Making Orks Competitive- Gather the Council, Prepare to Waaagh!

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**Glitcha**

koooaei wrote:
I'm not sure if objective secured works when inside a transport. Cause the unit is not on board. At least the auras don't work that way unless specified.

And yep, the guy utilised a stompa with a misprinted point cost 'non-big gunz'.

Good point. Worth doing some research to see. I'll admit I've utilized the stompa with the misprinted point cost a couple of times. That load out is not my favorite. So I usually us the Kustom Stompa.

**Saythings**

ObSec in a transport works. It's in the 7th ed BRB somewhere. If ITC allows the discounted Stompa, as an ork player, you might as well use it.

As for the Big Guns vs Mek Guns argument, it's pretty straight forward as for RAI - the Ork artillery got a name change but are still the same unit. But RAW - they banned Big Guns in Zhad's army. They aren't the same name so the list is legal for tournament purposes. That being said, I could see it being ruled either way.

I mean let's be honest, if you are complaining about Zhadsnark and Mek Guns being in a list together and not Eldar/Riptide Wing, you have your priorities backwards. Hahahahha.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Glitcha wrote:
Well LVO (Las Vegas Open) was this past weekend and I had some time to sit down and catch couple of the games. One of the games was Orks vs admech. Ork player was running a really punchy list. From what I gather from the video his list was:

Zhadsnark
Big mek in mega armor

2 units of grots
1 unit of bikes

2 full units of mek gun (KMK)

Big mek stompa (buzzgob) or Kustom stompa?

Void shield generator

First, congrats to this guy. He managed to pull of a win. Second personally i'm not sold on his list. There is an issue with Zhadsnark and Mek gunz. Accord to Zhadsnark's rules, you can not have deff dread, kill kans, or big guns in your army. This rule was never updated when the new codex came out and big guns were renamed to Mek gunz. Personally, I've gone with that a Mek gun and big guns are the same unit. I'm sure the lists had to go through some approval process before hand, but it just seems like a gray area that could be argued.

Third, strategy. Since Objective secured is so huge for tournament play and the taking/ hold kind of objective play. This crafty git put a unit of grots in his stompa. Now you might be thinking why do that? Well now you got an Objective secured stompa running around on the table. It becomes a great objective holder.

As per that game... Ob-sec only matters if your opponent isn't on the panic back-foot all game long as they were here.

The Buzzgob Stompa and Bikes had that entire army retreating all game long, so they easily won primary and secondary objectives. It was a very impressive list thanks to the ITC essentially making that awesome Stompa 300-400pts cheaper than it should be. :-p

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW... out of curiosity, has anyone math-hammered who is better off leading a Bike unit? Zhadsnark get's 2+ Jink (right? Skilled Rider + the boost from Turbo Boosting), but a Warboss with Da Lucky Stick has a 3+, and the re-roll shenanigans, plus is still cheaper.

**Glitcha**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
Well LVO (Las Vegas Open) was this past weekend and I had some time to sit down and catch couple of the games. One of the games was Orks vs admech. Ork player was running a really punchy list. From what I gather from the video his list was:

Zhadsnark
Big mek in mega armor

2 units of grots
1 unit of bikes

2 full units of mek gun (KMK)

Big mek stompa (buzzgob) or Kustom stompa?

Void shield generator

First, congrats to this guy. He managed to pull of a win. Second personally i'm not sold on his list. There is an issue with Zhadsnark and Mek gunz. Accord to Zhadsnark's rules, you can not have deff dread, kill kans, or big guns in your army. This rule was never updated when the new codex came out and big guns were renamed to Mek gunz. Personally, I've gone with that a Mek gun and big guns are the same unit. I'm sure the lists had to go through some approval process before hand, but it just seems like a gray area that could be argued.

Third, strategy. Since Objective secured is so huge for tournament play and the taking/ hold kind of objective play. This crafty git put a unit of grots in his stompa. Now you might be thinking why do that? Well now you got an Objective secured stompa running around on the table. It becomes a great objective holder.

