Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a single wound model with FNP. He was shot by a squad and I had 10 armor saves to make. Due to bad luck I failed 3 saves, which means 3 wounds was placed on my single wound model. Since I only had 1 wound, only 1 wound was caused so I only need to make one Feel No Pain roll correct?

jbunny wrote:I have a single wound model with FNP. He was shot by a squad and I had 10 armor saves to make. Due to bad luck I failed 3 saves, which means 3 wounds was placed on my single wound model. Since I only had 1 wound, only 1 wound was caused so I only need to make one Feel No Pain roll correct?

You make a FNP roll for EACH failed armor save.

That's an interesting point. It's actually "each unsaved wound" but if you only have 1 wound you can only take one wound. I'll have to find the part about the only able to take 1 wound and see how it's written.

No, it's pretty cut and dry. You take x hits, those hits inflict y wounds, and of those wounds, z are unsaved. There's no debate in the issue.

Look at it this way, if your single wound model took 3 unsaved wounds, what would the point of rolling a single FNP be?

Fafnir has it spot on.
Series of events: Declare shooting>check los/range>Figure cover>roll to hit>roll to wound>roll to save>Last ditch efforts to survive>if the number of unsaved wounds are greater than total wounds, the model is a casualty.
You would need to make 3 feel no pain attempts.
There's no precedent that allows to finagle your way out of it, but you can argue till you're opponent is blue is the face and then say "just 4+ it?"

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote: Declare shooting>check los/range>Figure cover>roll to hit>roll to wound>roll to save>Last ditch efforts to survive>

are you high ?

very. it's a saturday night.

Hallowed_Da'Credo wrote:very. it's a saturday night.

Sunday morning here. I speak to you from the futuuure....

Fafnir wrote:No, it's pretty cut and dry. You take x hits, those hits inflict y wounds, and of those wounds, z are unsaved. There's no debate in the issue.

Actually this is a debate on it. Please see this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/353828.page




Automatically Appended Next Post:

UltraPrime wrote:Look at it this way, if your single wound model took 3 unsaved wounds, what would the point of rolling a single FNP be?

The point is, and the argument is that a single would model can only fail 1 save as that is the only number of wounds he has. While 3 dice did not roll high enough to pass an armor save, I only failed 1 save as that is all I have to lose. So I only have to make 1 FNP roll as I only failed one armor save.

No as said in the OP he took 3 failed saves. Which means 3 feel no pain rolls. So could I have a 1 wound model and get wounded 6 times but because i only have 1 wound i would only have to roll 1 armour save? Not feel no pain but its still a save that has to be rolled for every wound...

For each failed armour save you can make a FNP roll (unless it removes FNP)

Now, if its a single wound model then you must still roll each FNP, even if its 10 unsaved wounds.
Rolling 1 dice for multiple wounds would change the outcome, and bring it back to 50% survival, rather than, say 10%

Roll seperate for each one.

You clever bastard you. Either way this is a win for BA players HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA.

The tie in with the blood talons debate.. very nice. Check out the other post I believe was linked above for the other side gents

mpangelu wrote:You clever bastard you. Either way this is a win for BA players HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA.

The tie in with the blood talons debate.. very nice. Check out the other post I believe was linked above for the other side gents

That's right, you can't have it both ways.

I did notice that after you mentioned that on the other one.. NO one mentioned it

You have to make 3 FnP saves.


because your model only has 1 wound, he has to pass all 3 to survive as 1 failed wound will kill him.

Grey, I completely agree with you. I posted this to show the how people in another thread are wrong.

Then why didn't you post in that thread?

He did, no one answered his question on it, because they were too busy shouting about how it works, but if it works that way then FNP works this way.

your all discussing the wrong thing. It has nothing to do with armour saves. It's...when does the 3 hits become one wound. A one wound model can only take one wound. Lets say he was hit with an AP 3 weapon that ignores his armour saves. He 10 wounds are inflicted but he only has 1 to take.

The 3 unsaved wounds (not hits vox) Are all wounds that would need to be stopped by FNP.
The fact he has 1 wound has no bearing on it, he must still make a FNP roll against all of them.
Each one he fails means he loses a wound, and since he only has 1 to start with, he must pass all 3 to live.

May be overkill, but thats life.

Just to chime in here to explain the other half of the debate in the other thread:

The scenario is this:

A dreadnought with Blood Talons is locked in combat with one unit of 3 models, and another unit of a size we dont care about for now. The argument that jbunny is incorrectly making, is that if this dreadnought scores 5 wounds on the unit of 3 (assume they are single wound for simplicity), this then entitles the dreadnought to make a further FIVE attacks on the ither unit.

