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So, we've all seen countless threads talking about the top three and bottom three armies in terms of pure "power".

Top three is typically IG, SW, BA in different orders.

Bottom three is typically Necrons, Tau, DH in different orders.

Now that the new GK codex is coming out, things are going to shuffle around a bit. GK may make the top three. It's too early to tell for sure. But, if they do, who gets bumped off the list?
BA is my bet, but what are your thoughts?

And, with GK becoming more powerful (this is almost certain), it seems we need a new army for the bottom 3. Who gets this spot?
DA and BT seem to have taken themselves out of the running with the latest FAQ buff for them. Are WH now the 3rd worst army? Or CSM?

I'd postulate that Chaos Daemons would fill that void. They aren't overly powerful to begin with, and fall even farther down the power list since (if GK does in fact become one of the top 3) what might become a very often played army is pretty much built from the ground up to beat them.

I'm going to say WH, I haven't read that codex, but it seems a safe assumption given that it hasn't had an update since 3rd edition.

I say Dark Angels will be at least tier 2. Oh, wait, is it too early to predict that one, too?

Can we at least get a printed codex in hand before kowtowing to the made-up tiers of playability? Whatever happened to "oh, they're cool, I'll play them?" Now it's "well, this isn't part of the power-3 tier (or whatever), so, I'm not playing it."

based on my experience:

Top 3
IG, BA, SW

Bottom 3
Necrons, Chaos Daemons, Eldar (herp dee derp space marines and tyranids have better psykers than the most powerfully psychic race in the game, not to mention better shooting and hand to hand)

Chaos Daemons are definitely not bottom tier now-middle range yes, bottom-no way. After Grey Knights hit, they will go way down on the list for a short period of time, but once the "ooo shiny" players go away, they'll bump back up to mid-range. Anyone who thinks they are bottom tier now hasn't ever played against a halfway decent Daemons player-I typically place within the top 3 slots of every tournament I've taken my daemons to, with one fluke tourney putting me at last-every scatter die dropped me badly and I failed every save-it happens. But worst army ever? Absolutely not

I'd say top tier are SW, BA and probably soon to be GK (I haven't seen any proof myself that IG deserves a top 3 slot, but until GK I will consent that many people online feel they do-so I am bumping them in favor of the GK hitting)

Bottom tier I would say belongs to Necrons, Tau and Witchhunters. Can you win with these armies? Yes. I've lost to Tau and Necrons with my Blood angels, but they require a LOT more work and no errors whatsoever to win.

Middle tier includes DA, BT (which is VERY strong right now, but doesn't quite make the cut), Daemons, CSM, SM, Nids, Eldar, DE and soon to be IG. My two cents

So now that my Dark Angels are now second tier I've started Tau! There's something wrong with this picture...

I'm going to hold judgement on GK, I don't think Guard is going to get replaced in the top tier regardless of the release. There are just too many viable things that Guard can do imo.

Top Tier is Wolves and Guard. I'm not sure about 3rd, I've never had issues against blood angels with my gunline DA, but sanguinary guard and death co absolutely love my plasma cannons.

Corvus wrote:
Necrons, Chaos Daemons, Eldar (herp dee derp space marines and tyranids have better psykers than the most powerfully psychic race in the game, not to mention better shooting and hand to hand)

Daemons?

Having read the leaked codex I think GKs are going to be number 1 if the release rules are the same, I can at least confidently say that the games most powerfull deathstar unit will be 10 Paladins each with seperate wargear and the apothecary giveing them feel no pain.

Then can put Grand Master Mordack in to make them deepstrike in the first turn with no scatter too! And turn them into scoring as troops! Oh and each time Mordack takes a wound you might get another terminator! Thats pretty tough stuff.

So thats a squad of 2 wound terminators with feel no pain. Deepstriking first turn with no scatter, counting as troops (if you so wish) and a chance to spawn another terminator each time Mordack is wounded,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luco wrote:So now that my Dark Angels are now second tier I've started Tau! There's something wrong with this picture...

I'm going to hold judgement on GK, I don't think Guard is going to get replaced in the top tier regardless of the release. There are just too many viable things that Guard can do imo.

Top Tier is Wolves and Guard. I'm not sure about 3rd, I've never had issues against blood angels with my gunline DA, but sanguinary guard and death co absolutely love my plasma cannons.

