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I would like to start off by saying that I just joined the forum for the first time, but I've been lurking here for a long time. I've enjoyed the community, so I finally decided to make an account.

I was just wondering if anyone else has had an issue similar to mine. I'll try to explain as best as I can. I've been playing 40k and Fantasy since 2002. My best friend (I'll call him Stan for now) introduced me to the game when I met him in high school. From the time that I knew the game well I noticed that Stan has been "cheating" by cutting small corners. For example, if he rolls a scatter dice, he will measure slightly farther to one side in his favor. So let's say you look at the dice and the arrow is sitting at 45 degrees. He will measure to 35-40 degrees. Stan's that guy that measures half an inch farther than he should on purpose. When rolling for leadership, a small amount of important attacks or just a vital save, he will use larger dice and hold his hand very low to the table to basically drop the dice on it's opposite side on the table without actually rolling. Yes, he will place the 1 facing up and drop the dice to a 6 for attacks or saves and vice versa for leadership.

I know what you're thinking, just call him out on it. The problem is I have almost every time, but this just ends in Stan getting angry saying I'm trying to cheat him out of winning or just flat out say I'm wrong. There's no doubt that he's a good Warhammer player, but I often feel like he cheats to ensure that he will win. I play to have fun, but when I see this happening it just sucks the fun out of the game. I've even just stopped playing for a year before, just because I couldn't stand playing with him. Stan's brother eventually stopped playing Warhammer 40k and Fantasy because of his brother's cheating. Stan has won almost every tournament he has entered, but I wonder if he sometimes wins because he "cuts corners". I know he has been kicked out of a tournament for cheating before. Not to mention, everything I just spoke of, I've noticed he does when he plays other people, but most of them will not say something about rolls like I will, unless it's an official judge.

I'm just frustrated because I don't understand why someone would cheat in a game that I play just to have fun and socialize, ruining the game for myself and others. The game is very competitive, but there's no reason to cheat.

Have you guys had trouble with people like this? How would you deal with someone who does these things and almost gets furiously angry when you talk to them about it? I just had to vent.

Put an old metal deff-dredd model in a sock. Failing that a half-brick works..

Then belt him over the head with it.


Failing that, you have two options:

Do the same as he does (not advocating, just bringing it up) and then go a 1/4 inch further ) basically do what he is doing but a shade more so. When he calls you on it point out that you are doing what he does, and he taught you the game. You're a fast learner...

Find another opponent. We're EVERYWHERE Failing that find a friend and teach him the game, and do it right. Play properly, and so will they, most likely.. You'll have a good deal more fun.

Frankly the guys a classic cheating TFG.

Ascalam wrote:Put an old metal deff-dredd model in a sock. Failing that a half-brick works..

Then belt him over the head with it.

omg this

Ascalam wrote:
Do the same as he does (not advocating, just bringing it up) and then go a 1/4 inch further ) basically do what he is doing but a shade more so. When he calls you on it point out that you are doing what he does, and he taught you the game. You're a fast learner...

I like that. I guess I never really thought about it, because I never wanted to sink to his level, but I definitely see how this would work with him. I'll try it next time I play him.

Ascalam wrote:
Find another opponent. We're EVERYWHERE Failing that find a friend and teach him the game, and do it right. Play properly, and so will they, most likely.. You'll have a good deal more fun.

I just moved from a large city to a much smaller city. Where I use to live there were tons of amazing game clubs. However, there's only one store in the city I'm in now. This new store is the worst game store I've ever been in. Not only do they just stock basic infantry boxes, but the owners are terrible people. I'm surprised they can even keep their business open. I'm trying to get along with some of the gamers at the store despite everything.

Yeah even simple stuff like cutting corners can have a major impact on a game, especially when repeated constantly. I have a friend who sometimes does the drop which my gaming group makes clear is not liked in our circle. Admittedly with our group we have several who have a set of "special dice" that roll better. Though I feel that they are more akin to lucky dice instead of offering any kind of statistical advantage. Though what is considered acceptable version of a roll or measure is different from group to group and player to player. I feel an acceptable roll is one in which the dice are shaken concealed within the hand or hands and then cast instead of dropped. Scatter arrows are tricky since I know I am guilty of finding my degrees mismatch and I make sure to check myself especially when the scatter finds itself a little farther away from the point of interest than intended.