As per that game... Ob-sec only matters if your opponent isn't on the panic back-foot all game long as they were here.

The Buzzgob Stompa and Bikes had that entire army retreating all game long, so they easily won primary and secondary objectives. It was a very impressive list thanks to the ITC essentially making that awesome Stompa 300-400pts cheaper than it should be. :-p

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW... out of curiosity, has anyone math-hammered who is better off leading a Bike unit? Zhadsnark get's 2+ Jink (right? Skilled Rider + the boost from Turbo Boosting), but a Warboss with Da Lucky Stick has a 3+, and the re-roll shenanigans, plus is still cheaper.

No real math hammer, but because zhadsnarks ability applies to the whole squad he is with and warboss with da lucky stick does not. I'd take Zhadnsark. Or...take both.

**Cleatus**

Does ObSec in a transport still work? The recent FAQ says that a unit embarking on a vehicle is taken off the battlefield:

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf)

Thoughts?

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Cleatus wrote:
Does ObSec in a transport still work? The recent FAQ says that a unit embarking on a vehicle is taken off the battlefield:

Q: I have a question regarding unit special rules that affect all or some units within a certain range of a model or unit. How do these interact with units inside Transports, and what happens if the unit with the rule is inside a Transport?
A: When a unit embarks on a vehicle it is taken off the battlefield and does not interact with anything on the battlefield. However, certain rules may create exceptions to this rule, with the most obvious examples being Fire Points, psychic powers and Transports. If a unit’s rules are meant to apply even when embarked on a Transport, they will specify this.

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf)

Thoughts?

Depends on if they are dedicated transports of Ob-Sec units, partly... right? I mean DT of ob-sec units are themselves ob-sec, which by-passes the debate entirely.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a question on behalf of my wife. Do Ork competitive players ever dabble with Desperate Allies who like to play at different ranges, thus getting around the penalty?

IE... why an investment in so many Mek Guns, etc... and not a Riptide Wing... other than assassination of fluff? :-p

**Glitcha**

I've taken some helldrakes in my orks before. That was a funny one.

**Anvildude**

I feel like it's for the same reason they don't do Unbound that often- rigidity of thought.

Also, why take a second faction, when you could just take Orktide Wings and other Looted stuff? Most of the time, people just model looted orky stuff as 'counts as' for other armies. Because Orks.

**koooaei**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Depends on if they are dedicated transports of Ob-Sec units, partly... right? I mean DT of ob-sec units are themselves ob-sec, which by-passes the debate entirely.

The stompa is a DT to big mek only. And he only has obsec when he's a warlord.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Here's a question on behalf of my wife. Do Ork competitive players ever dabble with Desperate Allies who like to play at different ranges, thus getting around the penalty?

IE... why an investment in so many Mek Guns, etc... and not a Riptide Wing... other than assassination of fluff? :-p

Part of the reason is that grot gunz are cheaper, you don't need to take a minimum of 520 pts of them, they don't need further investment in markerlights and don't get deleted by grav which is extremely common.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

koooaei wrote:

Part of the reason is that grot gunz are cheaper, you don't need to take a minimum of 520 pts of them, they don't need further investment in markerlights and don't get deleted by grav which is extremely common.

If they were that bad of an investment of 520pts... you wouldn't see them at half the tables at LVO. :-p Mobility, Marker-light semi-independence, and extremely hard to kill outside of Grav. :-p

**SemperMortis**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
koooaei wrote:

Part of the reason is that grot gunz are cheaper, you don't need to take a minimum of 520 pts of them, they don't need further investment in markerlights and don't get deleted by grav which is extremely common.