What blood angels lists have you played? I've yet to see much do well against the Blood Angels with the Razorback with assault cannon spam technique.

I think the GK release is going to turn the entire meta on its head personally. Codex Dark Eldar did a lot to make mech armies feel the pain, The Grey Knight book has the potential to make mech a dangerous proposition.

obsidianaura wrote:Having read the leaked codex I think GKs are going to be number 1 if the release rules are the same, I can at least confidently say that the games most powerfull deathstar unit will be 10 Paladins each with seperate wargear and the apothecary giveing them feel no pain.

Then can put Grand Master Mordack in to make them deepstrike in the first turn with no scatter too! And turn them into scoring as troops! Oh and each time Mordack takes a wound you might get another terminator! Thats pretty tough stuff.

So thats a squad of 2 wound terminators with feel no pain. Deepstriking first turn with no scatter, counting as troops (if you so wish) and a chance to spawn another terminator each time Mordack is wounded,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luco wrote:So now that my Dark Angels are now second tier I've started Tau! There's something wrong with this picture...

I'm going to hold judgement on GK, I don't think Guard is going to get replaced in the top tier regardless of the release. There are just too many viable things that Guard can do imo.

Top Tier is Wolves and Guard. I'm not sure about 3rd, I've never had issues against blood angels with my gunline DA, but sanguinary guard and death co absolutely love my plasma cannons.

What blood angels lists have you played? I've yet to see much do well against the Blood Angels with the Razorback with assault cannon spam technique.

Foot angels with lots of jump packs. Not a whole lot in the way of vehicles one way or another. Very few people at my old store spammed units with the exception of mandatory units. Likely why I do so well, but bias aside it is my experience against them.

I just looked at the leaked information and I do hope this isn't right. If it is we now have 3 all Terminator capable armies? Loganwing, Deathwing, and Knightwing plus the amount the Black Templars can put on the table. 3++ is the new black was rather aptly named... I mean we're getting close to having a fourth of all the armies being nothing but terminators.

Fluff wise it makes it's to be expected for Grey Knights to have lots more terminator armour than any other chapter.

They have enough to give it to everyone, as soon as they become a grey knight.

I'm probably going to pick some up because GK terminators are the only one's I like the look of.

There's no option to give GK terminators Storm Sheilds though

obsidianaura wrote:
There's no option to give GK terminators Storm Sheilds though

That we currently know of. There's wargear that's optional upgrades. I haven't seen a leaked copy that included the wargear section.

So, for all we know, one of those upgrade listings was for a Storm Shield that also grants added psychic defense.

Grakmar wrote:

obsidianaura wrote:
There's no option to give GK terminators Storm Sheilds though

That we currently know of. There's wargear that's optional upgrades. I haven't seen a leaked copy that included the wargear section.

So, for all we know, one of those upgrade listings was for a Storm Shield that also grants added psychic defense.

Just by looking at the entries options there nothing that has a cost of one so I'm assuming there wont be.

I think they might be weapons that grant a similar thing instead, or it working by another name like you suggest

But as you say, we've not seen the wargear section. I wouldn't count on it though. I could't make out any storm sheilds in the leaked pictures either (mind you it's hard to make much out at all)

But probably not. The warding stave is likely the only upgrade that improves their invul beyond the 4++ that GKTs will have in CC or the 5++ vs shooting.

What, no 3++ for troop units this time around?

Henchmen are probably the only models that can be taken 3++ en masse... and they can be troops.

The scariest part of the codex does indeed look to be the hench retinues.

There is no worst three codices, there is only Tau.

Necrons, WH, and Daemons don't need to be anywhere near being called "the worst" as they are still quite powerful and run circles around Tau.

Chilipowderkeg....If a competent tau player cannot beat a competent necron player, they're doing it wrong.

Have you ever fought necrons? They are useless, complete crap. I would go so far to say they are the worst codex around. Battlesisters have bolter melta flamer spam, good transports, awesome as Excorcists, and Immolaters. Tau have Hammerheads, broadsides, and especially crysis suits, one of the best units around. Necrons have crappy hth, no 2+ saves, barely any invulnerables, and monoliths are their only AV, and large blast. 2 Hammerheads or some broadsides will walk ALL OVER a necron list, even if its 3x monolith with destroyers lord destroyers and heavy destroyers.

With all the deep strike denial that the codex has, I see DoA Blood Angels and Daemons of all flavours losing a lot of their allure. Daemons could be rendered unplayable competetively, and DoA BA would probably need to be significantly rethought.