Players like Stan ruin the game and it makes it hard to remain interested when you face a cheater that will not reform and is not doing it out of ignorance of the rules. We all know someone who likes to fudge measurements are rolls a little funny on an important outcome with the best option being to avoid them like the plague especially if they seem to be such an insincere player like Stan.

We had one of those guys out here in Vegas.
He would use mixed dice from Vampire set and Nurgle set... so you could never tell if that weird symbol was a 1 or a 6. He would add an inch or two to his movement, hell he used the old red whipping stick from the GW starters just because he had heated it to make it longer. At the end we were forced to give him the Casino treatment, either you leave the store or we cut your hands off ...



I still have one of the hands....

Speaking of "lucky dice", about a year ago I was having a terrible day for rolls so I threw my dice away immediately and used Stan's dice. I instantly started to pass rolls more frequently than I would on an average/good day, and Stan remarked that he didn't care for me to use his dice. This is kind of odd seeing that we've known each other for so long, have been roommates, and we share almost everything. I would hate to think that he would buy or make his own rigged dice.

yearzero wrote:Speaking of "lucky dice", about a year ago I was having a terrible day for rolls so I threw my dice away immediately and used Stan's dice. I instantly started to pass rolls more frequently than I would on an average/good day, and Stan remarked that he didn't care for me to use his dice. This is kind of odd seeing that we've known each other for so long, have been roommates, and we share almost everything. I would hate to think that he would buy or make his own rigged dice.

^ I have this same suspicion with people that are adamant against sharing dice.

Urielliam wrote: At the end we were forced to give him the Casino treatment, either you leave the store or we cut your hands off ...

I still have one of the hands....

I actually watched Casino last night. It's one of my favs.

The sad thing about people cheating is that in Warhammer it's usually very obvious. You can't just add 2" to your move without a season veteran noticing. I can mark out 6" increments without error and count dice very quickly. It's hard to slip one past old players.

Happened to be when I started the hobby. I had few of my first games against him. Of course, I would get tabled. After I became familiar with the game, I started to realize that he subtly tries to cheat. The usual, measuring more for movement or for shooting/assault range, different direction on scatter die, or even adding wargear to squads that he probably didnt add on the list.

Personally, I am a laid back guy and not one to be anal about small things like that. After all, it is supposed to be a casual and fun game. Although, it does piss me off, but not much I can do. I usually let it go, and occasionally question a call in a friendly manner. It's rather you have to be that guy to call him out on it each time, deal with it, or just don't play with him anymore!

Ascalam wrote:Put an old metal deff-dredd model in a sock. Failing that a half-brick works..

Then belt him over the head with it.

Frankly the guys a classic cheating TFG.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. If you ever decide to play with him, just tell him straight up that you know he ALWAYS cheats. ask him if he's compensating for something
If it was me, i would be tossing some figs in a sock. I would hand him some stock dice as a "screw you" open handed slap to the face. I would give him a REAL tape measure and ban him from using whippy sticks.
Just flat out call him on always cheating or he will never change. that or he will be so butthurt that he quits the game. its a win win. frankly he needs some tough love
an unlubricated power-fisting to his ego should do the trick

I have a friend dosen't like admitting his wrong or he trys to change things about penetrating vechiles, he is kind of annoying but I explain to him he dosen't get it.

Ugh I have the same problem with both the guard players around here. They are really really liberal with how their templates scatter, swear they need glasses. It's really funny when everyone else is saying the arrow is pointing one way and he is saying otherwise.

As for the dice thing, just say he has to use the GW dice from the dice box. I have a player who brings a bag of random dice and always grabs certain ones for certain rolls, making me smell cheating based on the numbers that show.

This kid your playing will never learn unless you just stop playing with him. One aspect of the hobby I love is the sheer randomness of playing, were as some others just want to WAAC.

I understand why people cheat. I mean now and then there has been game changing saves that my opponent wasnt actually watching and I have SO wanted to just switch its side. Like when Tigurious rolled a 2 for his last wound, and there was a massive bunch of at least 20 chaos marines and a defiler in front of him. BOY did I want to vortex of doom those bastards!