If they were that bad of an investment of 520pts... you wouldn't see them at half the tables at LVO. :-p Mobility, Marker-light semi-independence, and extremely hard to kill outside of Grav. :-p

They also have twice the range of the Mek gunz for the most part. Not to mention being harder to kill vs almost everything else except grav. T7 is good, but unless they are in cover your grots have NO SAVE and they can get burned out pretty quickly by a single unit of Scat bikes or a well placed Large blast weapon. Nah, Riptide wings are superior almost across the board. Also Mek gunz are useless if you don't upgrade them to something, IE KMKs, And thats another 12pts plus the extra grot crew so 15pts. So, still relatively cheap, but your now up to 32pts a model for a single S8AP2 small blast that over heats.

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Well, my wife doesn't have a Dakka account, but i'll post her findings as she stole my three Riptides, to Orkify them... all I know is, I saw pink paint and glitter... so i'm devastated. :-p

**Voidraven5829**

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, my wife doesn't have a Dakka account, but i'll post her findings as she stole my three Riptides, to Orkify them... all I know is, I saw pink paint and glitter... so i'm devastated. :-p

Have her get a box of killa kans for kustomizin' the riptides! Theres a ton of awesome bits to use for them!

Here are my two Ork-tides. I've even gotten to the point with looted crisis suits that i could run a legit farsight army with looted Tau

**Anpu-adom**

I think I've found my Mega Dread!

**gnome_idea_what**

Those are cool!

**Voidraven5829**

gnome_idea_what wrote:
Those are cool!

Thank you, and thank you, anpu-adom (haven't figured out multi quote on phone)! I've tried to put a lot of heart into my Orks by incorporating as many armies from my play group as possible and coming up with stories with everyone on how my Orks got ahold of all the junk.
So far i have 2 eldar falcons, a ghost ark, a carnifex that's dragging a wagon, a trukk with the rear end of a leman russ used as the front armor, and as of today, a Dark Eldar raider! On top of my 6 'Krisis Soots', 2 Ork-Tides, 10 gargoyles chained to unfortunate boys as stormboys, and 10 drone riding storm boys!
Sorry about the off topic, i just like sharing.

**Anpu-adom**

Drone riding stormboyz... That may just get done.
I've made a Kustum Meka Dread out of a Nemesis Dreadknight. Not sure if I'll go with a Riptide or a Ghostkeel... but either way, those drones are going to be saved from some stormboyz...

**PipeAlley**

Tried out the Quintuple CAD list last night. Check it out:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717527.page

**Ashkayel**

PipeAlley wrote:
Tried out the Quintuple CAD list last night. Check it out:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717527.page

This needs more discussion! I love the idea! Was it already discussed earlier in this massive thread?

Obviously I think some support would be needed (mek gunz, lootas, koptas, etc.) to balance the list a bit.

**SemperMortis**

Ashkayel wrote:
PipeAlley wrote:
Tried out the Quintuple CAD list last night. Check it out:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717527.page

This needs mode discussion! I love the idea! Was it already discussed earlier in this massive thread?

Obviously I think some support would be needed (mek gunz, lootas, koptas, etc.) to balance the list a bit.

It, like almost every Ork build, is a gimmick. Against a foe who has never faced it, or whose list is completely ill prepared for this it works wonderfully. Against competitive armies.....its a Turn 2 fail.