My argument is that you have inflicted (and allocated) 5 wounds, but have only caused 3 unsaved wounds (which is the trigger for blood talons). Therefore you only should get a further three attacks on the other unit.

I honestly don't know why they needed to discuss FNP, as I think the rule is fairly clear.

in this situation Armor and FnP saves a moot because Bloodtalons allow neither.

Grey Templar wrote:in this situation Armor and FnP saves a moot because Bloodtalons allow neither.

It's not about Feel No Pain in and of itself, but a case of how a model can suffer more unsaved wounds than it has wounds on it's profile.

liam0404 wrote:
A dreadnought with Blood Talons is locked in combat with one unit of 3 models, and another unit of a size we dont care about for now. The argument that jbunny is incorrectly making, is that if this dreadnought scores 5 wounds on the unit of 3 (assume they are single wound for simplicity), this then entitles the dreadnought to make a further FIVE attacks on the ither unit.

My argument is that you have inflicted (and allocated) 5 wounds, but have only caused 3 unsaved wounds (which is the trigger for blood talons). Therefore you only should get a further three attacks on the other unit.

And to clarify the other side of this argument, the outcome would be-
Dreadnaught rolls 5 attacks and scores 5 hits.
Dreadnaught rolls 5 'to wounds' and scores 5 wounds.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models allocates 5 wounds.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models attempts armour saves- bad news, power weapons.
Target unit of 3 single-wound models suffers 5 unsaved wounds. ("For every model that fails it's save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound")
Target unit of 3 single-wound models removes it's casualties, inflicting 3 wounds.
Blood Talons check how many unsaved wounds were caused.
Blood Talons generate 5 more attacks.

Blood Talons don't work on inflicted wounds, they work on unsaved wounds, which are defined clearly and seperately from wounds inflicted.

One can't cause more wounds than something has to give.

A unit of 3 Single-wound models only has 3 wounds to give when all is said and done, if you hit five times, and Potentially wound five times, after saves are made and models removed you total up how many wounds were caused.

in this case three wounds were cause because the models only had three wounds to give.

Once again, wounds inflicted are irrelevant.

"For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."

Wounds inflicted is not the same as unsaved wounds caused.

Anyway. There's another thread for this.

Right, you can't cause a wound without the wound characteristic being reduced. That is just simple math/linguistics.

four wounds allocated to a one wound model = one wound caused.

Thats right. You can cause 100 wounds on a 3 wound unit for all I care - the unt ittself has only 3 wounds to lose (and save), therefore there can only ever be three more attacks.

Forkbanger: DR has clearly provided rules quotes to you on this. Unless you can refute what's written in the rulebook, its time to back down on this.

DeathReaper wrote:Right, you can't cause a wound without the wound characteristic being reduced. That is just simple math/linguistics.

four wounds allocated to a one wound model = one wound caused.

liam0404 wrote:Thats right. You can cause 100 wounds on a 3 wound unit for all I care - the unt ittself has only 3 wounds to lose (and save), therefore there can only ever be three more attacks.

Forkbanger: DR has clearly provided rules quotes to you on this. Unless you can refute what's written in the rulebook, its time to back down on this.

I'm having trouble finding the part of the rules where you disregard unsaved wounds in excess of those on a models profile. It's a little unclear as to what point those excess unsaved wounds stop existing.

I mean, p24 is pretty clear about how unsaved wounds are generated and then applied to a unit- "For every model that fails it's save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course, this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from weapons with very high AP. Most models have a single wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."
p26 makes the situation with multi-wound models pretty clear, too- "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one wound from it's profile. Once the model has lost all of it's wounds, it is removed as a casualty."

I admit, I'm struggling to find the part where unsaved wounds simply vanish.
5 successful 'to hit' rolls.
5 successful 'to wound' rolls.
5 failed armour saves, which means 5 unsaved wounds- once again, "For every model that fails it's save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound."
???????
3 unsaved wounds.
Casualties removed.

If you could fill in the blank there with some rules, that would be super.

Unsaved wounds <> inflicted wounds.

liam0404 wrote:Thats right. You can cause 100 wounds on a 3 wound unit for all I care - the unt ittself has only 3 wounds to lose (and save), therefore there can only ever be three more attacks.

Forkbanger: DR has clearly provided rules quotes to you on this. Unless you can refute what's written in the rulebook, its time to back down on this.

What has he quoted?

If anything the other people are actually quoting rules, while Death seems to be quoting more RAI, not RAW, or the RAW he is using is in the combat resolution, which even in these cases resolution hasn't even come into effect.

Please start using the page ref to what your saying if its an actual quote and not your opinion on logistical or in a different section of the rules.