Jaon wrote:Chilipowderkeg....If a competent tau player cannot beat a competent necron player, they're doing it wrong.

Have you ever fought necrons? They are useless, complete crap. I would go so far to say they are the worst codex around. Battlesisters have bolter melta flamer spam, good transports, awesome as Excorcists, and Immolaters. Tau have Hammerheads, broadsides, and especially crysis suits, one of the best units around. Necrons have crappy hth, no 2+ saves, barely any invulnerables, and monoliths are their only AV, and large blast. 2 Hammerheads or some broadsides will walk ALL OVER a necron list, even if its 3x monolith with destroyers lord destroyers and heavy destroyers.

The necron list you suggest would be a terrible one.

Take minimum warriors, spam destroyers and add hvy d's and immortals to taste.

It would be a solid all-comers list (for necrons at least) and would EAT tau. Suits or no suits.

Okay fair enough, I admit I am a terrible necron list maker But lets take yours into account too.

If I was playing tau, I wouldnot have a hard time dropping some suits and assassinating your Heavy Destroyers early on, now how are you gunna touch my tanks?

Jaon wrote:Okay fair enough, I admit I am a terrible necron list maker But lets take yours into account too.

If I was playing tau, I wouldnot have a hard time dropping some suits and assassinating your Heavy Destroyers early on, now how are you gunna touch my tanks?

Why do I need to worry about your tanks? What are they going to do, kill a necron or two per shooting phase?

Tau shoots. Necrons shoots. Tau don't get back up. Necrons do most of the time. When I played my 4th ed necrons, my final 2k all comers list had 96 str5 shots with a minimum threat range of 30" with 42 t5 bodies.

While that list would blow today (as most any necron list), it would do pretty well vs tau.

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:There is no worst three codices, there is only Tau.

Necrons, WH, and Daemons don't need to be anywhere near being called "the worst" as they are still quite powerful and run circles around Tau.

Whoever you are playing against... doesn't play Tau very well.

Are Tau challenging to win with? Yes. Does Tau have numerous problems and useless units/weapons/wargear in their codex? Yes.

Does that make them the worst army in 40k? No.

I really think it depends on who is playing the army

A good stratigist will beat a poor one the majority of the time.

Play what you want and enjoy playing, learn the codex/rules and stratagies of the game and any army in the right hands can be the best.

IMHO

NidPrime wrote:I really think it depends on who is playing the army

A good stratigist will beat a poor one the majority of the time.

Play what you want and enjoy playing, learn the codex/rules and stratagies of the game and any army in the right hands can be the best.

IMHO

That's bs and you know it.

It's like taking a tank to a gunfight, and expecting the guy with the pistol will come out on top because he's more skilled (and we'll assume that his name isn't Ramirez).

Actually Tau Broadsides (@ st. 10) tend to excel at dropping monoliths, if the opponent is a bring-3-liths kind of guy.

Cottonjaw wrote:

ChiliPowderKeg wrote:There is no worst three codices, there is only Tau.

Necrons, WH, and Daemons don't need to be anywhere near being called "the worst" as they are still quite powerful and run circles around Tau.

Whoever you are playing against... doesn't play Tau very well.

Are Tau challenging to win with? Yes. Does Tau have numerous problems and useless units/weapons/wargear in their codex? Yes.

Does that make them the worst army in 40k? No.

Actually, If I may snip a bit from Jaon's post. I'm the incompetant Tau player. I do not deny this as this is very true (even though they were my first army).

Apologies that the whole Necrons>Tau post has caused a bit of stir, but this is a bit bias for in the four years of using them, I have only acumulated 9 wins (All against new and old Nids, and Ork Kan spam). Meaning my face is almost always, and still is, stomped flat by the locals.

The thing is about Necrons is warrior spam, it's the only kind of list I've been up against, and a whole army of +3 saves and rerolling WBB is honestly quite frightening, also some equiptment on the lord allows WBB or something against AP 1-3 weapons.

Both nercons and tau are bottom teir, this isn't being contested. The overall difference between the two is nercons last longer, while tau have better ranged weapon options. Both suck in melee, but at least the nercons have some stuff (see nightbringer) that can deal with melee.

Let me tell you though, the Tau are some fantastic in team games. With the right support, they can really be a force to be reckoned with.