For starters if the IG player had gotten 1st turn that entire battle gets flipped on its head simply because a Leman Russ can pretty reliably kill a trukk depending on side sponsons and what not. But for starters its main Cannon Rolls 2D6 to pen and needs a 3 to penetrate an Ork Trukk. Your opponent had 2 of them so he reliably had 2 Penetrating hits on 1-2 Trukkz, throw in the Heavy bolter shots that are snap firing and those 2 Tanks reliably kill 1 Trukk (NOT COST EFFICIENT) The Vanquishers though....they are killing a Trukk easily S8 AP2 Armorbane. Then Pask shoots with split fire from his Destroyer and Pask will reliably kill 1 Trukk with the Punisher Cannon and He then has 9 S5 BS4 Heavy bolter shots into a 2nd trukk. 6 hits and add in rending so.... probably another dead Trukk. The Demolisher is weird, because its probably going to hit, its auto-penetrating so it becomes a 1/3 chance to explode (AP2 + Open Topped) so lets say it helps another unit finish off a Trukk. Now I don't know what your opponent had in his Vet squads, but the Chimera's probably had a multi-laser and a heavy bolter minimum, he might have changed the weapons around but meh whatever. if 2 chimera's target the same Trukk thats 6 S6 shots and 6 S5 shots at BS3 per Trukk which means 3 S6 hits and 3 S6 hits. Those 6s will pen/glance 1.5 times and the Heavy Bolters will do 1 more, so reliably 1 dead Trukk maybe 2. Hellhound would probably run up the field and flame any survivors but could Glance/pen a trukk 1/2 the time.

So turn 1 you opponent would have RELIABLY killed 5 Trukkz and depending on lucky rolls, maybe 1-2 more. You just went from 100boyz rushing up the field to 50, AND depending on explodes results, those other 50 might be severely decimated. Add in the fact that they would have to take a Pinning Test and you are in trouble. Best part for your opponent? He now gets 1 more full turn to FETH UP YOUR TRUKKZ! AND Who knows what those veterans were equipped with, if they had any Melta weapons then the math really changes.

Nah this list is to gimmicky to be worth taking in anything but friendly games.

**Vankraken**

SemperMortis wrote:
Ashkayel wrote:
PipeAlley wrote:
Tried out the Quintuple CAD list last night. Check it out:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717527.page

This needs mode discussion! I love the idea! Was it already discussed earlier in this massive thread?

Obviously I think some support would be needed (mek gunz, lootas, koptas, etc.) to balance the list a bit.

It, like almost every Ork build, is a gimmick. Against a foe who has never faced it, or whose list is completely ill prepared for this it works wonderfully. Against competitive armies.....its a Turn 2 fail.

For starters if the IG player had gotten 1st turn that entire battle gets flipped on its head simply because a Leman Russ can pretty reliably kill a trukk depending on side sponsons and what not. But for starters its main Cannon Rolls 2D6 to pen and needs a 3 to penetrate an Ork Trukk. Your opponent had 2 of them so he reliably had 2 Penetrating hits on 1-2 Trukkz, throw in the Heavy bolter shots that are snap firing and those 2 Tanks reliably kill 1 Trukk (NOT COST EFFICIENT) The Vanquishers though....they are killing a Trukk easily S8 AP2 Armorbane. Then Pask shoots with split fire from his Destroyer and Pask will reliably kill 1 Trukk with the Punisher Cannon and He then has 9 S5 BS4 Heavy bolter shots into a 2nd trukk. 6 hits and add in rending so.... probably another dead Trukk. The Demolisher is weird, because its probably going to hit, its auto-penetrating so it becomes a 1/3 chance to explode (AP2 + Open Topped) so lets say it helps another unit finish off a Trukk. Now I don't know what your opponent had in his Vet squads, but the Chimera's probably had a multi-laser and a heavy bolter minimum, he might have changed the weapons around but meh whatever. if 2 chimera's target the same Trukk thats 6 S6 shots and 6 S5 shots at BS3 per Trukk which means 3 S6 hits and 3 S6 hits. Those 6s will pen/glance 1.5 times and the Heavy Bolters will do 1 more, so reliably 1 dead Trukk maybe 2. Hellhound would probably run up the field and flame any survivors but could Glance/pen a trukk 1/2 the time.

So turn 1 you opponent would have RELIABLY killed 5 Trukkz and depending on lucky rolls, maybe 1-2 more. You just went from 100boyz rushing up the field to 50, AND depending on explodes results, those other 50 might be severely decimated. Add in the fact that they would have to take a Pinning Test and you are in trouble. Best part for your opponent? He now gets 1 more full turn to FETH UP YOUR TRUKKZ! AND Who knows what those veterans were equipped with, if they had any Melta weapons then the math really changes.