But I didnt. And I still won, but only 400 points of terminator later :(

40k is very competitive, and its embarrassing watching your $1000 army get wiped. Its definitely not a good feeling. But its a part of life, and it doesnt affect anything in the end, other than bragging rights

But yeah, my advice, play someone else, and TELL him you did he will be so butthurt he wont know what to do.

I agree with the comment that you do what he does and when he complains just say "well you do it this way, so can I" and insist on doing it throughout the game. In truth it sounds to me that he won't get the hint anyway. So your options really are to either put up and shut up, or stop playing him completely.

I did also like the coment of teaching another to play properly, that way you could not only play the right way but also get a new gaming partner too allowing you to distance yourself from "Stan"

Either way its your call.

juraigamer wrote:Ugh I have the same problem with both the guard players around here. They are really really liberal with how their templates scatter, swear they need glasses. It's really funny when everyone else is saying the arrow is pointing one way and he is saying otherwise.

Two comments:
1. Scatter is a pain to do, period. Most people suck at straight lines, and if the scatter die is not RIGHT NEXT to the model, good luck moving the ruler and keeping the correct angle.
2. I usually have my opponent do the scatter just to avoid the argument. They sometimes inadvertently cheat a bit, but better them than me - as long as it's not horribly egregious, I'll let it slide.

erwos wrote:

juraigamer wrote:Ugh I have the same problem with both the guard players around here. They are really really liberal with how their templates scatter, swear they need glasses. It's really funny when everyone else is saying the arrow is pointing one way and he is saying otherwise.

Two comments:
1. Scatter is a pain to do, period. Most people suck at straight lines, and if the scatter die is not RIGHT NEXT to the model, good luck moving the ruler and keeping the correct angle.
2. I usually have my opponent do the scatter just to avoid the argument. They sometimes inadvertently cheat a bit, but better them than me - as long as it's not horribly egregious, I'll let it slide.

Oh I hear ya. I always let my opponents deal with my scatter templates, though against some people I do keep an eye on their positioning. However I have found the issue only occurs when it's their template shot, mine tend to not migrate... odd huh?

Call him on it. Tell him he needs to measure and roll dice properly or you won't play. Don't force yourself to tolderate it if you live in a small town - if you avoid playing him then he has your problem as well.

I religiously use the dice that causes the wounds, pens or glances for saves (usually is the opponents dice) to counter loaded dice. If my opponent doesn't like this - too bad. If he disallows it, then the game is pretty much over.

Don't allow him to just drop the dice or bowl them from an open hand. There is something called practice rolling; its both consious and subconsious. Sometimes just rolling from an open hand and thinking about a six, then just dropping the dice, will come up as a six. Your brain is a very complex thing and you can do this subconsiously. With practice, you can do this with proper tecnique. Just google "practiced rolling" and you will see. I can do it myself, I can roll a 6 about 50% of the time, and I can roll a hit on a scatter dice almost 80% of the time I try. To be fair I just roll with a cup or a closed hand though. Watch how your friend rolls, and make sure he rolls fair.

For scatter, its easy if you just roll the scatter dice as close to the shot location as physically possible, and encourage your opponent to do the same. Don't roll the scatter on the other side of the table.

Call him out on the melted measuring stick. Ask him to use a regular measuring tape.

If he continues to cheat, just stop playing with him. Let him know exactly why you are not playing with him anymore, and encourage others to do so. Eventually he will need to change his ways, or he won't be able to find games anymore.

I have a good friend who always got the rules wrong, in his favour. Given that he also uses Witch Hunters and they're faith abilities, it quickly got hairy. Thing like forgetting his Repentia didn't actually classify as SoB and such. Combined with having ungodly luck with dice (my dice, I should add, so I know he isn't messing with those) he's almost unbeatable. After a 2000 point game where I just got completely fed up with a list carefully tailored to nuke me, he seemed to realize that I was on the verge of not playing him anymore and stopped.

My personal favorite is when someone rolls their twin-link rerolls with the main shot, skewing the hit ratio to nearly 100%. They get away with it because people are so used to seeing this with Rapid Fire that they forget RF and TW are very different functionally.

