the setting their lives won't change. In fact there's rules and regulations to stop them from getting on or improving themselves.

With all the alternate starting packages and background options you now have a fair few character options -- sure things like Marines will be similar -- that is kinda the point though eh ? -- but you get flavour from the variant chapters -- wildly different -- I still have a burning desire to run my DW Black Shield notatallanoutoftimeloyalistIronWarrior using most of the IF rules -- and career paths.

And I think you're being somewhat disingenuous about what you could do in WFRP : you talk about a book featuring Space Marines and Rogue Traders.. when that's far, far beyond the power one could attain in WFRP -- there were no High Elf Phoenix guard rules, Battle Mages or rules for playing most of the monsters in the setting.

reds8n wrote:With all the alternate starting packages and background options you now have a fair few character options -- sure things like Marines will be similar -- that is kinda the point though eh ? -- but you get flavour from the variant chapters -- wildly different -- I still have a burning desire to run my DW Black Shield notatallanoutoftimeloyalistIronWarrior using most of the IF rules -- and career paths.

I made something similar in the first missions my player had to do on Meniscus. A fellow deathwatch squad, led by a really old Blackshield, got in the underground of the main city to destroy a xeno/mutant threat. The NPC squad got beaten and the Blackshield was badly hurt but was capable of organizing the defence of serverial Imperial Guard squads. The PCs tried to get some information from him while dying, to honor his chapter and his memory but he refused (failed Fellowship test by the one trying) telling that "His secrets will be known only to the Emperor"

The Blackshield was a former fallen Dark Angel who repent and decided to perform a penitent deed on an eternal crusade to cleanse his soul on the eyes of the Emperor.

The players realized something was wrong when a ship of the Dark Angels arrived in the Fortress Monastery to request information about the dead blackshield.

It was cool, but I wonder what they would have done if they knew that the guy was actually a former chaos follower or at least a traitor.

reds8n brought up some really good reasons why not.. let me add or elaborate on some.. oh.. and a point of nit-picking... 1st edition WFRP came out in 1986 (I know this cuz it was the year I graduated from high school & we were all really excited about it coming out and us having so much time to play!)

The magic system was critically flawed, IMO. There weren't enough spells, especially for 3rd & 4th level. Some spell casters had at most maybe a dozen spells they could cast throughout their career?? Like the demonologist... this supposed bada$$ spell caster had less than 20 spells throughout his entire career arch.. are you kidding?? The whole spell lists themselves were fractious and left you feeling empty handed. By definition 4th level spell casters were like gods.. but there were no rules for creating your own spells, no rules AT ALL for runes even though you could learn the skill to use them. The spell point system was worse than DnD's X number of spells per day.. (this was changed in 2nd edition WFRP with a skill roll to cast spells)

Magic items. This part of the game totally blew monkey chunks... it was disorganized, disheartening.. it totally dissed. And the opponents for PCs? It would have gotten really, REALLY boring to face the same, vanilla, opponents as they are all just basic.. even the ubiquitous skaven... just run-of-the-mill...

RennyD

I for one agree will the three different books for the 40k series of rpgs. I mean, there's so much back story to just the Space Marines that it could fill a 355 page book, and that's -not- including the rules. You could do the same for the Inquisition, and I'm sure there's just as much for Rogue Trader (my least favourite one thus far).

To compress the entirety of the 40k universe into one book would by necessity mean that you would get no more than a brief snippet on each facet and none of it would be done justice. Just be happy the games are out after 20 plus years of waiting and hope for their success so that development of the setting can continue. Afterall, we don't get the information for the various armies with the brb so why would you expect FF to do this with a body of work that needs to be greatly more detailed?