Nah this list is to gimmicky to be worth taking in anything but friendly games.

Maybe on planet bowling ball but any sensible table has good cover on it which will greatly diminish the damage done to the trukks. Also with every unit having a MAW giving leadership 9 and Slow + Purposeful making it so they can't be pinned and generally pass leadership just fine (if the boss is tanking the wounds then they become quite durable). Anyways this list could very easily be modified to drop a trukk squad (drop a CAD, change another to be an Ork Horde Detachment for 3 HQs and 3 Troops), add a Void Shield Generator, and give the Warlord a Lucky Stikk for extra durability. Ork lists tend to be a bit "gimmicky" because the base codex is weak while Orks have decent potential at utilizing all in type strategies that work against a fair amount of stuff but have obvious hard counters. The general strategy lists like Zhadsnark biker lists, Bully Boyz, and Tankbustas are very well established mid tier lists and nothing much has changed for the Orks to shake up the general purpose Ork meta. What can work is the off balanced lists that try to exploit trends in the meta or throwing in the odd ball configurations that people aren't expecting or have equally off balanced loadouts to deal with.

**PipeAlley**

Vankraken wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Ashkayel wrote:
PipeAlley wrote:
Tried out the Quintuple CAD list last night. Check it out:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717527.page

This needs mode discussion! I love the idea! Was it already discussed earlier in this massive thread?

Obviously I think some support would be needed (mek gunz, lootas, koptas, etc.) to balance the list a bit.

It, like almost every Ork build, is a gimmick. Against a foe who has never faced it, or whose list is completely ill prepared for this it works wonderfully. Against competitive armies.....its a Turn 2 fail.

For starters if the IG player had gotten 1st turn that entire battle gets flipped on its head simply because a Leman Russ can pretty reliably kill a trukk depending on side sponsons and what not. But for starters its main Cannon Rolls 2D6 to pen and needs a 3 to penetrate an Ork Trukk. Your opponent had 2 of them so he reliably had 2 Penetrating hits on 1-2 Trukkz, throw in the Heavy bolter shots that are snap firing and those 2 Tanks reliably kill 1 Trukk (NOT COST EFFICIENT) The Vanquishers though....they are killing a Trukk easily S8 AP2 Armorbane. Then Pask shoots with split fire from his Destroyer and Pask will reliably kill 1 Trukk with the Punisher Cannon and He then has 9 S5 BS4 Heavy bolter shots into a 2nd trukk. 6 hits and add in rending so.... probably another dead Trukk. The Demolisher is weird, because its probably going to hit, its auto-penetrating so it becomes a 1/3 chance to explode (AP2 + Open Topped) so lets say it helps another unit finish off a Trukk. Now I don't know what your opponent had in his Vet squads, but the Chimera's probably had a multi-laser and a heavy bolter minimum, he might have changed the weapons around but meh whatever. if 2 chimera's target the same Trukk thats 6 S6 shots and 6 S5 shots at BS3 per Trukk which means 3 S6 hits and 3 S6 hits. Those 6s will pen/glance 1.5 times and the Heavy Bolters will do 1 more, so reliably 1 dead Trukk maybe 2. Hellhound would probably run up the field and flame any survivors but could Glance/pen a trukk 1/2 the time.

So turn 1 you opponent would have RELIABLY killed 5 Trukkz and depending on lucky rolls, maybe 1-2 more. You just went from 100boyz rushing up the field to 50, AND depending on explodes results, those other 50 might be severely decimated. Add in the fact that they would have to take a Pinning Test and you are in trouble. Best part for your opponent? He now gets 1 more full turn to FETH UP YOUR TRUKKZ! AND Who knows what those veterans were equipped with, if they had any Melta weapons then the math really changes.