I posted this in regard to the scatter die in a similar thread in this forum, but:

For this [scatter dice], I always do 2 things:

1.) Roll close to the thing that is scattering. If it is a blast marker, roll near it. If it is a scattering unit, roll near where I want it to land. This makes it easy to discern which way it is going.

2.) I always give my opponent a parallel on the scatter die. Lay your tape measure over the scatter die in the direction the arrow is pointing. If the tape measure that your opponent is holding is not parallel to yours, then they're moving at an illegal angle. This has helped in countless occasions. A long parallel line is much easier to measure against than is a tiny arrow (sometimes halfway across the table).

I discuss scatter with my opponent,, holding a whippy stick or tape measure to show direction.

If we can't agree i usually ask for a roll-off on a 4+ in the interest of actually getting on witht he game If i'm in a less serious mood i'll let them figure where my scatter went, and then if it's about right i'll go with it.

I sometimes get tremors in my hands due to Stupidity When Young, and will often have my opponent hold/move my blasts if they're being worse than usual. Most opponents are cool with it.

Breotan wrote:My personal favorite is when someone rolls their twin-link rerolls with the main shot, skewing the hit ratio to nearly 100%. They get away with it because people are so used to seeing this with Rapid Fire that they forget RF and TW are very different functionally.

That only affects it if it's a get's hot weapon or they're rolling for multiple shots at once. If it's a normal weapon with a single shot, then there's no difference between rolling it together and rolling separately. If it's multiple shots, however, that does greatly skew the results, as it's impossible to know which reroll belonged to which die, so you get more rerolls than you technically should have.

I really should start cheating lol

whenever I attack my opponents the response is usually along the lines of, oh jeeze I didn't realize it was possible to roll that many 1s. >_<.

Then if god forbid I have to roll for leadership I of course get boxcars. Invariably.

The owner of the GW store I go to keeps telling me to buy new dice...

Breotan wrote:My personal favorite is when someone rolls their twin-link rerolls with the main shot, skewing the hit ratio to nearly 100%. They get away with it because people are so used to seeing this with Rapid Fire that they forget RF and TW are very different functionally.

How does this skew the results? Are you talking about a multi-shot weapon? I can certainly understand the cheat if I am rolling six dice of the same color for a twin linked heavy bolter, but with a twin linked lascannon there should be no statistical weirdness rolling both dice at once. If I have a Vendetta for example, I simply roll three pairs of dice, each pair a different color. Speeds up the game.

Like you, I also have a friend whom cheated and also was one which got me into the game.

His cheating can be excused because in actuality, he didn't know how to use a tape measure and thought that the space in between the 1" mark and the metal tab wasn't supposed to be counted

Found out a friend of mine had dice with 2 sixes on them, and a D20 with two 20's. (DnD not warhammer but same idea). Excommunicated him and exicuted his dice. I recomend both, it gets the point across clearly.

As I was looking through a stack of dice I had (From the cessex scoop of dice at GenCon), I found one miss cast that had two 3's and no 2. I totally didn't know it was like that. No telling how many times I had used it. I took it out of my rotation, but kept it because it's freaking cool.

I no longer use any of those chessex dice. But just having a miscast doesn't necessarily mean cheating.

epil wrote:Found out a friend of mine had dice with 2 sixes on them, and a D20 with two 20's. (DnD not warhammer but same idea). Excommunicated him and exicuted his dice. I recomend both, it gets the point across clearly.

The rules never clarify what a "six-sided die" is. It could have 6s on every side or have 6 sides with whatever numbers someone likes.

Has anyone noticed that the scatter dice from AoBR rolls a hit more times than statistics say it should? We have a ban on that particular die in my club.

I rolled it 100 times, and a hit came up twice as often as it should have (30 as opposed to 16). The others were spread evenly-ish.

papathrax wrote:Has anyone noticed that the scatter dice from AoBR rolls a hit more times than statistics say it should? We have a ban on that particular die in my club.

I rolled it 100 times, and a hit came up twice as often as it should have (30 as opposed to 16). The others were spread evenly-ish.

I've noticed I roll higher with my GW white dice from the sets than with dice from random bricks I've purchased