Nah this list is to gimmicky to be worth taking in anything but friendly games.

Maybe on planet bowling ball but any sensible table has good cover on it which will greatly diminish the damage done to the trukks. Also with every unit having a MAW giving leadership 9 and Slow + Purposeful making it so they can't be pinned and generally pass leadership just fine (if the boss is tanking the wounds then they become quite durable). Anyways this list could very easily be modified to drop a trukk squad (drop a CAD, change another to be an Ork Horde Detachment for 3 HQs and 3 Troops), add a Void Shield Generator, and give the Warlord a Lucky Stikk for extra durability. Ork lists tend to be a bit "gimmicky" because the base codex is weak while Orks have decent potential at utilizing all in type strategies that work against a fair amount of stuff but have obvious hard counters. The general strategy lists like Zhadsnark biker lists, Bully Boyz, and Tankbustas are very well established mid tier lists and nothing much has changed for the Orks to shake up the general purpose Ork meta. What can work is the off balanced lists that try to exploit trends in the meta or throwing in the odd ball configurations that people aren't expecting or have equally off balanced loadouts to deal with.

I'd be happy to ask the opponent for an exact rematch and give him turn one but as you mentioned, there was plenty of 4+ cover in my deployment zone and we happened to have Night Fighting. The problem with his Squadrons is that I have too many targets. He got to fire everything he had at my entire army 1" away and only destroyed Two Trukks and immobilized a third.

So I do appreciate the first persons Mathhammer but cover, scatter, and Ramshackle I think I'd lose three Trukks first turn.

So that's three units holding my back objectives. Seven Trukks make it to his line and the results would eventually be the same.

I repeat: this list was a goof that was hella fun to play and would lose to most competitive lists in a heartbeat but it really opened my eyes. Just imagine getting five of these Trukks into anyone's deployment zone. Ditching beat down mobs and being able to absorb Overwatch, etc.

It has its strengths, don't knock it till you try it.

**slip**

I find on average when cover, range, and statistical variability 3 trukks per turn is a pretty average expectation. Higher end Eldar and Tau lists can hit higher but at that point you should be playing with reserves so the average should settle back down to three per turn.

You should try some non MA warbosses maybe. That way you can get your boyz to waaagh turn two for just that extra distance for armies that line up along the back of their deployment zone or in the corners.

Yeah, you may lose some trukks and some boyz, but how many powerklaws die turn one? Probably not that many. Regular boyz are like pawns in a chess game or a lizard that can shed its whole tail.

AM anti-armour techniques are mostly wasted on orks. Whereas vs SM we have to worry about basic bolters, AM infatry cannot hurt turkks with their basic weapons, leaving that exclusively to their anti tank weapons like lascannons, melta, or plasma.While they do get a chance to explode trukks they are massively expensive to be dealing one HP a turn to trukks. It's inefficient. Trukks hard counter melta especially, which relies on drop podding, deep striking, or some other delivery system that while affecting ork mobility, effectively deliver them into the teeth of the meatgrinder, negating the need for that mobility in the first place. Really, there's a 1/4 chance to explode the trukk at best so banking on that to happen just because it can happen is not a good bet.

If I could change the list it would be

2X CAD
2x MABP Warboss, 2x kombi Skorcha, 1x DLS, 1x DFK -255
2x 9 Slugga boyz, nob, bc, trukk, rr, -210
10x 9 slugga boyz, nob, pk, bp, trukk, rr -135
6x 1 Deffkopta

DLS and Skorcha is a crazy good combo. Auto hit reroll to wound? Ya def. This focuses less on HQ, more emphasis on target saturation. Two more trukks, fewer S10 pks in favour of greater numbers of S9. A S9 PK is like half the point cost of a S10, not that there isn't times where only S10 will do, but you have both and more pks overall. Koptas are perfect saturation compliments. They have scout, and DFK will allow you to potentially infiltrate some trukks too among other things. It also allows you to waaagh, which your list can't with a S&P MA boss in every unit. This gives you a turn two charge radius of 24+12+3d6(+rerolls.) for an average of 47-50". Which is important because 50" is the distance from the front of your deployment zone to the back edge deployment from mid board, and really helps getting to the back corner in vanguard. Makes all the distance in certain games.

I like your list a lot, I wouldn't even recommend changing it really, but if I were to do a similar list that's what it would look like.

**PipeAlley**

slip wrote:
I find on average when cover, range, and statistical variability 3 trukks per turn is a pretty average expectation. Higher end Eldar and Tau lists can hit higher but at that point you should be playing with reserves so the average should settle back down to three per turn.

You should try some non MA warbosses maybe. That way you can get your boyz to waaagh turn two for just that extra distance for armies that line up along the back of their deployment zone or in the corners.

Yeah, you may lose some trukks and some boyz, but how many powerklaws die turn one? Probably not that many. Regular boyz are like pawns in a chess game or a lizard that can shed its whole tail.

AM anti-armour techniques are mostly wasted on orks. Whereas vs SM we have to worry about basic bolters, AM infatry cannot hurt turkks with their basic weapons, leaving that exclusively to their anti tank weapons like lascannons, melta, or plasma.While they do get a chance to explode trukks they are massively expensive to be dealing one HP a turn to trukks. It's inefficient. Trukks hard counter melta especially, which relies on drop podding, deep striking, or some other delivery system that while affecting ork mobility, effectively deliver them into the teeth of the meatgrinder, negating the need for that mobility in the first place. Really, there's a 1/4 chance to explode the trukk at best so banking on that to happen just because it can happen is not a good bet.

If I could change the list it would be

2X CAD
2x MABP Warboss, 2x kombi Skorcha, 1x DLS, 1x DFK -255
2x 9 Slugga boyz, nob, bc, trukk, rr, -210
10x 9 slugga boyz, nob, pk, bp, trukk, rr -135
6x 1 Deffkopta

DLS and Skorcha is a crazy good combo. Auto hit reroll to wound? Ya def. This focuses less on HQ, more emphasis on target saturation. Two more trukks, fewer S10 pks in favour of greater numbers of S9. A S9 PK is like half the point cost of a S10, not that there isn't times where only S10 will do, but you have both and more pks overall. Koptas are perfect saturation compliments. They have scout, and DFK will allow you to potentially infiltrate some trukks too among other things. It also allows you to waaagh, which your list can't with a S&P MA boss in every unit. This gives you a turn two charge radius of 24+12+3d6(+rerolls.) for an average of 47-50". Which is important because 50" is the distance from the front of your deployment zone to the back edge deployment from mid board, and really helps getting to the back corner in vanguard. Makes all the distance in certain games.

I like your list a lot, I wouldn't even recommend changing it really, but if I were to do a similar list that's what it would look like.

Love your lizard tail metaphor. I could halvsies on MAWB and Regular with Eavy Armor, PK, DLS, other toys. The Bosses can jump around as Trukks explode. Maybe 5 Trukks with MAWB up Front, and behind them the EA Bosses. Or the other way around. I'm not too worried about back of opponents deployment zone since Orks still have regular move and reroll charge for that final bit. No Waaagh Necessary.

Love more Trukks as well as distractions. I'll look into it.

**Ashkayel**

Great discussion!

I like symetry!!!

6x MAWB w/ BP, Warlord w/ DFK
6x 10 boyz w/ Trukk RR
6x Lone Kopta
6x Lone Kannon

=1498 pts

**koooaei**

And like with every trukkspam list - VSG and cover ftw.

**PipeAlley**

Ashkayel wrote:
Great discussion!

I like symetry!!!

6x MAWB w/ BP, Warlord w/ DFK
6x 10 boyz w/ Trukk RR
6x Lone Kopta
6x Lone Kannon

=1498 pts

I love the single Koptas and Single Kannonz! Think of all the harassment!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
And like with every trukkspam list - VSG and cover ftw.

Whenever I Mathhammer I assume the opponent has perfect miracle cover and my cover is situational: call me a pessimist but against Tau and Eldar, its best to assume the worst. I'll have to look into the VSG. Or just start all the Trukks on a Landing Pad and leap off Dukes of Hazzard style the first turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized that the Deffkoptas can be mobile cover for the Trukks: deploy the Trukks on the line, Scout the Koptas in front, easily obscuring the Trukks by having them sideways, move in Tandem, Jink with Koptas, 5++ Cover for Trukks!!

**KommissarKiln**

Hey, with my expanding collection of Orks, I was hoping to soon be able to start playing games with them. Currently, I can really only do Kill Team, and I would use a list like this:
-10 Grots + Runtherd
-10 Boyz + big shoota + klaw Nob
-2 Deffkoptas using TL Rokkits (OR 1 Deffkopta and a Trukk)
~195 points

When I start expanding my Ork collection, I hope to have an army looking roughly like this:
-MA warboss with klaw and lucky stikk with MANZ in a battlewagon (I'd probably convert regular Nobz for the MANZ)
-Several units of Trukk Boyz with klaw Nobz
-1 or 2 gretchin units
-Bikers with a klaw Nob and a Painboy
-Deffkoptas (currently have 3, is this enough?)
No idea what kind of points cost I'd be looking at there

I am hardly knowledgable about Ork tactics (hence asking on this thread), so any feedback about whether I'm moving in the right direction would be great. Thanks!

**Blackie**

KommissarKiln wrote:
Hey, with my expanding collection of Orks, I was hoping to soon be able to start playing games with them. Currently, I can really only do Kill Team, and I would use a list like this:
-10 Grots + Runtherd
-10 Boyz + big shoota + klaw Nob
-2 Deffkoptas using TL Rokkits (OR 1 Deffkopta and a Trukk)
~195 points

When I start expanding my Ork collection, I hope to have an army looking roughly like this:
-MA warboss with klaw and lucky stikk with MANZ in a battlewagon (I'd probably convert regular Nobz for the MANZ)
-Several units of Trukk Boyz with klaw Nobz
-1 or 2 gretchin units
-Bikers with a klaw Nob and a Painboy
-Deffkoptas (currently have 3, is this enough?)
No idea what kind of points cost I'd be looking at there

I am hardly knowledgable about Ork tactics (hence asking on this thread), so any feedback about whether I'm moving in the right direction would be great. Thanks!

With those units you can be around 1000-1500 points.... about deffkoptas they're really worthy in solo units so unless you're planning to go double CAD three of them are certainly enough, I suggest you to invest in something else.

**Ashkayel**

PipeAlley wrote:
Ashkayel wrote:
Great discussion!

I like symetry!!!

6x MAWB w/ BP, Warlord w/ DFK
6x 10 boyz w/ Trukk RR
6x Lone Kopta
6x Lone Kannon

=1498 pts

I love the single Koptas and Single Kannonz! Think of all the harassment!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
And like with every trukkspam list - VSG and cover ftw.

Whenever I Mathhammer I assume the opponent has perfect miracle cover and my cover is situational: call me a pessimist but against Tau and Eldar, its best to assume the worst. I'll have to look into the VSG. Or just start all the Trukks on a Landing Pad and leap off Dukes of Hazzard style the first turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just realized that the Deffkoptas can be mobile cover for the Trukks: deploy the Trukks on the line, Scout the Koptas in front, easily obscuring the Trukks by having them sideways, move in Tandem, Jink with Koptas, 5++ Cover for Trukks!!

Yep, single kannons in ruins are awesome! Pretty solid for 18 pts!

Yeah I always use my koptas for cover for trukks or BW if need be, they are pretty awesome!